What is all this hype about stargazer syndrome

[ecreipeoj]

This thread has me very concerned. Knowing that something like this will more then likely show up in the clutch kind of rains on my parade.

This is not necessarily true. Even from a known Sfactored line, your chances of actually producing a Homo SG, is only 1 in 4 and your project may not have came from Sfactored Sunkissed, so what does that take it down too, 1 in 5?

Considering the lineage, the Sunkissed that produced your Project is registered, and you can look this information up on the ACR site, and see if it is one that has already been tested. I do know that Chuck and Connie, have tested some of their Sunkissed, and some have tested positive, and they have some that have proven to not carry the gene, depending on how much proof you require. I believe two normal sized clutches would certainly convince me.

1. What do I look for to know that an individual baby is a SG? Is it definitely a noticeable abnormality? Does the animal act completely different?

Last year I did hatch out a SG, but it was during a busy time for me, and I did not make the connection, even through I did know about the SG gene. I even made a note on its lid that it crawled funny. It didn’t take me long to cull it, and it was forgotten, until I came across more talk of the Sfactor. You can't miss it if you are looking for it. They crawl funny, or don't have complete control of their motor functions.

I repeated all of my Het Sunkissed X Het Sunkissed breedings from last year, so I should find the clutch it came from and I will have another pair of known carriers of the SG gene. The hatchling was a Normal by the way. I believe if it was a Sunkissed, a light may have came on in my head, but just coming from a Sunkissed line was not enough at the time. Times change, and I will be watching all of my Sunkissed line breedings, much closer now.

I have seen other things that mimic SG, such as when a hatchling umbilical cord gets tied in a knot and they do not absorb their yoke. Many of them flop around when they crawl and could certainly be mistake for SG. I am sure that there are many other problems with hatchlings that could also mimic SG.

If you want to breed animals, you have to remember that they are quite alive, and Mother Nature can be cruel. There are probable a 1000 and 1 ways that defects in hatchlings can manifest themselves, which will cause them to not survive. SG is just one of them. If you think you are going to get into breeding Corns and every clutch will be 100% fertile, and then they will all hatch out and be perfect representatives of the Morph you were trying to produce, then you are not ready to work with living creatures. I love clutches of 20 plus eggs, with no slugs, and each and every hatchlings makes it out of the egg and thrives, but this is the exception, rather than the rule.

2. What should I do to the babies that are SG? Cull them? And for that matter cull the whole clutch as they would be 66% het for this trait as well and get rid of this 1.1 pair?

If you have ever read any threads that deals with the most ethical way to cull defective animals, then you will know that this is definitely a subject that does not have a single answer. I breed Koi, and Mice, and culling is, well NECESSARY, and I do not personally feel a connection with the animals that I cull, so I don’t have a problem with doing it. I have decided, that I will cull the animals my way, and just not talk about it, because I can guarantee, no matter how I do it, it will light a fire in somebody’s pants.

When I start testing my lines of Sunkissed by breeding them to a known carrier, I personally do not see any reason for the entire clutch not to be culled. They will be 66% Sfactored and Homo SG and I will know it. Trying to find homes for them as pets, will only lead to some of them getting sold back into the general Corn Snake population. My own personal goals I have by testing is to clean up my lines, but I am not going to contribute to the problem by dumping KNOWN carriers back into the pot.

3. Should I raise some SG animals and keep records of their progress? Should I raise some Sfactored (assuming this means snakes het for this trait) and breed them back to the parents to see if these snakes are clean of this trait?

I saw a few references above that Connie was raising up some SG, but as far as I know, they did not survive long. I may be wrong, but I believe the gene is FATAL, unless some pretty extreme measures are taken to keep them alive. I don’t really see how a male SG, could breed anyway, but I suppose a female could, but whether of not she could get the eggs out, seems very questionable.

4. What can I do, if this gene is present in my snakes, to remove this gene from this line? I am very interested in working with Sunkissed as it is my favorite Hypo. I would really prefer not to lose this line by having to scrap it because of this trait.

If you produce a SG in your clutch, then both of your parents are het for SG and it can not be removed. If I produced some Sunkissed Anerys, Sunkissed Anery Motleys, or Sunkissed Motleys in your clutch, that are not homo for SG, but some of their siblings are, then I would probably save back the new one of a kind morphs, and then if you want to put in the time and effort, you will already have a pair of KNOWN carriers of the gene to test out your new morphs. Considering the line your Sunkissed gene comes from, I believe the testing will be done for you or it has already been done.

