Unpopular opinions

[ghosthousecorns]

A rack system can still provide the activity and mental stimulus for a snake that cohabbing in a tank with another snake can. It depends on whether the keeper puts in things it can climb on, in, or under. If you don't believe me go look for some pics of Nanci's rack system.
Also I have never had a shed problem while keeping snakes in a rack system but when keeping snakes in a tank, I have. At one time when I first started keeping corns I had all of them in tanks, a tank on almost every piece of furniture. The issues with humidity and keeping the temps right were always coming up. With a rack system I can have the temps exactly where I want and my snakes have been thriving. and their "drawers" (I like tubs better myself) are not dusky, they are clean and have fresh aspen in them to burrow in.
If you have one corn or 100 doesn't matter, it's whether you are meeting the needs of your animals.

 

[MysticExotics]

A rack system can still provide the activity and mental stimulus for a snake that cohabbing in a tank with another snake can. It depends on whether the keeper puts in things it can climb on, in, or under. If you don't believe me go look for some pics of Nanci's rack system.
Also I have never had a shed problem while keeping snakes in a rack system but when keeping snakes in a tank, I have. At one time when I first started keeping corns I had all of them in tanks, a tank on almost every piece of furniture. The issues with humidity and keeping the temps right were always coming up. With a rack system I can have the temps exactly where I want and my snakes have been thriving. and their "drawers" (I like tubs better myself) are not dusky, they are clean and have fresh aspen in them to burrow in.
If you have one corn or 100 doesn't matter, it's whether you are meeting the needs of your animals.

Well stated & I agree 100%!

 

[Naagas]

I don't think the OP even read my last post.

However, I think the point he is trying to make is that he doesn't like being told how to house his snakes by breeders who practice inbreeding or charge "too much" for their snakes.


He won't name any names or give any data:
-but apparently shoving two snakes in a ten gallon is the same as having a rack system.
-Also, breeding for color is only ok if you outbreed, but who k owe how far you have to outbreed for it to be ok? (corns are all pretty closely related, especially certain morphs).
- you should never charge what your morph is worth, no matter how long and hard you have worked on the hobby (because you just got lucky)

Am I starting to get the gist of it?

Oh, and if you don't sex all your snakes properly, it is your own fault if they die.

The OP is a harsh one.

I just was reading about how they breed lab mice to their parents for 100s of generations, in order to make the stock more "pure" and heartier.

Also, I'm happy to know that I can make a quick buck by inbreeding my corns.

 

[visceralrepulsion]

Like I said to each their own....but why would anyone want an animal they're going to shove in a drawer? Can someone really give equal attention to dozens of animals? Though I know snakes don't necessarily seek human attention, they do need to be looked over and have their behavior changes noted and other things that a good PET owner does to sustain a healhty and happy animal, (which i prefer to call a pet). Not ALL rack systems are some form of evil, but rack systems with no mental stimuli and insufficient room do exist. I can't condone those kinds of conditions. Also, I would find it quite difficult to keep up with the health of 100 animals, and their needs. Like I stated before I just don't believe in collecting animals. It teeters on hoarding in some cases. However, I'm entitled to my beliefs, as are all of you. Each snake is different, and though you may have had trouble with shedding in a tank but not in a rack system, that may have been a completely irrellevant connection you're making between the enclosure, when it's actually the animal. (Not saying you don't know your animal or it's habits.) This is just an example. I'm not pointing fingers here, if that's what it seems like....

 

[Outcast]

Visceralrepulsion, I will let you know if I have problems with sheds as soon as I switch over to a rack system... Because I do as it stands right now, especially in the dry state I live in. Though I think I know what will happen, I will be able to control the humidity and temps a whole lot better in my future rack, Oh and my snakes will all be in clear tubs so that I can keep an eye on them and check up on them daily....

Also, you stating that racks are bad because of the lack of mental stimuli, I have seen plenty of large tanks that were more bland than most of the rack pictures that are floating around these boards.

 

[cthulhu73]

Ok just got home from work but here gos nothing...

VickyChaiTea
I agree that cohabbing DOES come with more risk, but I also believe an experienced well educated owner can still maintain happy and healthy pets that happen to share an enclosure.

Starsevol
"competing for resources" implies a lack or insufficient supply of said resources and that is not at all what I'm talking about at all.

Cmalchow
You think she feels attacked read this thread through MY point of view.
I'm not on a first name basis with anyone here so I'm not certain who Beth is and I certainly did not mean to attack anyone. Beth I apologize if you felt attacked.

Ghosthouse
Right on!! You managed to be informative and non combative thank you!!!!

Naagas
I not sure I should even waste my effort on you.

"I don't think the OP even read my last post."
*I responded to several key points so I'm not sure what your getting at.


"However, I think the point he is trying to make is that he doesn't like being told how to house his snakes by breeders who practice inbreeding or charge "too much" for their snakes. "
*Your quite wrong not my point at all, and your assessment of my intent further showcases your ignorance.


