Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
ahhh! hmmm, how does one know if there wasn't any cross-breeding in order to spread morphs though?
Thanks for filling me up to speed... not that hognoses are really my forte', but it's nice to know.
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Wow, that is one expensive snake
- Thread starter Asbit
- Start date
ahhh! hmmm, how does one know if there wasn't any cross-breeding in order to spread morphs though?
Thanks for filling me up to speed... not that hognoses are really my forte', but it's nice to know.
ceduke
Female Wiccan Heretic!!
I don't know. With the whole mess regarding the western leucistics, I seriously doubt there was any cross-breeding there. AFAIK there aren't any melanistic westerns. The amels and reds though...beats me! The two species look different enough that I'd think it would be easy to tell a hybrid from a pure Eastern, but that's pure speculation. I'd love to know the answer if anyone here knows more about it!! Hogs are my favorite snakes.
Nanci
Alien Lover
I've never heard of anyone doing that. They are _really, really_ different.
We need DeadMouse for some input!!
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
I dunno, I can't say I see a huge difference... but my eye is not trained enough. Just like how different boa constrictors can look almost the same to a person who doesn't know what to look for.
RavenSpirit360
Mitakuye Oyasin
I have seen those advertised... I think they look really cool and would love to have a couple, but I will wait until their price plummets lol.. Yeah when new genes come out, they can be extremely high priced.. You should take a look at some of the newer ball python morphs, $50,000 and up... Its crazy...!!
DeadMouse
Hungry, hungry Hognose!
The ad for that Ivory Eastern is not new, they actually tried selling it for the same amount last year as well.
Obviously, people are scared to make an investment on unproven genetics that might not in fact be heritable. It actually surprises me that someone would even try to sell such a unique animal like that without trying to reproduce it as you could make far more than $15,000 from selling off the babies from one clutch for a fraction of that price.
I remember Brian Barczyk (BHB) telling me about the time he spent something like $20,000+ on a crazy patterned ball python that never proved out to be genetically heritable and like he said, he now has the most expensive pet ever!
I would venture to guess that the owners of that might have tried breeding that snake with no luck in either producing offspring or the genetics not proving out (unless they produced a bunch of hets that they are secretly keeping). As Bob Applegate wisely told me a couple years back at his ranch "Why would someone sell an animal that could make lots of money by simply breeding it?". Wise words indeed!
As far as the comments about how "greedy" or high the price is, these comments are obviously coming from people that are either "keepers only" or small time hobbyist breeders at best. Just a few years ago, it was not unheard of to see some ball pythons fetching $20,000 to $40,000. Unfortunately (for the big time breeders and investers), that market has almost bottomed out due to the recession and the USFW war over invasive species. It's not greedy to ask a high price for something that is extremely rare or unique. Heck, look at what people spend on pieces of art or other items that command high prices. If you have the money and spending it on something rare like a one of a kind painting or a one of a kind snake brings you happiness, then so be it.
But again, this all depends on the person buying the animal. A couple years ago, Brian Barczyk also told about some rare and very expensive snake (I don't remember what species), I think it was in the $10,000+ range, that a Japanese guy purchased just for the sake of having it in his collection without any aspirations of breeding it. To him, it was worth it just to have such an animal to admire and take care of. I remember Brian telling me how frustrating it was because several well known breeders were eager to get their hands on that snake just to see if they could prove out the genetics so that others could hopefully be produced. This obviously will never happen unless another one of those same animals randomly pops up elsewhere.
And no Oren, I don't think that specific snake is any type of hybrid between an Eastern and a Western (or any other subspecies for that matter) and as far as I know, no hybrid has ever been produced let alone even tried. It looks genuinely Eastern to me. And as pointed about by Ceduke, all of the morphs you mentioned previously are Western Hognose morphs.
Obviously, people are scared to make an investment on unproven genetics that might not in fact be heritable. It actually surprises me that someone would even try to sell such a unique animal like that without trying to reproduce it as you could make far more than $15,000 from selling off the babies from one clutch for a fraction of that price.
I remember Brian Barczyk (BHB) telling me about the time he spent something like $20,000+ on a crazy patterned ball python that never proved out to be genetically heritable and like he said, he now has the most expensive pet ever!
I would venture to guess that the owners of that might have tried breeding that snake with no luck in either producing offspring or the genetics not proving out (unless they produced a bunch of hets that they are secretly keeping). As Bob Applegate wisely told me a couple years back at his ranch "Why would someone sell an animal that could make lots of money by simply breeding it?". Wise words indeed!
As far as the comments about how "greedy" or high the price is, these comments are obviously coming from people that are either "keepers only" or small time hobbyist breeders at best. Just a few years ago, it was not unheard of to see some ball pythons fetching $20,000 to $40,000. Unfortunately (for the big time breeders and investers), that market has almost bottomed out due to the recession and the USFW war over invasive species. It's not greedy to ask a high price for something that is extremely rare or unique. Heck, look at what people spend on pieces of art or other items that command high prices. If you have the money and spending it on something rare like a one of a kind painting or a one of a kind snake brings you happiness, then so be it.
