-
Hello!
Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.
Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....
Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.
Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.
What is all this hype about stargazer syndrome
- Thread starter Vinman
- Start date
toyah
Snakes in designer genes
Rich Z" said:
Rich, I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather be able to read and learn from half of a messy looking conversation, than be ignorant to the entire thing. Even if bits don't make sense, it'll be worth it for the bits that *do* make sense, you know?
Tula_Montage said:
If the stargazer gene is only coming from one particular line, and there is no other source of it, then outcrossing to unrelated lines would be a guarantee you'd not produce any stargazers in that generation. Unfortunately, it doesn't dilute the gene any - you just produce lots of potential carriers that can't be identified. Since the gene isn't then being selected against, you run the risk of lots of carriers being produced, and the gene then meeting other carriers two, three, fifty, generations down the line.
We know this gene came from the sunkissed line due to that line being inbred and producing affected snakes. Imagine if Kathy had never inbred her snakes, and just outcrossed and bred the original okeetees to all her different morphs, then sold them on for other people to breed to their snakes ... it could be a situation where every line you come across potentially has the stargazer gene there. If it's a recessive gene, outcrossing won't remove it, or dilute it, or fix it - it just allows it to become more prevalent in the general population.
Well, since the source of the Sunkisseds has already chimed in here, I can't see any harm in posting my emails...
Now the thing that came to my mind, especially in reference to those few instances I had years ago with some Milk Snake Phase babies is that this peculiar stargazing effect does not necessarily have to have an exclusive source of this alleged genetic Sunkissed origination. What are some symptoms of inbreeding? What about cases of the matings of two animals just being incompatible? I think there is an opportunity here for a lot of people to jump the gun and claim ANY abnormality they see in a clutch of baby snakes is being caused by this particular line. But it isn't going to necessarily be so at all. Much like many people will jump to the conclusion that ANY problems they see in their clutches are the results of inbreeding. I think there is a very strong opportunity for a new boogie man to be spotted underneath the bed and blamed for a rash of unrelated problems.
Also, one thing I have not seen mentioned in this thread (unless I just overlooked it) and was told be the person sending me the emails, was that this stargazing gene is a LETHAL gene. If that is true, then you can really only have heterozygous adults, and NEVER a homozygous adult. Simply because the animals won't live long enough to reach adulthood. IF that is true, then this will be a self limiting problem, over time, as each subsequent generation further dilutes the gene in TOTAL number of animals. For example, if you breed a het carrier to a non het carrier, there is a 50 percent chance that any one of the babies will be a carrier. Now with any two animals out of that clutch, you have these possibilities:
het x het
het x nonhet
nonhet x het
nonhet x nonhet
So there is ONLY a 25 percent chance you will pick het animals to breed together from that clutch that will produce homozygous stargazers. All of the rest of those possibilities simply reduce the possibility further of the gene being able to surface in subsequent breedings. For instance, you have a 50 percent chance of picking a het and nonhet pair. Breeding them together then gives this same result shown above, further reducing the odds of het x het pairing up. And of course, there is that 25 percent chance of getting BOTH animals that are nonhets.
The ONLY time you will ever have it crop up is if you happen to breed a male and female together that are both het for this gene. You only have to do that ONCE to realize you should never breed that pair together again. Depending on your position about such things, you would also have the option of a number of ways in how to deal with this. Anything from just breeding each of those adults to other partners next season, further diluting the occurrence of that recessive gene in the resulting offspring, through giving them to someone with the admonition to NOT breed them, to the extreme of euthanizing them to just take them out of the available gene pool. That will be a choice you have to make. But in any event, I believe that not only will this be a limited problem to deal with, it will also become more and more limited over time.
Realistically, the number of people having 25 percent of a clutch be stargazers will be rather rare, and this is certainly a healthy exercise in the reasons behind not doing excessive amounts of inbreeding in your colonies. Certainly those instances will be disappointing, but not devastating by any stretch.
Sorry, been busy with eggs being dropped. They are all producing earlier this year for some reason.
Honestly this is the first time I have every heard of this SG gene. What is Kathy's position on it? From what you have written, it sounds like it originated along with the Sunkissed line, but is not actually tied to that gene. And your saying you thought Kathy took care of it makes it appear that it has been around for a while and she has known about it. Who else has had SG show up in their collection from this line?
I got a sexual pair of the Sunkisseds from Kathy, back in 96 I believe, but have never bred them directly together. But I do have OODLES of offspring from lots of different projects. Never once seen this SG problem from that stock after several years of breeding those offspring. Knowing my luck, if I had it here, I would get 100 percent SG animals.
