Vermiculite or Sphagnum Moss?

[_Sam_]

Soo I have a dilema....eggs from my Snow *should* be arriving soon if my snake is indeed gravid; she shed a few days ago. She seems really active, slithering around her cage and poking her nose at the glass and everything, so I put a lay box in it with moist paper towels in it b/c I didn't have any moss....she seemed to like that, and kept going in and out...now I have most sphagnum moss in there so hopefully that will do better!
Anyways...I also bought some vermiculite just in case, so I was wondering if someone with more experience could tell me which would be better? I've been looking at old threads but I still need just a little more info....if I go with the vermiculte, could someone please tell me how to moisten it properly? The last thing I want to doo is to dehydrate/drown them.
Also, should the vermiculate be packed down and just have the eggs laying on the flat surface, or should the vermic. be loosened up a bit to sort of halfway cover the eggs? I'm thinking that covering them with moss would be a good idea from what I've read, but the main incubation substrate is what I'm wondering about. Thanks!

 

[_Sam_]

Parents

And here are the parents, just for fun! A creamsicle dad and a snow mom.

 

[_Sam_]

gah

Agh I'm really sorry to post AGAIN, but I forgot to mention that I believe my vermiculite to be 'fine' grade...that's all they had. The grains are really small like sand, not big and chunky. Hope that's not too much of a problem.

 

[woodz61]

Vermiculite! Definately.

Mix the vermiculite with water and then squeeze as much water out of it that you can, so it is damp to touch but not soaking wet.

Keep it loose and bury eggs halfway.

Keep the eggs in an air tight container or in a ventilated container that has solid top (no holes it top so the water condenses and get reabsorbed by vermiculite.

Keep checking on the humidity during incubation. You may find you don't need to moisten again. If you do there is two good ways to do it. Either place a bowl of water in the same container in vermiculite(it makes the air more humid, also when the water evaporates and the condenses and is reabsorbed by the vermiculite.) or carefully spray water around the eggs being careful not to wet the eggs.

I prefer the first method.

Moss tends to dry out quicker and is more likely to carry parasites.

So vermiculite is the way to go! Also the grade(size i.e fine or coarse) of vermiculite doesn't matter although the coarse grade does tend to hold water better.

Hope this helps.

 

[Liselle]

In case you are asking what's a better medium for the laybox, I don't really think it makes THAT much of a difference. If your female likes the moss, I think you should let her keep it. woodz61 was apparently answering to which one is better for incubation.

 

[Jynx]

Were it up to me, I would curse the Vermiculite & perlite companies to Hades. For a while, I would swear by perlite & vermiculite, but lately I have had nothing but problems with the 2, despite other peoples' successes. I started to use sphagnum moss recently and have yet to lose a single egg... out of an average of about 75 a season! If you ask me, those odds are pretty good. Not only has it helped to keep my eggs at the proper moisture level, but it provides an all over moisture. I had a female double clutch on me while I was out of town for the weekend. She hadn't even gone into pre-lay blue yet, so I figured I was in the clear for a small vacation. When I came home, she had laid the clutch & it had sat for about a day or two. I figured the clutch was lost, but on a whim I loaded them up in some moss & let them sit. Within 2 days, the eggs were perfectly healthy!

Moss tends to dry out quicker and is more likely to carry parasites

Not sure where you are getting that info from, but it couldn't be farther from the truth. And an "air tight" will encourage the growth of anaerobic bacteria, which can be fatal to the eggs. Not to mention that it won't promote oxygen exchange. However, getting a 100% air tight container is rare. There will always be some air exchange. Oxygen molecules are pretty small

The chemical properties of spaghnum moss have a HUGE role in fighting microbial infection. Because the composition is more acidic to protect the plant itself from bacterial & microbial attack, this helps to fight mold & prevent the egg from going bad. Mind you, it doesn't keep the egg 100% sterile... bacteria can proliferate in any conditions if its a strong enough strain, but I have NEVER been disappointed with the performance.

 

[woodz61]

Not sure where you are getting that info from, but it couldn't be farther from the truth. And an "air tight" will encourage the growth of anaerobic bacteria, which can be fatal to the eggs. Not to mention that it won't promote oxygen exchange. However, getting a 100% air tight container is rare. There will always be some air exchange. Oxygen molecules are pretty small

With an air tight container you must take the top of at least once a week for fresh air exchange. When you are nearing the last days it is best to "air" every day.

Also sphagnum moss does dry out quickly if you are not using an air tight container. Some species of sphagnum moss form anaerobic acidic bogs and hence encourage huge amounts of growth of anaerobic bacteria.

