What morph is this corn?

[Snakehead]

Yes, Grace really is that red...as to whether or not the's a "normal" or a "hyper", I truly don't know, which is why I asked.

I help out the local animal control w/ reptiles and I got her, along with some aquatic turtles back in October, because the previous owner moved away, leaving all her pets behind (there were some cockatiels, a cat, an aquarium full of tropical fish, a rodent of some kind - possibly a jerboa, but it was gone before I arrived - the turtles and Grace...found homes for the turtles and my wife and daughter demanded that I keep Grace - and, to be honest, it really didn't require a lot of arm-twisting ).

Anyway, after joining up here and looking at the AMAZING variety of colors and patterns that cornsnakes can come in (previously, I guess I was aware of only snows, pink albinos and normals), we wondered what morph Grace might be.

And I very mucyh appreciate all y'all's making the efforts to help us find out...and my daughter appreciates Susan making her Caucasian For A Day...she found that very amusing, and we played around with our photo editing software last night changing her hair and eye color, too!

I will say this. I really like the looks of that corn regardless of hypo or not. I like the large wide saddles and the color is beautiful too! Good luck with it.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I will say this. I really like the looks of that corn regardless of hypo or not. I like the large wide saddles and the color is beautiful too! Good luck with it.

Thanks! And she's as sweet-tempered as she's pretty!

Hoping to breed her to Elwood, my Emory's, this spring and see if the babies are cinnamons or root beers...

 

[Christen]

Thanks! And she's as sweet-tempered as she's pretty!

Hoping to breed her to Elwood, my Emory's, this spring and see if the babies are cinnamons or root beers...

That would be fun. Keep us posted.

 

[Susan]

Had you not "changed" the color of the photo, both Grace and my daughter's skin tones would have been accurate...It's a common enough mistake, Susan, so don't get too ruffled over your mis-assumption. Nobody's right all the time. We humans come in many ethnicities, with many shades.

:cheers:

Oh, I am fully aware of the variation in skin tones of Homo sapiens, but I am also aware that some cameras, depending upon the lighting and the color scheme of objects being photographed, can incorrectly tint a photo a certain color. I am pretty sure that the shirt your daughter is wearing isn't pink with red and purplish blue print. That, or you accidentally washed it with something red that bled and stained that entire load. I judge the tint of photos not by one or two objects in that photo, but by the photo as a whole and all the objects contained therein.

I do my best to make sure that photos I post here and elsewhere are as accurate as possible. I have actually been known to decrease the intensity of colors a little just to avoid being accused of falsifying the coloration of the snakes I own, breed and sell. There are some unscrupulous people out there that will do whatever it takes to make a sale, including altering photos to make a snake appear more desirable to actually staining the snake's skin to make it something it is not.

I am sorry if I am harping on this subject but you posted a photo and inquired as to the morph of the snake as you had some doubts. As I have demonstrated, morph identification sometimes isn't an easy thing to do so a proper representation of the snake in question is required or else any educated guesses are really worthless.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Oh, I am fully aware of the variation in skin tones of Homo sapiens, but I am also aware that some cameras, depending upon the lighting and the color scheme of objects being photographed, can incorrectly tint a photo a certain color. I am pretty sure that the shirt your daughter is wearing isn't pink with red and purplish blue print. That, or you accidentally washed it with something red that bled and stained that entire load. I judge the tint of photos not by one or two objects in that photo, but by the photo as a whole and all the objects contained therein.

I do my best to make sure that photos I post here and elsewhere are as accurate as possible. I have actually been known to decrease the intensity of colors a little just to avoid being accused of falsifying the coloration of the snakes I own, breed and sell. There are some unscrupulous people out there that will do whatever it takes to make a sale, including altering photos to make a snake appear more desirable to actually staining the snake's skin to make it something it is not.

I am sorry if I am harping on this subject but you posted a photo and inquired as to the morph of the snake as you had some doubts. As I have demonstrated, morph identification sometimes isn't an easy thing to do so a proper representation of the snake in question is required or else any educated guesses are really worthless.

Which is why I keep explaining to you that the pic in question is the correct coloring for both the snake and the daughter...