"He won't name any names or give any data:
-but apparently shoving two snakes in a ten gallon is the same as having a rack system.
-Also, breeding for color is only ok if you outbreed, but who k owe how far you have to outbreed for it to be ok? (corns are all pretty closely related, especially certain morphs).
- you should never charge what your morph is worth, no matter how long and hard you have worked on the hobby (because you just got lucky)"
* I was the one who started the thread and was asking questions so why was I put on the defensive?
-where did I say this? Is putting words in my mouth your way of trying to discredit me or my experience. Your tactics are shallow and childish at best.
"Am I starting to get the gist of it?"
-NOT EVEN CLOSE

"Oh, and if you don't sex all your snakes properly, it is your own fault if they die. "
*Yes any accidents that may occur DUE TO IMPROPER RECORD KEEPING is the fault of the keeper. How do you not grasp the concept of being responsible for the animals in your care.

 

[cthulhu73]

I was not trying to stir up the cohab debate. I stated early on that I understood the pros and cons. Many of you barged in with absolutely NOTHING constructive so please if the topic doesn't interest you don't read it and please just move along quietly.

Ok trying to get back on track. To make this as simple as possible I will again ask my yet unanswered questions...

What evidence is there to support the idea that a rack causes less stress than cohabitation.

In a hobby where we already manipulate genetics at our whim for no other reason than our own enjoyment, why is the line drawn at altering learned behavior?

 

[bitsy]

* I was the one who started the thread and was asking questions so why was I put on the defensive?

I'm afraid it's up to you whether you take a defensive position or not. Other people cannot control how you approach the debate that you began. Although calling your thread "Unpopular Opinions", I guess that you already knew that you were posing questions that you may be called upon to defend.

There's no point asking for an open debate and then complaining when people take a position contrary to your own and you feel obliged to defend it.


You say:

I was not trying to stir up the cohab debate. I stated early on that I understood the pros and cons.

...and yet you ended your first post with:

More later lets see where this gets us first.

You invited discussion. A debate about cohabbing is where it got you - pretty inevitably, given the the preferences of this board at present.

I'm still waiting to hear how I make a quick buck from breeding Corns. Please give the name of a rich Corn breeder who got that way from breeding Corns. You seem to have decided that the morph development process is exploitative; bad for snakes and only done for profit (or our own selfish enjoyment - you seem to have now changed your position on that point). I disagree for the reasons previously stated. Now it's your turn to refute my position. That's the nature of a debate.

I think you're made a few good points along the way but I'm not seeing you back them up with facts or supporting evidence. We all have opinions (as you can see from the length of the thread).

Many of you barged in with absolutely NOTHING constructive so please if the topic doesn't interest you don't read it and please just move along quietly.

You don't get to tell people what to do. Sorry. This discussion is between a group of people over whom you have no control.

 

[ShenziSixaxis]

Snake keeping is a continually developing hobby. In twenty years we may have thermo regulating substrate and remember back on the old days of under tank heaters.

That. Sounds. AWESOME.

/end random post

 

[Outcast]

In a hobby where we already manipulate genetics at our whim for no other reason than our own enjoyment, why is the line drawn at altering learned behavior?

So, how do you know they have "learned" to get along?
Do you have some kind of magical happiness device that gauges the amount of stress your snakes have, that are caused by each other?
This is not a Face Book game with fish, that tells you how happy they are in your tank....

Also, I have brought this up before, and will do again. You keep promising that it was not your intent on causing fights, but every time someone gives a reason as to why not to Cohab, you attack them.... Your reasoning seems counterproductive. Honestly I am still trying to figure out if you are really trying to learn new things, or just trying to start a squabble with some of the long standing members here.

 

[ratsncorns]

You cant sex snakes like you can a cat or dog. Top corn snake breeders can even get it wrong once in a while. Beth (starsevol) got a snake that was sexed by a reputable breeder. Heck, I get snakes that the breeder tells me the sex, and I take their word for it. Beth's snake died because it was cohabbed. Simple. Had she not cohabbed, that snake would still be alive. Granted, its not something that happens all the time, but the risk is there. That risk is enough to keep me from doing it.

I used to keep all my snakes in tanks, in the beginning. But, my snakes would never come out, and if they had their heads peaking out of their hide, they would pull back in as soon as they saw me. I was a little iffy on switching to a rack system, but I have two hides and some branches, and nice fake vegetation in each tub. Plus plenty of aspen for them to burrow. They are out all the time now, and most dont even utilize their hides. I get far more pleasure from them in a rack than a tank. That and they seem to be more active. But, thats just my experience.

 

[visceralrepulsion]

I'm not even going to continue with this thread, everyone has selective reading apparently....

 

[ratsncorns]

Why even bother posting that? Just stop replying.

 

[tspuckler]

CB corns should never be released into the wild as they would not know how to survive.