Sphagnum moss can also harbour the chronic fungal disease, sporotrichosis. Not a good thing for eggs is fungus!

It can also affect humans if it is able to enter the blood stream via skin abraisions, eyes etc etc.

A final note is that most people do not what type of sphagnum moss they are using. In the UK most sphagnum moss used by herpetologists originates from Scotland in the Scottish peat bogs. As Scotland is usually a very cold and wet place the sphagnum moss has adapted to this. It's great for holding moisture but not in high levels of heat. A lot of sphagnum moss is from moist tundra areas. So unless you know exactly what sphagnum moss you are using be wary.

Vermiculite on the other hand is a non-toxic mineral which is mostly chemically identical where ever it is mined from. Nearly all of vermiculite in the United States comes from the US. South Africa, China, Brazil tend to provide for Europe and Asia.

Hope this helps.

 

[_Sam_]

Another question

Thanks for the replies! I have another question....I just bought a hovabator, and it's all set up now just so I can test it out. The thermometer thats laying on top of the containers inside of it say about 90 degrees F, but when I took out the containers that will soon contain eggs and felt inside of it, it really seemed pretty cool inside. Should I raise the temp. even though it says 90, or does it just take awhile for the inside of the egg box to warm up?

 

[Jynx]

Looks like you must have done alot of research. Google is a great thing, eh?

If I were you Sam, I would try both out and find the best that works for you. I find that moss works better for me, as I live in a desert, which is a very dry environment. Odd that something that dries out so quickly keeps my eggs evenly well moistened. Some people prefer vermiculite & perlite. Hell, I've heard of people that have used moist paper shreds & have had good results. You can do research until you are blue in the face (see above) but you need to find what works best for you. If you want to see who uses what, then perhaps you should use a poll instead? I happen to know quite a bit about the composition of what median I use, as well as how it works for me. As his research states, look like it is a good thing that we are in the US and not in UK eh? Either way, good luck to you & your future clutch!

 

[Jynx]

Thanks for the replies! I have another question....I just bought a hovabator, and it's all set up now just so I can test it out. The thermometer thats laying on top of the containers inside of it say about 90 degrees F, but when I took out the containers that will soon contain eggs and felt inside of it, it really seemed pretty cool inside. Should I raise the temp. even though it says 90, or does it just take awhile for the inside of the egg box to warm up?

With a dry container, the air will not warm quite as easily. The moisture will help quite a bit. Moist heat is much more efficient than dry heat. I would place the median & furture egg box in the hovabator, letting them reach the desired temp before placing the eggs in the container. This way, you avoid temperature shock. Hovabators are great for small clutches. You made a good purchase! However, I would avoid raising the temp as 90 degrees is on the high end already. keep the box in there a few days, and you should see the temp difference.

 

[woodz61]

Looks like you must have done alot of research. Google is a great thing, eh?

If I were you Sam, I would try both out and find the best that works for you. I find that moss works better for me, as I live in a desert, which is a very dry environment. Odd that something that dries out so quickly keeps my eggs evenly well moistened. Some people prefer vermiculite & perlite. Hell, I've heard of people that have used moist paper shreds & have had good results. You can do research until you are blue in the face (see above) but you need to find what works best for you. If you want to see who uses what, then perhaps you should use a poll instead? I happen to know quite a bit about the composition of what median I use, as well as how it works for me. As his research states, look like it is a good thing that we are in the US and not in UK eh? Either way, good luck to you & your future clutch!

Actually its called experience. I didn't simply "google" this as most people would know to never trust google or things like that. Personal experience in herpetology is a far greater resource than small websites.

With your regards to UK and US advantages..... Vermiculite is the same no matter where you get it from and hence no difference!! The majority of the Sphagnum moss that is used in the US is most likely to be from Canada and where is it native in Canada is cold and moist. Canada is very similar to Scotland with regards to it's eco-systems. So once more no difference.

 

[tbtusk]

I'm not sure which medium to suggest. I liked the idea of sphagnum moss this year but I had a few problems with my clutch, probably not associated with the moss at all, but I think I might try vermiculite next year. We'll see.

The one thing I will say is that you NEED to lower the tempature in your incubator. more than that, you should set up the egg container completely, as said, and then move the thermometer into the egg container were the eggs will soon be. That will you to see what the tempatuer is inside the egg container, not just inside the incubator. Once that'ts done adjust the hovabator until the thermometer reads the temp you want. I'd go with 82 or so, but in the end that's your choice as long as it's with in the eggs' torlerable levels (about 76 to 85).

Good luck with your eggs!