And, as I have no desire to sell either the snake or the daughter, you may set your mind at ease that I'm not trying to pass either off as anything other than what they are... :roflmao:

 

[Floof]

Thanks! And she's as sweet-tempered as she's pretty!

Hoping to breed her to Elwood, my Emory's, this spring and see if the babies are cinnamons or root beers...

Just a head's up; the initial breeding won't tell you anything about her genetics. Hypo is recessive, so unless Elwood was also carrying the corn snake Hypo A gene, none of your hatchlings from the initial breeding would be "Cinnamons," even if Grace is carrying the gene.

If you go through with the pairing, be sure to label them very clearly as EmoryxCorn hybrids. It's far too easy for the untrained eye to mistake an EmoryxCorn for a pure Corn, especially if they don't know and understand that "Rootbeer corn" means "Hybrid."

 

[Christen]

Which is why I keep explaining to you that the pic in question is the correct coloring for both the snake and the daughter...

And, as I have no desire to sell either the snake or the daughter, you may set your mind at ease that I'm not trying to pass either off as anything other than what they are... :roflmao:

Ok I have to ask what ethnic background is your daughter? Cause your daugters legs look very white in your picture just her arms and shirt look red. lol

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

That would be fun. Keep us posted.

I expect the next thing to do is to purchase an incubator...I'll be breeding Eastern Hermann's and (possibly) Iberian tortoises (assuming I can find a few female Iberians at the reptile show next month...), as well, although my current E. Hermann's is still too young by a couple of years at this point, but I'm hoping to buy a couple more E. Hermann's ASAP, hopefully at the same reptile show. Already have an excellent male E. Hermann's lined up.

Generally, it's easier on the female tortoise if you have a few per male, otherwise he'll pester a lone female literally to death! (The biologocal/medical term is "!"... :dgrin:

Ptolemy (Testudo ibera) is ready (and how! ), and can't be trusted around Jennifer at all!

So, I'm studying as to the optimum size incubator for this mixed purpose...open to suggestions on that matter, and have heard that there's a line of incubators that can be dialed in for specific species.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Ok I have to ask what ethnic background is your daughter? Cause your daugters legs look very white in your picture just her arms and shirt look red. lol

We are Cherokee, mixed w/ Irish, of the Aniwahya Clan.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Just a head's up; the initial breeding won't tell you anything about her genetics. Hypo is recessive, so unless Elwood was also carrying the corn snake Hypo A gene, none of your hatchlings from the initial breeding would be "Cinnamons," even if Grace is carrying the gene.

If you go through with the pairing, be sure to label them very clearly as EmoryxCorn hybrids. It's far too easy for the untrained eye to mistake an EmoryxCorn for a pure Corn, especially if they don't know and understand that "Rootbeer corn" means "Hybrid."

So I'll want to breed a young (heterozygous) male offspring back to her, then, to express that heritage?

What would be the probable result of breeding a female (heterozygous) offspring of this mating back to Elwood (Emory)?\

Thanks for this detailed info!

And, certainly I'll be sure to label all of these offspring as such, being as they'll be heterozygous/hybrids.

 

[Outcast]

So I'll want to breed a young (heterozygous) male offspring back to her, then, to express that heritage?

What would be the probable result of breeding a female (heterozygous) offspring of this mating back to Elwood (Emory)?\

Thanks for this detailed info!

And, certainly I'll be sure to label all of these offspring as such, being as they'll be heterozygous/hybrids.

You could also breed brothers to sisters. Het + Het should get you some Cinnamon babies.
If you breed back to the father, you would get "normals" (I do not know too much about rootbeers/cinnamons to know what the normals would look like) that are possible hets.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

You could also breed brothers to sisters. Het + Het should get you some Cinnamon babies.

I see...

If you breed back to the father, you would get "normals" (I do not know too much about rootbeers/cinnamons to know what the normals would look like) that are possible hets.

Hmmm...ok. So, if I bred back to the father, an Emory, would this litter look more Emory, more Corn or a mixture (some of one, some of the other)?

Still learning, so thanks for any help in my Corn snake education!

 

[Outcast]

Still learning, so thanks for any help in my Corn snake education!