Actually the way I breed my animals, the odds are against it ever showing up if in fact it is in my stock. I will breed multiple males with each female so if even one male is carrying the gene, the odds are reduced that any particular ova would be fertilized by that infected sperm. And with (from what you are telling me) it being a lethal gene, it is highly unlikely it will ever reach a population density to be of a real concern. I think most people would know something was wrong if they had 25 percent defective babies hatch out in a clutch, and would likely just never breed those two together again.
So as best I can tell, the ball is kind of in Kathy's court concerning this. I can't say I would be all that happy if she knew about this situation back then and didn't alert me of it before selling that pair to me. I do recall her suggesting that I outcross them because of some inbreeding problems, but she didn't elaborate on that. I just figured kinks and compressed bodies were the problem.
I guess if those original animals are still here next year I can breed them together just to see what happens. Of course, unless they are BOTH het for that SG gene, it really may not tell me anything more about it. Based on the later generation results I have seen, I would say the odds are pretty darn slim that BOTH would be het for it. So it may be a fruitless task after all.
Thanks for the heads up, but at this point I really don't know what I can do to help.
So Kathy has washed her hands of the Sunkisseds because of this factor? But if it is in her Okeetees (which you indicated as the ORIGINAL source), what about them? Has she gotten rid of them as well? Are they being ignored in this investigation? It appears to me that the Okeetees from Kathy need to be scrutinized as well as (if not more) than the Sunkisseds. And anything else that those Okeetees may have been bred to (you mentioned Stripes, for example). If this point is ignored, then you are all wasting your time by limiting your focus to ONLY the Sunkisseds.
Quite frankly, until I do hatch out a "factored" corn, there is really nothing I can do about this. And even then, it would still prove rather difficult determining which adult of the matings (I breed at least three males to each female) was the carrier. I certainly would never purposely obtain a known carrier to bring it into my facility for test breeding. If I were to produce a few in different clutches, that would help to try to identify a potential single carrier, but would not rule out multiple carriers either.
But this does bring up a question. What are people with KNOWN carriers doing about those animals when they are discovered?
As for seeing the results in babies, since Sunkisseds are ALWAYS excitable, I think it would be pretty evident rather quickly in new hatchlings.
So if someone were to ask me if my colony of Sunkisseds (and relateds) is "factor-free", my response as of today has to be "as far as I can determine". At this point, I can't see any other way to treat this matter. At this point I could excise the entire line from my colony without too much agony.
But as mentioned about, Kathy's Okeetee line is MOST certainly suspect as well, and I do believe she should be the one to publicly address this issue. Depending on how much she outcrossed Okeetees into her other lines, the majority of her stock may be suspect as well. It is going to be a bitter pill to swallow, but if she doesn't public backlash may be pretty harsh.
Now the thing that came to my mind, especially in reference to those few instances I had years ago with some Milk Snake Phase babies is that this peculiar stargazing effect does not necessarily have to have an exclusive source of this alleged genetic Sunkissed origination. What are some symptoms of inbreeding? What about cases of the matings of two animals just being incompatible? I think there is an opportunity here for a lot of people to jump the gun and claim ANY abnormality they see in a clutch of baby snakes is being caused by this particular line. But it isn't going to necessarily be so at all. Much like many people will jump to the conclusion that ANY problems they see in their clutches are the results of inbreeding. I think there is a very strong opportunity for a new boogie man to be spotted underneath the bed and blamed for a rash of unrelated problems.
Also, one thing I have not seen mentioned in this thread (unless I just overlooked it) and was told be the person sending me the emails, was that this stargazing gene is a LETHAL gene. If that is true, then you can really only have heterozygous adults, and NEVER a homozygous adult. Simply because the animals won't live long enough to reach adulthood. IF that is true, then this will be a self limiting problem, over time, as each subsequent generation further dilutes the gene in TOTAL number of animals. For example, if you breed a het carrier to a non het carrier, there is a 50 percent chance that any one of the babies will be a carrier. Now with any two animals out of that clutch, you have these possibilities:
het x het
het x nonhet
nonhet x het
nonhet x nonhet
So there is ONLY a 25 percent chance you will pick het animals to breed together from that clutch that will produce homozygous stargazers. All of the rest of those possibilities simply reduce the possibility further of the gene being able to surface in subsequent breedings. For instance, you have a 50 percent chance of picking a het and nonhet pair. Breeding them together then gives this same result shown above, further reducing the odds of het x het pairing up. And of course, there is that 25 percent chance of getting BOTH animals that are nonhets.