 

[Jynx]

Sam, I would like to apologize for this outburst on your thread. I hope we have given you enough info to help get you started.

Actually its called experience. I didn't simply "google" this as most people would know to never trust google or things like that. Personal experience in herpetology is a far greater resource than small websites.

If you are going to start rashly questioning peoples' experience, thus belittling their love & knowledge of the hobby (especially on your 40-something-th post), I suggest you find a different forum. That sort of behavior has no home here. It is not insult to say someone is wrong, just as it is no insult to say someone is dead. But it is an insult to imply what you just did.

 

[jazzgeek]

Vermiculite is the same no matter where you get it from and hence no difference!!

It's probably best if you qualify this so the inexperienced are not confused.

"Pure" vermiculite is the same.....but many garden shops will sell vermiculite that's treated and/or mixed with fertilizers, antifungals, and other minerals.

You definitely don't want to use that as an incubation medium.

regards,
jazz

 

[jazzgeek]

....just as it is no insult to say someone is dead.

Oddly, "Perez Hilton" said that Fidel Castro died this past Friday; many were insulted.

Not over the possibility of Castro's death, mind you. Over the idea that "Perez Hilton" is a credible news source.

regards,
jazz

 

[Jynx]

Oddly, "Perez Hilton" said that Fidel Castro died this past Friday; many were insulted.

Not over the possibility of Castro's death, mind you. Over the idea that "Perez Hilton" is a credible news source.

regards,
jazz

Well, I think there would be alot of people upset about the death of Castro. He is after all Cuba's claim to fame. He's been alive for about... what? 120 years or so? Not to mention, are you sure it was Perez? Maybe Paris? THEN I could see the reason for insult! :grin01:

The quote was actually something out of The Odyssey... and can also be found in Troy.

"It is no insult to say a dead man is dead."

Perhaps I should have used the whole quote in context to better emphasize my meaning?

 

[Joejr14]

With an air tight container you must take the top of at least once a week for fresh air exchange. When you are nearing the last days it is best to "air" every day.

You know, sometimes I really do wonder where these rules originate from. I wonder why my lavender eggs are hatching out right now when I didn't touch their container for over a month...

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

You know, sometimes I really do wonder where these rules originate from. I wonder why my lavender eggs are hatching out right now when I didn't touch their container for over a month...

I think it's proably better to err on the side of caution. But yeah, I've been reading lots of posts with authoritative "rules" lately that I've never heard before. I, too, will only check on the eggs every couple of weeks and things go just fine.

 

[jazzgeek]

Well, I think there would be alot of people upset about the death of Castro. He is after all Cuba's claim to fame. He's been alive for about... what? 120 years or so? Not to mention, are you sure it was Perez? Maybe Paris? THEN I could see the reason for insult! :grin01:

Hey, you're forgetting cigars, and the New Year's scene in "Godfather II".

Yeah, it was "Perez", thus my link in the post.

The quote was actually something out of The Odyssey... and can also be found in Troy.

"It is no insult to say a dead man is dead."

As a fan of the classics, I sure wish the producers of "Troy" would've read Homer before they made the movie....the "creative license" taken in the film was a little too broad for my tastes.

Anything for an on-screen hot monkey love scene with Brad, I guess.

regards,
jazz

 

[woodz61]

Sam, I would like to apologize for this outburst on your thread. I hope we have given you enough info to help get you started.



If you are going to start rashly questioning peoples' experience, thus belittling their love & knowledge of the hobby (especially on your 40-something-th post), I suggest you find a different forum. That sort of behavior has no home here. It is not insult to say someone is wrong, just as it is no insult to say someone is dead. But it is an insult to imply what you just did.

I never did question your experience. You questioned my experience and responded to my advice in a sarcastic and childish way. I have learnt all I have through personal experience and through advice from others with more experience than I. Considering you are 25 and have only just left childhood it may be best to keep your childish attempt at wit at bay. It is not an insult to say someone is wrong however to try to undermine them and their research is wrong.

Sending me threatening Private messages is hardly the behaviour I would expect from a person who "also happens to have a degree in microbiology & BSN. meaning what I say lacks no conviction."

This forum is about sharing personal experiences and advice to help each others and to discuss a passion of herps. You cannot simply change one's experience nor refute it because it is different that yours. So your comment of;

"If you have the experience, then I suggest you amend it."

was unacceptable.

I also do not think many users of this forum will appreciate your comments of

"Unlike most people on this site, I won't be as rash & impolite and directly call you out in the middle of a public thread."

Please save your insults and petty threatening messages for your cosmo girl magazines and "talent shows"