From what I know, which is little, about hybrids, is that they baby's will most likely favor the Emory lines more so than the corn. But, there should be variation in their look.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

From what I know, which is little, about hybrids, is that they baby's will most likely favor the Emory lines more so than the corn. But, there should be variation in their look.

I see...thanks!

 

[Floof]

Generally speaking, the more Emory blood, the more they'll resemble Emory's; the more Corn blood, the more they'll resemble Corns.

I'm not completely sure you understand what heterozygous means? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but it sounds like you're equating "heterozygous" ("het" for short) with "hybrid." Where a Hybrid, as we all know, is a mix of two different species, "heterozygous" means to carry only one copy of a recessive gene.

If Grace is homozygous (both copies of a recessive gene, or visual) Hypo A, then all of the offspring, whether you bred her to an Emory's or a pure corn, would be heterozygous Hypo A (if not homozygous, in the event the sire was carrying the same strain of Hypo).

Breeding a male offspring back to Grace has the chance to get you some answers, as, if any Hypo offspring come out of the pairing, you would know Grace is carrying the gene (as is the male offspring)--you just wouldn't be able to know if she's carrying it in Het or Homo form, because, even as just a Het Hypo, she would still pass on the gene to about 50% of the offspring.

The only way to know for sure if she's het, homo, or not at all carrying Hypo A is to breed her to a known Hypo A male corn snake. That would give you your clearest answer... 100% Hypo offspring would indicate she is, indeed, Hypo; 100% normal offspring would indicate she doesn't carry it at all; and a mix of Hypo and Normal offspring would indicate she is Het for it--visually a normal, but still carrying the hypo gene.

Hopefully that makes more sense... heh.

 

[Outcast]

Generally speaking, the more Emory blood, the more they'll resemble Emory's; the more Corn blood, the more they'll resemble Corns.

I'm not completely sure you understand what heterozygous means? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but it sounds like you're equating "heterozygous" ("het" for short) with "hybrid." Where a Hybrid, as we all know, is a mix of two different species, "heterozygous" means to carry only one copy of a recessive gene.

If Grace is homozygous (both copies of a recessive gene, or visual) Hypo A, then all of the offspring, whether you bred her to an Emory's or a pure corn, would be heterozygous Hypo A (if not homozygous, in the event the sire was carrying the same strain of Hypo).

Breeding a male offspring back to Grace has the chance to get you some answers, as, if any Hypo offspring come out of the pairing, you would know Grace is carrying the gene (as is the male offspring)--you just wouldn't be able to know if she's carrying it in Het or Homo form, because, even as just a Het Hypo, she would still pass on the gene to about 50% of the offspring.

The only way to know for sure if she's het, homo, or not at all carrying Hypo A is to breed her to a known Hypo A male corn snake. That would give you your clearest answer... 100% Hypo offspring would indicate she is, indeed, Hypo; 100% normal offspring would indicate she doesn't carry it at all; and a mix of Hypo and Normal offspring would indicate she is Het for it--visually a normal, but still carrying the hypo gene.

Hopefully that makes more sense... heh.

I was speaking as if Grace was Homo Hypo. I figured that a Cinnamon was a hypo Emory/Cornsnake cross. Which is why I stated that if the het babies were to be bred together, there would be cinnamons in the mix.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Generally speaking, the more Emory blood, the more they'll resemble Emory's; the more Corn blood, the more they'll resemble Corns.

I'm not completely sure you understand what heterozygous means? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but it sounds like you're equating "heterozygous" ("het" for short) with "hybrid." Where a Hybrid, as we all know, is a mix of two different species, "heterozygous" means to carry only one copy of a recessive gene.

If Grace is homozygous (both copies of a recessive gene, or visual) Hypo A, then all of the offspring, whether you bred her to an Emory's or a pure corn, would be heterozygous Hypo A (if not homozygous, in the event the sire was carrying the same strain of Hypo).

Breeding a male offspring back to Grace has the chance to get you some answers, as, if any Hypo offspring come out of the pairing, you would know Grace is carrying the gene (as is the male offspring)--you just wouldn't be able to know if she's carrying it in Het or Homo form, because, even as just a Het Hypo, she would still pass on the gene to about 50% of the offspring.