The ONLY time you will ever have it crop up is if you happen to breed a male and female together that are both het for this gene. You only have to do that ONCE to realize you should never breed that pair together again. Depending on your position about such things, you would also have the option of a number of ways in how to deal with this. Anything from just breeding each of those adults to other partners next season, further diluting the occurrence of that recessive gene in the resulting offspring, through giving them to someone with the admonition to NOT breed them, to the extreme of euthanizing them to just take them out of the available gene pool. That will be a choice you have to make. But in any event, I believe that not only will this be a limited problem to deal with, it will also become more and more limited over time.
Realistically, the number of people having 25 percent of a clutch be stargazers will be rather rare, and this is certainly a healthy exercise in the reasons behind not doing excessive amounts of inbreeding in your colonies. Certainly those instances will be disappointing, but not devastating by any stretch.
El Jefe
Mark 16:18
I think the jury is still out on that one. Although it is supposedly easy to spot and therefore in the past there has probably not been a homozygous animal grown up, Connie has some and she says are feeding and growing just fine. Whether they make it to an adult or one that can breed...I guess we have to wait a few years.Rich Z said:
Tula_Montage
It's Jager time!
Its a behavioral difference, not physical appearance as in a "look".
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
I did not mean to say that outcrossing will dilute the gene, just dilute its presence in the population. And of course, that means it can't pop up again immediately, but will be spread through a bigger population, causing more widespread incidence eventually. That is why I chose to limit it to my okeetee / sunkissed population, where I thought I could eventually determine which animals are "clean" by breeding to known carriers a few times. And yes, any of the baby okeetees (and any babies from anyone who has any sunkissed blood in a bloodline) COULD be a carrier.
In the early days, I didn't know what was going on (mid or late '90s, if memory serves). I did discuss it with some other breeders. Once we kind of figured out what was going on, I have tried to warn people who may be more likely to get carriers if breeding was their goal (at that time, I thought only sunkissed and sunkissed hets were at risk). For many years, I NEVER produced a gazer in a non-sunkissed baby, such as in a regular okeetee baby. Only in the last few years did I see okeetee gazers. So I thought the sunkissed and gazer genes were entwined together for a long time. Now I know that it also occurs separately.
It has taken a long time just to figure it out. And it will take a lot longer to eliminate it, if ever. I have lots of okeetees that have never produced a gazer. But I can't guarantee that they are non-carriers. I do plan to note their "S factor" status on their ACR records so people can see for themselves whatever I know, and make their own decision. Nobody (to my knowledge) can guarantee their line if they have anything from this okeetee line or any sunkissed line (unless they have proven an animal by breeding it a few times to a known carrier), although if you have inbred them for a long time without any gazers, it is a pretty good indication your line is clean.
Connie and a few others are trying to raise some homozygous gazers to be used as test animals to prove out a clean line. AFAIK, nobody has raised one yet, so I can't say for positive if it is lethal.
I do believe that some serious breeders will eventually produce clean, proven lines and that serious buyers will purchase from them. At this time, I can guess that some of my adult okeetees may be clean, but I can't guarantee it any more than anyone else.
I am happy to have found the original hypo okeetee (sunkissed) gene, but unhappy that it came with such a troublesome hitchhiker. But none of that was known until the genes had already been dispersed into lots of other collections. If you want to be positive that you will never have to deal with it, then you will have to avoid any snake that has any hint of sunkissed genes or any history of any okeetees that ever originated from my stock. At least, until Connie or some other breeder can certify their sunkissed and okeetees are totally free from the star gazer gene. I hope to be able to do that as well, but can't say that at this time.
In the early days, I didn't know what was going on (mid or late '90s, if memory serves). I did discuss it with some other breeders. Once we kind of figured out what was going on, I have tried to warn people who may be more likely to get carriers if breeding was their goal (at that time, I thought only sunkissed and sunkissed hets were at risk). For many years, I NEVER produced a gazer in a non-sunkissed baby, such as in a regular okeetee baby. Only in the last few years did I see okeetee gazers. So I thought the sunkissed and gazer genes were entwined together for a long time. Now I know that it also occurs separately.
It has taken a long time just to figure it out. And it will take a lot longer to eliminate it, if ever. I have lots of okeetees that have never produced a gazer. But I can't guarantee that they are non-carriers. I do plan to note their "S factor" status on their ACR records so people can see for themselves whatever I know, and make their own decision. Nobody (to my knowledge) can guarantee their line if they have anything from this okeetee line or any sunkissed line (unless they have proven an animal by breeding it a few times to a known carrier), although if you have inbred them for a long time without any gazers, it is a pretty good indication your line is clean.