5. This last question is more aimed towards Kathy Love and Joe Pierce. Please tell me what I can do, if anything, to help contribute to the test breedings that are going on. I would be more then interested in helping remove this trait from others lines as well as my own.

Soon, we will find more and more proven Het SG. Many people are raising up 50% and 66% poss het SG, and plan on breeding them together in an attempt to prove out some more Het SG. I personally believe this is much more time and energy, than I would ever want to put into a project, because even though we may know a group of Het Sunkissed are Sfactored, with only 25% odds of matching up the right pair to prove them out, this does not seem like the way to go to me.

If you really think about it, this helps to show that just because the SG gene has not been seen in any line of Sunkissed, it certainly does not mean it is not there. Even if you KNOW you have a group of Sfactored Corns, and you are trying to produce a Homo SG, it may take you several generations to match up the right pair to prove them out. You could have 2.4 or 3.3 Sfactored Corns and never be able to produce a SG, because one of the sexes is not Sfactored. If you produce a SG in a clutch it proves the parents are carriers of the SG gene, if you have not produced a SG in your Sunkissed Projects for several generations, it may weight a little towards them not being Sfactored, but certainly is much more HYPE than anything else, but PROOF it is definitely NOT!

What are the odds of one of the sexes in a group of 4.4 Sfactored Corns, not being Sfactored? I bet the percentages of this happening, is much higher than you may think. Add to this, that you only have a 1 in 4 chance to match up the right pair IF both sexes are Sfactored, and it is not hard to see, that the gene can and has been spreading sight unseen for quite awhile.

If you do happen to have a pair of Het SG, then you can help by testing other peoples Sunkissed Line Corns out for them, if you wish. Another thing to consider, if you decide to send your proven Het SG Corns to somebody else to test their own Sunkissed lines, is to perhaps choose people who have offspring from a Sunkissed. I believe the testing of a Sunkissed that has produced offspring, will not only test the Sunkissed involved, but also may prove their offspring clean at the same time, or prove them to be Sfactored, both of which is valuable knowledge in the right hands.

 

[Rich Z]

With this talk of people sending out animals to other people to be used for testing, I would like to make a comment here. The time to send your animals to someone else is right after the current breeding season is over with. Put that animal in a strict QUARANTINE up till the time you use if for breeding tests. Do NOT wait until two weeks before breeding season to bring another animal into your breeding colonies and then immediately introduce it into your current breeding stock! In my opinion, that is EXTREME foolishness.

This is not directed at any person, but instead, a plea for common sense to prevail within your plans. In focusing on the genetics, you may be blind to the possibility of pathogens tagging along with that new animal. No matter WHO you get a new animal from and no matter what reason, I STRONGLY suggest you quarantine the animal for a MINIMUM of 3 months and observe it closely. Longer would be better, if you can do it. There are too many new people getting into this who don't have a clue of the dangers they are exposing their animals to by NOT faithfully using quarantine procedures for their new acquisitions.

 

[kathylove]

Excellent reminder, Rich!

 

[Vinman]

With this talk of people sending out animals to other people to be used for testing, I would like to make a comment here. The time to send your animals to someone else is right after the current breeding season is over with. Put that animal in a strict QUARANTINE up till the time you use if for breeding tests. Do NOT wait until two weeks before breeding season to bring another animal into your breeding colonies and then immediately introduce it into your current breeding stock! In my opinion, that is EXTREME foolishness.

This is not directed at any person, but instead, a plea for common sense to prevail within your plans. In focusing on the genetics, you may be blind to the possibility of pathogens tagging along with that new animal. No matter WHO you get a new animal from and no matter what reason, I STRONGLY suggest you quarantine the animal for a MINIMUM of 3 months and observe it closely. Longer would be better, if you can do it. There are too many new people getting into this who don't have a clue of the dangers they are exposing their animals to by NOT faithfully using quarantine procedures for their new acquisitions.

3 months is nothing a snake can have Crypto Sporidium for years with out showing a sine and spread the pathagin. There are many other pathagins that can take years to manafest without showing any sines that the snake is carring anything. I think it is better you isolate the animal in question, breed it and the carrier animal . Breed it to another snake in advance and save the babies If it is negitave.

My sunkissed is in my livingroom collection. this collection is for all wild caught and adults bought off other people, only their babies go into my main collection in another room. Another thing is you can get a carrier animal as a hatchling and dont breed the animal that you question untill the carrier animal is up to breeding age

 

[reptile_jones]

Is thier any new info to be added?

 

[Mrs InsaneOne]

Not that I am aware of, though we are still raising our two Stargazers that we picked up at the end of last year. They've been growing steadily, if slower than a non-stargazing corn.