The biggest problem with releasing captive snakes is messing up a wild gene pool that took many years to evolve.
There is also the idea of introducing pathogens from captive snakes into the wild. This would be especially true if you kept other snakes/herps in your collection.
Snake rely mainly on instinct to survive there's no "know how" involved.

Also in the wild inbreeding is less likely to happen but someone in the hobby forces daughter to father and creates a mutant with small scales and no scales on the head and its considered a "cool" thing the deformed snakes are "keepers"?

This is an assumption that's not backed up by any real evidence. We have no idea how much inbreeding happens in the wild.
We do know that in certain parts of Florida Anerythristic corns could be found in the wild. This would indicate that inbreeding is occurring.

I have seen "solitary confinement" collections that were absolute nightmares.

Co-habbing Corn Snakes causes them stress. If you keep a pet, you should be committed to giving it the best care possible. By co-habbing you're not.
I've seen co-habbed collections that were nightmares as well - it doesn't prove anything.

I understand that many variations "could" exist in the wild but that doesn't change the fact that they DON'T,

Ummmmm, yes, they do. They may not be refined via selective breeding but variation is a basic theme of evolution.

But I have also seen many specimens that are far from what I would consider as hearty as the less desirable common types.

I've seen this too, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen in the wild as well. It's survival of the fittest.

But if the "snake gods" can look down from the mountain to judge us for our how we house our animals should they not too be judged for irresponsible breeding decisions.

Maybe, but have you ever seen the variation in breeds of dogs? They're far greater than Corn Snakes. And all domestic dogs are the same species - they got their "purebred" traits by the same method as Corn SNakes. If you have a problem with this, you should post your views on a Dog Forum - there are far more dog owners than snake owners.

Please explain how a rack system removes stress from snakes they can still smell each other and are aware of one another?

You are making an assumption. At any rate even if they could sense each other I think it's less stressful that being in the constant physical presence of a snake that you cannot get away from.
This seems to be supported by many cases where one co-habbing snake regurgitates, but when kept singly, it stops regurging. I've seen this happen several times.

 

[cthulhu73]

Ok I have apologized to those I "attacked" I have repeatedly thanked those who offered informative responses. But it has become clear that the vast majority of you are simply content to adopt a mob mentality. Most of the responses I have gotten are from people who either cant read or simply don't understand the concept of what I'm trying to say. Your all more interested in persecuting my choice of words than discussing the ideas presented to you. This thread has been so twisted and so much space wasted on childish back and forth BS that I fear it is past a point of redemption. So In realizing that I will simply let it die. Perhaps I will try again to present my case without using any "red flag" terminology. But this is not the time or place.

Once again to those I offended I apologize to those of you who actually responded intelligently thank you.

 

[Christen]

Ok I have apologized to those I "attacked" I have repeatedly thanked those who offered informative responses. But it has become clear that the vast majority of you are simply content to adopt a mob mentality. Most of the responses I have gotten are from people who either cant read or simply don't understand the concept of what I'm trying to say. Your all more interested in persecuting my choice of words than discussing the ideas presented to you. This thread has been so twisted and so much space wasted on childish back and forth BS that I fear it is past a point of redemption. So In realizing that I will simply let it die. Perhaps I will try again to present my case without using any "red flag" terminology. But this is not the time or place.

Once again to those I offended I apologize to those of you who actually responded intelligently thank you.

I am not sure who is not understanding who. You want to basically know, how we know snakes have not evolved to live with each other in captivity. Unfortunatly, it still goes back to co-hab or not. There has been many examples of recent experiences of why snakes can not live together which IMO shows that they have not evolved to live together.

 

[Khaman]

...but rack systems with no mental stimuli .

When was the last time you saw a snake play with a toy? What mental stimuli do you think a snake requires? A squeaky mouse maybe?

 

[Allalaskan]

I can feel the love in this thread........

 

[starsevol]

Animals do evolve, but it takes millions of years. Snakes are not social now, and I doubt that a blink of time in captivity (comparitively speaking) will change that.
Even dogs still have many of the instincts and mannerisms of wolves. Ever notice how they circle before lying down?

 

[patches152]

Animals do evolve, but it takes millions of years. Snakes are not social now, and I doubt that a blink of time in captivity (comparitively speaking) will change that.
Even dogs still have many of the instincts and mannerisms of wolves. Ever notice how they circle before lying down?

evolution can happen in one generation, as long as that new "mutation" gives the new species an advantage that wasn't present before. however, for that "mutation" to be a long lasting advantage it has to be something that becomes part of the whole population, that's what takes "millions of years".

to the OP, we've already been down this road. essentially the resolution we came to, albeit not a complete consensus, was that as long as you have enough resources available, don't cohab opposite sex (to avoid the whole unplanned pregnancy thing), don't cohab baby snakes (to avoid cannibalism) and you are able to monitor the snakes and observe any actions that would imply stress (assuming you're experienced and educated on the behavior of your own snakes) you can make it work. just like not all snakes will eat f/t food, not all snakes will be opposed to cohabbing.

it's not an absolute situation, it's a case by case scenario...