Connie and a few others are trying to raise some homozygous gazers to be used as test animals to prove out a clean line. AFAIK, nobody has raised one yet, so I can't say for positive if it is lethal.
I do believe that some serious breeders will eventually produce clean, proven lines and that serious buyers will purchase from them. At this time, I can guess that some of my adult okeetees may be clean, but I can't guarantee it any more than anyone else.
I am happy to have found the original hypo okeetee (sunkissed) gene, but unhappy that it came with such a troublesome hitchhiker. But none of that was known until the genes had already been dispersed into lots of other collections. If you want to be positive that you will never have to deal with it, then you will have to avoid any snake that has any hint of sunkissed genes or any history of any okeetees that ever originated from my stock. At least, until Connie or some other breeder can certify their sunkissed and okeetees are totally free from the star gazer gene. I hope to be able to do that as well, but can't say that at this time.
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
Hi Vin,
I may be the reason you brought up this thread, because people have ask me about your Het Sunkissed Bloods you are offering for sale. Personally, I believe they are a great project, and I have the same project going now and hope to breed them next year.
Unfortunately, the Star Gazing gene was discovered along side of the Sunkissed gene, and it is real, not hype at all, so everybody is going to have to decide how they want to approach the Sfactor, if they are going to work with Sunkissed, or any line, that came from a Sunkissed lines. (Sfactor, is basically the spread of the gene sight unseen into 50% of the offspring from any Het SG). The reason Sunkissed and all decedents from Sunkissed have to be considered Sfactored, is because of the close association between the two genes. They were both discovered in one of Kathy’s Okeetee lines or at least brought together, while she was trying to recover the Sunkissed gene from Projects. Luckily, they are not linked, so just because a Corn is a Sunkissed, or het Sunkissed, does not mean that they are het SG, but Sfactored, simply because the gene spreads sight unseen.
The SG gene is not the end of the world as it has been pointed out, even if two Het SG are bred together, only 25% of them are going to be SG and the rest 66% poss hets. This is probably the worst case scenario, if we produce a Sunkissed Blood and right next to him is a SG. I guess a SG Sunkissed Blood would be worst, but myself and others believe there are some options to eventually get to lines of Sunkissed that are proven to be Sfactor free.
The only hype, that I have seen about this gene, is trying to convince somebody that a Sunkissed line is free of the SG gene, simply because they have never seen it in their colony, such as your Sunkissed that you used. Just because the gene has not been seen in two generations or even more, does not mean that it is not there. I believe Rich may be the exception when it comes to breeding multiple males to females. Most people hold back many more females than males. Even if a line of Sunkissed is Sfactored, the chances of pairing up two het SG, is pretty slim, or 1 in 4. If a male hold back from a Sunkissed line, is not het SG, he could be bred to 10 Het SG, and the gene would not reveal itself, so this type of hype, to try to prove a line is clean, is just that HYPE. We don’t need the hype. If we educate people about the gene, and let them know, that it is possible for the gene to exist in any line of Sunkissed, then that is all that needs to be done as far as sales go.
When I first acquired my Sunkissed from Kathy, she did tell me about the gene, so I have always known about it, but until you really think about it, it really doesn’t hit home. I was not overly impressed with the Sunkissed at first like Kathy, but now that I have had them awhile, I believe they are one of our best Corn Snake Mutant genes and definitely worth working with, even being Sfactored.
I equate the Sunkissed gene to the Jungle gene in Boas, it lightens, brightens, and it IS a pattern gene as well. The pattern varies greatly, exactly like the Jungle Boas. Sometimes it jumps out at you, and other times it is very subtle, but when combined with other genes, the pattern and blending of colors is like no other gene that we have. I still can not explain, why Sunkissed have very black belly checkers. Is it really a hypo, or something else?
Everybody who decides to work with Sunkissed will have to decide how to approach the SG gene. I have many years invested in Sunkissed Projects, and I believe it is possible to TEST for the gene, and eliminated it from some lines. Some more HYPE that I have heard, is that we can never be 100% sure that the gene is eliminated even after multiple test to a KNOWN carrier. This is of course true, because we can never get passed 99.8% proof positive, but 99.8% proof positive, is certainly more than 0% if you chose do nothing at all. I believe taking the position, that since we can never be 100% positive, doing nothing is OK, is HYPE, but of a different kind.
