Unpopular opinions

[Jdog3131]

Please explain how a rack system removes stress from snakes

They do NOT have to deal with competing for the best hide.

how did you favorite snake DIE from co habbed?

They become stressed and don't eat.Stress is bad for you so why not for them?

 

[starsevol]

Please explain how a rack system removes stress from snakes they can still smell each other and are aware of one another? Disease can still travel through a rack system. So WHY (other than being VERY convenient) are they better? I'm not fighting I REALLY want to hear then answer.

Stars how did you favorite snake DIE from co habbed?
"I consider forcing a lifestyle on a primitive lifeform that is not equipped to deal with it animal abuse."

But never mind the stress of breeding and the complications that can result from it?

A snake smelling another one is not the same as having to share a space. It would be compared to you seeing a person you hate across the street, and being locked in a room with that person.

As far as disease travelling through a rack, that is why every new snake must be quarantined away from all others for a minimum of 3 months.

I had 2 males, that had to be housed together because the heating element in one of my racks had a meltdown, melted a tub, and nearly caused a fire. I ordered another rack but it took a little over 2 weeks for it to arrive.
A few weeks later one of those males laid eggs, became eggbound, and died. If they had not been together it would not have happened. And if I had wanted them to breed (had I known Kelsey was a female) I would have provided her with an eggbox and she most likely would not have become eggbound.

As far as the stress of breeding, they breed in the wild. It is completely natural for them to breed and produce young. In a captive environment they are actually better off because a good keeper will make sure they aren't too immature to breed, and have a decent weight. And if there are complications they are taken to a vet.

 

[Lennycorn]

Wild corns suffer no stress??? No stress from not finding a food source or suitable habitat. This against the thought of cohabing is better for the snake because it less stressing for the keeper which could definitely impact the quality of life of the animals. !!

Wow!! Time to get a pet rock then.
I give up now.

 

[Outcast]

Wild corns suffer no stress??? No stress from not finding a food source or suitable habitat. This against the thought of cohabing is better for the snake because it less stressing for the keeper which could definitely impact the quality of life of the animals. !!

Wow!! Time to get a pet rock then.
I give up now.

If you give up, you can send your snakes to me....lol

 

[cthulhu73]

I'm interested in the concept of making a "quick buck" from breeding Corn Snakes. In all the years I've been on this board I've never heard of anyone managing it.

Major breeders like Kathy and Rich Z sweat buckets for years, originating morphs along the way, and come out with a small profit. Most of the time they need to rely on other income to make sure bills are paid.

"quick buck" was a relative term. I understand the blood sweat and tears that come with a successful breeding project. But I also remember when Lavenders were $200-$300 I understand that some people are good honest humble folk. But if you have never seen a breeder charge an insane price for (insert new hotness) then you must live with your head in the sand.

I have seen people go from a rags to riches from a lucky accident. Wasn't corns it was retics but the idea is the same.

 

[starsevol]

Wild corns suffer no stress??? No stress from not finding a food source or suitable habitat. This against the thought of cohabing is better for the snake because it less stressing for the keeper which could definitely impact the quality of life of the animals. !!

Wow!! Time to get a pet rock then.
I give up now.

Of course wild corns suffer stress! But it is not caused by forcing them to compete for resources with another snake.
Corns in the wild suffer stress from lack of food, or predation, or parasites and live shorter more brutal lives because of it. Is that what we want for our PETS?

 

[ZoologyGirl]

The biggest argument I saw against cohab was that it was unnatural

This is why I never use this argument. It's not a good argument because by removing a snake from it's natural environment, the whole situation is already "unnatural".

That's why I go with a cost/benefit analysis instead. What are the costs and benefits of cohabitation? What are the costs and benefits of housing everyone seperately?

Cohabitation:

Costs: Possible stress. Possible cannibalism. If one regurges, you don't know who it was. If one has funny poo, you don't know who's it is. If one gets sick, there is more of a chance of the other getting sick. Etc...

Benefits: Cheaper to house multiple snakes in the same enclosure. Some people like to see snakes supposedly interacting. (Pretty much the only benefits I can see are those that are beneficial to the human, rather than the snake).

House Separately:

Costs: Have to pay for more housing. Don't get to watch snakes [supposedly] being "bestest friends".

Benefits: No risk of cannibalism or stress due to spacial competition. You know who the regurges and poops belong to. Etc...

Looking at it this way, my decision was quite easy. I just see no reason to keep snakes together, other than reasons that are beneficial to the human rather than the snake. Nobody is going to convince me that their snakes are "bestest friends".