The only way to know for sure if she's het, homo, or not at all carrying Hypo A is to breed her to a known Hypo A male corn snake. That would give you your clearest answer... 100% Hypo offspring would indicate she is, indeed, Hypo; 100% normal offspring would indicate she doesn't carry it at all; and a mix of Hypo and Normal offspring would indicate she is Het for it--visually a normal, but still carrying the hypo gene.

Hopefully that makes more sense... heh.

Thanks!

 

[Snakehead]

Breeding a male offspring back to Grace has the chance to get you some answers, as, if any Hypo offspring come out of the pairing, you would know Grace is carrying the gene (as is the male offspring)--you just wouldn't be able to know if she's carrying it in Het or Homo form, because, even as just a Het Hypo, she would still pass on the gene to about 50% of the offspring.

The only way to know for sure if she's het, homo, or not at all carrying Hypo A is to breed her to a known Hypo A male corn snake. That would give you your clearest answer... 100% Hypo offspring would indicate she is, indeed, Hypo; 100% normal offspring would indicate she doesn't carry it at all; and a mix of Hypo and Normal offspring would indicate she is Het for it--visually a normal, but still carrying the hypo gene.

Hopefully that makes more sense... heh.

Actually She might be able to know with a fair amount of accuracy. If The Mom is only het then only about 25% of the babies should be Hypo. But if Mom is Homo Hypo then there should be roughly 50% baby hypos. The question is can she tell which are hypos, since she can't really tell if the Mom is hypo? I have mistaken normals to be hypos in the past, just cause I didn't see any black marking.

 

[Floof]

I was speaking as if Grace was Homo Hypo. I figured that a Cinnamon was a hypo Emory/Cornsnake cross. Which is why I stated that if the het babies were to be bred together, there would be cinnamons in the mix.

I realize; my post was directed at Terry, particularly because of this comment:

...being as they'll be heterozygous/hybrids.

This implied, at least to me, that Terry was under the impression "Heterozygous" and "Hybrid" are one and the same.

Sorry for any confusion...

Snakehead-- While that is true, such percentages are only estimates, not guarantees. Though a heterozygous x homozygous pairing should produce 50% homo offspring, there's no guarantee that just 25% will be homo, or even if 75% will be homo. Just like, if you pair het x het, there's no guarantee you'll get any homo offspring, even though you should get about 25% homo.

The reason I consider a test breeding with a known homozygous the only way to know for sure is that it's the only pairing that will really tell you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what's going on... Because a homo x homo pairing will produce nothing but homo offspring. Likewise, if there are normals in the clutch, you know she can't be homo for the gene in question.

Unless I misunderstand what you mean, hypos in the clutch should be easy to pick out. Normal hatchlings are distinctively very dark in color, where hypo hatchlings are, naturally, very light, often a lighter red in color. The confusion comes as the animals grow and their colors develop. Before all of that, though, differentiating between the two should be easy.

Just my take on the subject...

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I realize; my post was directed at Terry, particularly because of this comment:



This implied, at least to me, that Terry was under the impression "Heterozygous" and "Hybrid" are one and the same.

Sorry for any confusion...

Snakehead-- While that is true, such percentages are only estimates, not guarantees. Though a heterozygous x homozygous pairing should produce 50% homo offspring, there's no guarantee that just 25% will be homo, or even if 75% will be homo. Just like, if you pair het x het, there's no guarantee you'll get any homo offspring, even though you should get about 25% homo.

The reason I consider a test breeding with a known homozygous the only way to know for sure is that it's the only pairing that will really tell you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what's going on... Because a homo x homo pairing will produce nothing but homo offspring. Likewise, if there are normals in the clutch, you know she can't be homo for the gene in question.

Unless I misunderstand what you mean, hypos in the clutch should be easy to pick out. Normal hatchlings are distinctively very dark in color, where hypo hatchlings are, naturally, very light, often a lighter red in color. The confusion comes as the animals grow and their colors develop. Before all of that, though, differentiating between the two should be easy.

Just my take on the subject...

My bad...I worded that wrong, and couldn't figure how to edit my post.

Anyway, you and Outcast pretty much answered my questions, so thanks!