My plan for the Sunkissed lines in my colony is to test them to a KNOWN carrier. I have acquired an adult pair of Het Striped Blood Star Gazers to test my lines with. I really like Sunkissed, but my Sunkissed Projects are what I am concerned about most. I don’t have to test all of my het Sunkissed Projects at first. Instead, I can test the Sunkissed that created them. We can talk about 100% proof positive until we are blue in the face, but 9 times out of 10, if you breed two hets together and get a normal sized clutch, you are going to see a Homo offspring in the clutch. How many offspring we need to be sure enough is going to be up to each individual, but 16 or 32, would seem to be all that will be needed. Off the top of my head, I believe 32 brings us to 99.8% and 16 is pretty darn good.
If a Sunkissed that I used to produce a project test clean, then the Project line is clean and can be kept that way. The Sunkissed that tested clean, can then be used to make CLEAN projects, and any Sunkissed produced from the project will also be clean. If a Sunkissed test positive for SG, then I will know that 50% of my Project is het for SG, even if I haven‘t seen it. Since, I usually have good sized groups of Projects, they can be tested individually. Half of them will test clean, so even an Sfactored Projects can still be used.
When a line test positive to SG, what will I do? Cull the entire project or test them individually. This seems like a lot of work, but actually testing individually, will save time in the long run. Adults will test clean or at least close to it, in one season, but to raise up a new project from clean lines will take at least two years, and more likely three.
I have chosen to test my Sunkissed by breeding them to a KNOWN het SG. This will never be 100%, but far better than 0%. The SG gene is real, and several Het SG have been discovered when tested to a KNOWN carrier, when in the past, no SG had been produced, and some for several generations. I believe that I will find more Het SG in my Sunkissed colony, and this information will be passed onto customers that have already purchased their offspring. When several of us begin testing, more and more Het SG will be discovered soon, and they will be able to be used as testers as well, so if others want to do testing, KNOWN Het SG will be available.
Some estimates of SG in Sunkissed lines, are as high as 50%, but I do not believe it is that high in the general population. So far, Sunkissed that came from Kathy directly, that have been tested, are coming close to the 50% estimation. Every random breeding of two non carriers, reduced the percentages a little, but every Het SG X Het SG breeding that is not detected helps keep the percentage higher. You would think that 1 in 4 SG in a clutch would definitely jump out at you, but how many hatching have other problems that we just discount as “normal”, such as kinks, bubble heads, stubs and on and on. Are any of these conditions genetic? We would like to think they are all environmental, but some of them are most likely genetic as well, but we just out cross and out cross again. At least now that we know the SG gene is a simple recessive gene, it can be tested for, and it can be eliminated from Sunkissed lines with 99.8% certainty. This is far better, than our previous approach to other defects. Many of them are environmental, but do you really believe that none of them are genetically related? At least now, with our knowledge of the SG gene, we can take positive steps towards eliminating it from tested line.
Something that always comes up when discussing testing for the SG gene, is somebody inevitably drags in, that all we are doing is trying to make a buck, off of KNOWN het SG, which I consider more HYPE. Some people are giving away known poss het SG, and many will not charge for KNOWN het SG. I have not decided what I will do when it comes time to offer known SG. My only goal at this time is to test my colony and establish clean lines. Kathy and I came to a trade agreement so I could acquire my pair of adult Het Star Gazers and I am grateful. To me, at this point in time, they are very valuable, but in time, if the estimated percentages of Sfactored Corns from Sunkissed lines is anywhere close to being accurate, they will be a dime a dozen soon enough, or the cost of shipping.
I may be the reason you brought up this thread, because people have ask me about your Het Sunkissed Bloods you are offering for sale. Personally, I believe they are a great project, and I have the same project going now and hope to breed them next year.
Unfortunately, the Star Gazing gene was discovered along side of the Sunkissed gene, and it is real, not hype at all, so everybody is going to have to decide how they want to approach the Sfactor, if they are going to work with Sunkissed, or any line, that came from a Sunkissed lines. (Sfactor, is basically the spread of the gene sight unseen into 50% of the offspring from any Het SG). The reason Sunkissed and all decedents from Sunkissed have to be considered Sfactored, is because of the close association between the two genes. They were both discovered in one of Kathy’s Okeetee lines or at least brought together, while she was trying to recover the Sunkissed gene from Projects. Luckily, they are not linked, so just because a Corn is a Sunkissed, or het Sunkissed, does not mean that they are het SG, but Sfactored, simply because the gene spreads sight unseen.