 

[cthulhu73]

I had 2 males, that had to be housed together because the heating element in one of my racks had a meltdown, melted a tub, and nearly caused a fire. I ordered another rack but it took a little over 2 weeks for it to arrive. A few weeks later one of those males laid eggs, became eggbound, and died. If they had not been together it would not have happened. And if I had wanted them to breed (had I known Kelsey was a female) I would have provided her with an eggbox and she most likely would not have become eggbound.

Not to sound harsh but that was you fault being housed together didn't kill your snake YOU NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU HAD killed your snake.

 

[Lennycorn]

This is why I never use this argument. It's not a good argument because by removing a snake from it's natural environment, the whole situation is already "unnatural".

That's why I go with a cost/benefit analysis instead. What are the costs and benefits of cohabitation? What are the costs and benefits of housing everyone seperately?

Cohabitation:

Costs: Possible stress. Possible cannibalism. If one regurges, you don't know who it was. If one has funny poo, you don't know who's it is. If one gets sick, there is more of a chance of the other getting sick. Etc...

Benefits: Cheaper to house multiple snakes in the same enclosure. Some people like to see snakes supposedly interacting. (Pretty much the only benefits I can see are those that are beneficial to the human, rather than the snake).

House Separately:

Costs: Have to pay for more housing. Don't get to watch snakes [supposedly] being "bestest friends".

Benefits: No risk of cannibalism or stress due to spacial competition. You know who the regurges and poops belong to. Etc...

Looking at it this way, my decision was quite easy. I just see no reason to keep snakes together, other than reasons that are beneficial to the human rather than the snake. Nobody is going to convince me that their snakes are "bestest friends".

Just to let you know....I read it!!!

 

[starsevol]

Not to sound harsh but that was you fault being housed together didn't kill your snake YOU NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU HAD killed your snake.

Sound as harsh as you wish, I know it is my fault Kelsey is dead. The guy I bought her from told me she was a male, due to her tail shape. At the time I did not know how to pop or probe. I took him at his word.
Of course, if she had not been housed with Sniper AT ALL, she would still be here.

 

[cthulhu73]

This is why I never use this argument. It's not a good argument because by removing a snake from it's natural environment, the whole situation is already "unnatural".

That's why I go with a cost/benefit analysis instead. What are the costs and benefits of cohabitation? What are the costs and benefits of housing everyone seperately?

Cohabitation:

Costs: Possible stress. Possible cannibalism. If one regurges, you don't know who it was. If one has funny poo, you don't know who's it is. If one gets sick, there is more of a chance of the other getting sick. Etc...

Benefits: Cheaper to house multiple snakes in the same enclosure. Some people like to see snakes supposedly interacting. (Pretty much the only benefits I can see are those that are beneficial to the human, rather than the snake).

House Separately:

Costs: Have to pay for more housing. Don't get to watch snakes [supposedly] being "bestest friends".

Benefits: No risk of cannibalism or stress due to spacial competition. You know who the regurges and poops belong to. Etc...

Looking at it this way, my decision was quite easy. I just see no reason to keep snakes together, other than reasons that are beneficial to the human rather than the snake. Nobody is going to convince me that their snakes are "bestest friends".

Let me start with a big THANK YOU!!!! This is the kind of informative well thought out response I desired.
I still don't understand how racks alleviate all stress as all the factors other than physical presence are the same.

 

[Lennycorn]

Sound as harsh as you wish, I know it is my fault Kelsey is dead. The guy I bought her from told me she was a male, due to her tail shape. At the time I did not know how to pop or probe. I took him at his word.
Of course, if she had not been housed with Sniper AT ALL, she would still be here.

So starsevol, You are saying that because you housed two snakes together is the reason why one died!!

 

[starsevol]

So starsevol, You are saying that because you housed two snakes together is the reason why one died!!

Dave, I am so going to smack you!

If I had not put them together, Kelsey would have died of old age being called "my boy" instead of "my girl".

 

[Lennycorn]

Well, beat this dead horse!! :bowdown:

lol

 

[bitsy]

"quick buck" was a relative term. I understand the blood sweat and tears that come with a successful breeding project. But I also remember when Lavenders were $200-$300 I understand that some people are good honest humble folk. But if you have never seen a breeder charge an insane price for (insert new hotness) then you must live with your head in the sand.

I don't view $200-300 for a new morph as "insane". The breeder will have bought the parents and/or raised them for three years to get to the point of breeding. Three years after they first produced Lavs, the price went through the floor because then many other people could breed them. It's only the first two or three generations of a morph that command more money. After that, the cycle begins again. It's not a "quick" process by any standards.