The SG gene is not the end of the world as it has been pointed out, even if two Het SG are bred together, only 25% of them are going to be SG and the rest 66% poss hets. This is probably the worst case scenario, if we produce a Sunkissed Blood and right next to him is a SG. I guess a SG Sunkissed Blood would be worst, but myself and others believe there are some options to eventually get to lines of Sunkissed that are proven to be Sfactor free.
The only hype, that I have seen about this gene, is trying to convince somebody that a Sunkissed line is free of the SG gene, simply because they have never seen it in their colony, such as your Sunkissed that you used. Just because the gene has not been seen in two generations or even more, does not mean that it is not there. I believe Rich may be the exception when it comes to breeding multiple males to females. Most people hold back many more females than males. Even if a line of Sunkissed is Sfactored, the chances of pairing up two het SG, is pretty slim, or 1 in 4. If a male hold back from a Sunkissed line, is not het SG, he could be bred to 10 Het SG, and the gene would not reveal itself, so this type of hype, to try to prove a line is clean, is just that HYPE. We don’t need the hype. If we educate people about the gene, and let them know, that it is possible for the gene to exist in any line of Sunkissed, then that is all that needs to be done as far as sales go.
When I first acquired my Sunkissed from Kathy, she did tell me about the gene, so I have always known about it, but until you really think about it, it really doesn’t hit home. I was not overly impressed with the Sunkissed at first like Kathy, but now that I have had them awhile, I believe they are one of our best Corn Snake Mutant genes and definitely worth working with, even being Sfactored.
I equate the Sunkissed gene to the Jungle gene in Boas, it lightens, brightens, and it IS a pattern gene as well. The pattern varies greatly, exactly like the Jungle Boas. Sometimes it jumps out at you, and other times it is very subtle, but when combined with other genes, the pattern and blending of colors is like no other gene that we have. I still can not explain, why Sunkissed have very black belly checkers. Is it really a hypo, or something else?
Everybody who decides to work with Sunkissed will have to decide how to approach the SG gene. I have many years invested in Sunkissed Projects, and I believe it is possible to TEST for the gene, and eliminated it from some lines. Some more HYPE that I have heard, is that we can never be 100% sure that the gene is eliminated even after multiple test to a KNOWN carrier. This is of course true, because we can never get passed 99.8% proof positive, but 99.8% proof positive, is certainly more than 0% if you chose do nothing at all. I believe taking the position, that since we can never be 100% positive, doing nothing is OK, is HYPE, but of a different kind.
My plan for the Sunkissed lines in my colony is to test them to a KNOWN carrier. I have acquired an adult pair of Het Striped Blood Star Gazers to test my lines with. I really like Sunkissed, but my Sunkissed Projects are what I am concerned about most. I don’t have to test all of my het Sunkissed Projects at first. Instead, I can test the Sunkissed that created them. We can talk about 100% proof positive until we are blue in the face, but 9 times out of 10, if you breed two hets together and get a normal sized clutch, you are going to see a Homo offspring in the clutch. How many offspring we need to be sure enough is going to be up to each individual, but 16 or 32, would seem to be all that will be needed. Off the top of my head, I believe 32 brings us to 99.8% and 16 is pretty darn good.
If a Sunkissed that I used to produce a project test clean, then the Project line is clean and can be kept that way. The Sunkissed that tested clean, can then be used to make CLEAN projects, and any Sunkissed produced from the project will also be clean. If a Sunkissed test positive for SG, then I will know that 50% of my Project is het for SG, even if I haven‘t seen it. Since, I usually have good sized groups of Projects, they can be tested individually. Half of them will test clean, so even an Sfactored Projects can still be used.
When a line test positive to SG, what will I do? Cull the entire project or test them individually. This seems like a lot of work, but actually testing individually, will save time in the long run. Adults will test clean or at least close to it, in one season, but to raise up a new project from clean lines will take at least two years, and more likely three.
I have chosen to test my Sunkissed by breeding them to a KNOWN het SG. This will never be 100%, but far better than 0%. The SG gene is real, and several Het SG have been discovered when tested to a KNOWN carrier, when in the past, no SG had been produced, and some for several generations. I believe that I will find more Het SG in my Sunkissed colony, and this information will be passed onto customers that have already purchased their offspring. When several of us begin testing, more and more Het SG will be discovered soon, and they will be able to be used as testers as well, so if others want to do testing, KNOWN Het SG will be available.
Some estimates of SG in Sunkissed lines, are as high as 50%, but I do not believe it is that high in the general population. So far, Sunkissed that came from Kathy directly, that have been tested, are coming close to the 50% estimation. Every random breeding of two non carriers, reduced the percentages a little, but every Het SG X Het SG breeding that is not detected helps keep the percentage higher. You would think that 1 in 4 SG in a clutch would definitely jump out at you, but how many hatching have other problems that we just discount as “normal”, such as kinks, bubble heads, stubs and on and on. Are any of these conditions genetic? We would like to think they are all environmental, but some of them are most likely genetic as well, but we just out cross and out cross again. At least now that we know the SG gene is a simple recessive gene, it can be tested for, and it can be eliminated from Sunkissed lines with 99.8% certainty. This is far better, than our previous approach to other defects. Many of them are environmental, but do you really believe that none of them are genetically related? At least now, with our knowledge of the SG gene, we can take positive steps towards eliminating it from tested line.
Something that always comes up when discussing testing for the SG gene, is somebody inevitably drags in, that all we are doing is trying to make a buck, off of KNOWN het SG, which I consider more HYPE. Some people are giving away known poss het SG, and many will not charge for KNOWN het SG. I have not decided what I will do when it comes time to offer known SG. My only goal at this time is to test my colony and establish clean lines. Kathy and I came to a trade agreement so I could acquire my pair of adult Het Star Gazers and I am grateful. To me, at this point in time, they are very valuable, but in time, if the estimated percentages of Sfactored Corns from Sunkissed lines is anywhere close to being accurate, they will be a dime a dozen soon enough, or the cost of shipping.
Actually, that is very interesting to me. In the last two years, I've noticed that some animals out of my Milksnake Phase X Motley animals have been dead ringers for Sunkissed patterns and some of the motleys look just like the few Sunkissed Mots in exisistance, right on down to the fact that they retain some belly checkers. I've been very seriously wondering the gene made it's way into the line somehow.Rich Z said:
For comparison:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33835
http://www.lowbellyreptiles.com/BreedingStockpages/Couch.htm
Vinman
Vinman
No joe I had no idea that any one was questioning you. One person questioned me though. The only reason is because this is the first I ever heard of this untill last week I never heard of stargazers in corns. I know of the virus that boa and pythons get. At least I have a great chance of not having it, since my animal came from a out crossed then inbred line with no sines showing. The animal that was from Kathy was a normal okeetee carrying the sunkissed gene. like I told you in the PM the sunkissed pop up years latter when the line was bread back and forth to eachother. and my sunkissed male is at least 2 to 3 gens no ill effect that is according to BOB DEPTULA OF HOPYARD HERPS.
Serpent2007
No snakes in ROI eh?
hi guys i was wondering would this stargazing be a sign of inclusion bone disease as often found in boids this is fatal in boids if contracted could this be early signs of it being introduced to corns?
Jay@PJCReptiles
"Quality Before Quantity"
Not sure what to do about this one.
This thread has me very concerned. I find it very compelling as we have a 1.1 pair het Sunkissed, Anery, Motley that we purchased not being aware that this gene even existed and is predominately found in homo/het Sunkissed. These were purchased from Zach Shepard who got them from Connie Hurley. These two have bred and we are waiting for eggs right now. Knowing that something like this will more then likely show up in the clutch kind of rains on my parade. I have read this thread and the ones posted on the "other site". This compells me to ask a few questions.
1. What do I look for to know that an individual baby is a SG? Is it definitely a noticeable abnormality? Does the animal act completely different?
2. What should I do to the babies that are SG? Kull them? And for that matter kull the whole clutch as they would be 66% het for this trait as well and get rid of this 1.1 pair?
3. Should I raise some SG animals and keep records of their progress? Should I raise some Sfactored (assuming this means snakes het for this trait) and breed them back to the parents to see if these snakes are clean of this trait?
4. What can I do, if this gene is present in my snakes, to remove this gene from this line? I am very interested in working with Sunkissed as it is my favorite Hypo. I would really prefer not to lose this line by having to scrap it because of this trait.
5. This last question is more aimed towards Kathy Love and Joe Pierce. Please tell me what I can do, if anything, to help contribute to the test breedings that are going on. I would be more then interested in helping remove this trait from others lines as well as my own.
Also, is their any other information about this anomaly out there that I can get my hands on. I will greatly appreciate the feedback on this this one. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Vinman please understand I am not trying to steal your thread but this topic has me very concerned as well as intrigued. Thank you for bringing up this topic.