I simply don't know of any Corn breeders who live comfortably just from breeding Corns - even those who have originated morphs. Rich Z once made a detailed post of the effort he had to put in caring for his collection. The pro-rata hourly rate he made wouldn't have kept a high school dropout stocking shelves in Walmart.

But if you have never seen a breeder charge an insane price for (insert new hotness) then you must live with your head in the sand.

If you think anyone gets rich from breeding Corns long-term (show me someone who originated a new morph with a short-term project then got out?), then it's you who have your head in the sand. I can't comment on other snakes, but it for sure does not happen with Corns. Ultimately, a snake is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Perhaps Corn keepers as just more sensible about what they'll pay.

Why not raise the issue on a Retic board? I don't think it applies here.

 

[chris68]

But I have also seen many specimens that are far from what I would consider as hearty as the less desirable common types. I have also noticed that the more recessive traits you combine the less likely it is for the animal to be a hearty animal

Cite some examples, please

I know several breeders who have gone "back to basics" if you will because of this

Anyone we know?

But if the "snake gods" can look down from the mountain to judge us for our how we house our animals should they not too be judged for irresponsible breeding decisions.

Who art these "gods" thou speaketh of?

I understand that producing (and marketing) it first is how the game is played. But I also believe that as breeders a certain responsibility should be taken to strengthen the line by introducing "new blood" instead of just turning it back on itself for the quick buck. It is unfortunate that "birth defects" have become comparable to winning the lottery.

If you hatch out the next "big thing" and still feel unfortunate about it I'll relieve your burden

"Responsible breeding" comes down to the individual breeder. No one is sure how much line breeding can be done before we start to see some kind of "breakdown". Also being an intelligent consumer doesn't hurt either, but lets not go there......

Nothing we do anymore with corns replicates any kind of resemblance to it's natural state. We are now working with "Pantherophis domesticus"...and I'll have some for sale come Summer...

 

[Dreamsnake]

I am so sick of this argument. Why must everyone complain about the one snake one tank rule? Whenever people put to many animals in one space problems occur: dogs fight, cats go off litter box, or run away, hamsters and mice kill each other, the list goes on. Animals need their space and unless you know exactly what each snake thinks, what each snake's poo looks like, or how to tell which animal regurged then explain this to the rest of us. I'd really like to know what scientific method you used discovering this information.

 

[Christen]

Cthulu, it seems to me that you are intent on starting a heated debate.

I absolutely agree with Outcast. I know what thread you are talking about and there are tons of examples on why not to house your corns together and I am not sure why you felt the need to bring it up yet again.

Attacking Beth like you did was completely uncalled for IMO. Either you have not read enough of her threads or really read just one. She knows that was her fault, wether they were the same sex or not. She wants others to learn from her mistakes and that is what this forum is all about, to learn from others that have had that experience. To this day, to read her threads about that situation, you can tell that it still hurts her very much.

 

[visceralrepulsion]

I don't necessarily think its okay to tamper with genetics, but its going to be done. I dont necessarily believe that cohabing is any worse than shoving your snake into a small drawer with a bowl of water and a paper towel etc either. What kind of life is it for a snake to live in dusky drawer with no mental stimuli? Is is better to be in a large tank with another snake and have mental stimuli and naturalistic surroundings? Maybe so. The benefactors of racks being for space/money saving far outweighs an owner cohabing for space/money saving. I know I just opened a can of worms, and will probably get plenty of hate-mail about how racks are efficient, and the snakes are happy and healthy, etc. However, this is just my opinion on the topic at hand. I would never put my snakes in anything but a large tank. If you don't have the room for 20 large tanks in your home, maybe you don't "need" 20 snakes/reptiles. To each their own, everyone will raise and care for their animal as they see fit, but in my opinion I would never use a rack system. I don't believe in animal collections, I believe in pets.

 

[VickyChaiTea]

First of all, almost no one uses the "It's unnatural" argument because that argument is flawed.

The argument we DO use is the well known fact that housing your snakes together puts them at risks they would not otherwise experience if they were housed separately, no matter how well they are treated otherwise. No one is speaking in absolutes about this. If you housed two corn snakes in an enclosure the size of a large house, you would not have a problem. The only ways to avoid the problem of co-habitating corn snakes are to house them separately, or to house them in something so incredibly large that they almost never come into contact with each other. Which is to say that you have to keep them in something that makes it as though they aren't even kept together.

There ARE risks. We have proven this time and time again. If you want me to get your links to examples, I will gather them in large numbers.

Now please, tell me, do you think that there are no more risks involved in housing them together than there are in housing them by themselves? Do you think being housed together somehow benefits the snakes? If so, please provide proof.