Jay
This thread has me very concerned. I find it very compelling as we have a 1.1 pair het Sunkissed, Anery, Motley that we purchased not being aware that this gene even existed and is predominately found in homo/het Sunkissed. These were purchased from Zach Shepard who got them from Connie Hurley. These two have bred and we are waiting for eggs right now. Knowing that something like this will more then likely show up in the clutch kind of rains on my parade. I have read this thread and the ones posted on the "other site". This compells me to ask a few questions.
1. What do I look for to know that an individual baby is a SG? Is it definitely a noticeable abnormality? Does the animal act completely different?
2. What should I do to the babies that are SG? Kull them? And for that matter kull the whole clutch as they would be 66% het for this trait as well and get rid of this 1.1 pair?
3. Should I raise some SG animals and keep records of their progress? Should I raise some Sfactored (assuming this means snakes het for this trait) and breed them back to the parents to see if these snakes are clean of this trait?
4. What can I do, if this gene is present in my snakes, to remove this gene from this line? I am very interested in working with Sunkissed as it is my favorite Hypo. I would really prefer not to lose this line by having to scrap it because of this trait.
5. This last question is more aimed towards Kathy Love and Joe Pierce. Please tell me what I can do, if anything, to help contribute to the test breedings that are going on. I would be more then interested in helping remove this trait from others lines as well as my own.
Also, is their any other information about this anomaly out there that I can get my hands on. I will greatly appreciate the feedback on this this one. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Vinman please understand I am not trying to steal your thread but this topic has me very concerned as well as intrigued. Thank you for bringing up this topic.
Jay
Vinman
Vinman
PJCReptiles, Steal my thread . Dont be absurd. That is why I posted it To get all the info I can with it. I dont look at this thread as being mine, as I look at it as a open conversation. We need to learn more about this syndrom. Please ask away ,Take the floor and run the show to all. We need as much infomation and questions as possible. Every thing you asked is what I want to know too. We need to nip this in the bud befor it is too wide spread. :flames:
HanneysCorn
Canadian Cornaholic
Here is an information page that Connie has so kindly prepared in regards to the Stargazing gene. Connie has given permission for all of us who have an interest and wish to educate others about the S-Factor to reproduce this information on our sites. This link will also provide you with 2 videos which will show you the neurological effects of this gene, in its homogenous form, in not only sunkisseds, but any morph. This video is of '07 hatchlings just out of the egg from a clutch specifically bred for SG testers.
Stargazing Information and Videos
Education and understanding are our greatest allies at this point.
Ruth Hanney
Stargazing Information and Videos
Education and understanding are our greatest allies at this point.
Ruth Hanney
Vinman
Vinman
OK after seeing the thread I have hatched one or two of these in my whole 20 some odd years. cant tell you where I seen them but is was that it caught my eye . this can be a common sporadic mutation that can manifest it self from time to time with non het to non het breedings. The term I'm mean is a point mutation. Another thing which is the most likely thing that happend is it just could have been a birth defect in the nervous system. Being only 2 animals that I had over the years and they werent from the same clutch or year
carol said:
Well at least at my facility, Sunkissed nor Okeetee was ever bred into any of the Milk Snake Phase line I was working with. Nor into the Motleys that I eventually combined with Milk Snake Phase. Since the Okeetee look and Milk Snake Phase look were 180 degrees apart, I wouldn't have had any reason to combine them.
And this brings up my original observation. People WILL produce animals that may have similar symptoms in behavior that people WILL jump to conclusions over. Some genetic aberrations will manifest themselves as neurological deficiencies, which may not be anything at all genetically linked as a recessively passed trait.
For that matter, there COULD be animals out there that have a recessively passed trait for severe spinal kinks. But how many people would ever be inclined to raise them up to breed them to find out? How would you be able to identify the results as being from a genetic trait as opposed to just a negative result of inbreeding? Which some argument could be made are one and the same....
The problem with mother nature is that she is going to be throwing curve balls at us all the time. Anyone who is engaging in breeding animals is going to see all sorts of things crop up over time. Some of these "things" will be attractive, or maybe just tolerable, and perhaps beneficial to the snake. Others, well won't....
Tula_Montage
It's Jager time!
Out of interest Rich, did you kill off all of the above hatchlings straight away?
Tula_Montage said:
The first two were euthanized.
I still have the third one (Stubby) and she is probably the most laid back snake I have ever had. Not sure what I am going to do with her, because I'm not going to breed her. But I think she is about the most perfect pet snake I have seen.
The two headed one, of course, was sold and as far as I know is still alive with it's current owner.