But again, this all depends on the person buying the animal. A couple years ago, Brian Barczyk also told about some rare and very expensive snake (I don't remember what species), I think it was in the $10,000+ range, that a Japanese guy purchased just for the sake of having it in his collection without any aspirations of breeding it. To him, it was worth it just to have such an animal to admire and take care of. I remember Brian telling me how frustrating it was because several well known breeders were eager to get their hands on that snake just to see if they could prove out the genetics so that others could hopefully be produced. This obviously will never happen unless another one of those same animals randomly pops up elsewhere.
No truer words have been spoken! Just remember those of you who think that some of these prices are outrageous, the higher priced morphs are typically rare in collections and are not always going to guarantee a return on your investment. And not every animal is going to reproduce for you, let alone survive in captivity. Added to the fact that most of these expensive morphs are bought as hatchlings and by the time they reach sexual maturity, some couple of years later, the value for that morph has more than likely dropped a significant amount of money due to the few years everybody else was producing the same animals and selling them while you were raising yours. I've invested about $10,000 in 5 particular morph males that have no interest in breeding or at least they don't know what the heck to do despite being of breeding size and age. I have have a couple of females that have been extremely slow growers (being fussy eaters) as well and if I'm lucky, they will be of breedable size at 5 years old instead of the normal 2 or 3 years that I was hoping for. And yet, when I produce animals to sell, I can't think of all the money I've invested and keep those prices the same, now I have to be competitive amongst all the other breeders out there trying to sell off their animals as well. It's a tough market if you are just in it for the money! Thankfully for me, I'm in it for the love of the animals as I sure as heck don't plan on making any money any time soon despite my best attempts.Kokopelli said:
And no Oren, I don't think that specific snake is any type of hybrid between an Eastern and a Western (or any other subspecies for that matter) and as far as I know, no hybrid has ever been produced let alone even tried. It looks genuinely Eastern to me. And as pointed about by Ceduke, all of the morphs you mentioned previously are Western Hognose morphs.
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
I am so far from being a hognose expert that really, whatever you say, I simply nod and accept... since I have no current interest or intention to work with them... I invest most of my time by trying to keep track of the insanity of the boa morphs... there are tons, and it seems like everyday a new thing is discovered about an existing morph- super motelys for instance... only VPI, as far as I know, managed to pull these fellas through their first year... and they seem to have a defect in their skull structure.
So... if you say there are no hybrids and that they are too different physically to do so without it being very visible... okay, that's good
So... if you say there are no hybrids and that they are too different physically to do so without it being very visible... okay, that's good
Old_School
Old School Colubrids
Not to mention that that there is an Eastern Hognose.. good luck with trying to get it to feed on mice,..one better have a good supply of toads!
Asbit
So Many Morphs...
My whole point originally was the fact that although I know nothing about the genetics of Hoggies, I found it incredible that someone would ask that price for a snake with unproven genetics.
I understand that there is a lot time, effort, expense and often heart ache in trying to develop the first of a new morph!
Personally, I like the look of that snake but am far from rich enough to purchase a snake, painting or what have you, of that price, just so I can have it!!
As I watch the snake world on a genetic development level I have seen and understand the reasoning behind some of these "new" snakes high prices. I just can not fathom asking that kind of a price for something that is unproven!!
I understand that there is a lot time, effort, expense and often heart ache in trying to develop the first of a new morph!
Personally, I like the look of that snake but am far from rich enough to purchase a snake, painting or what have you, of that price, just so I can have it!!
As I watch the snake world on a genetic development level I have seen and understand the reasoning behind some of these "new" snakes high prices. I just can not fathom asking that kind of a price for something that is unproven!!
stephen
corn breeder
Unproven
The fact is, since it is unproven is the reason it is only 15k.
Take Albino Ball Pythons,The first ones that hatched in captivity were 50k,which I was supprised they were that low!
As far as people who complain about prices of cornsnake morphs,fact is they havent never produced anything new or they would feel they are selling them too cheap.......:grin01:
Also the saying you get what you pay for holds very true when you purchase cornsnakes.
The fact is, since it is unproven is the reason it is only 15k.
Take Albino Ball Pythons,The first ones that hatched in captivity were 50k,which I was supprised they were that low!
As far as people who complain about prices of cornsnake morphs,fact is they havent never produced anything new or they would feel they are selling them too cheap.......:grin01:
Also the saying you get what you pay for holds very true when you purchase cornsnakes.
SquamishSerpents
Katia
we paid $1400 for our albino female BP, and to us, that was a STEAL of a deal at the time, because she was near breeding size (and in her pre-ovy shed right now!) but to everybody else that we know, that was the CRAZIEST THING EVER to spend $1400 on a "slithery, slimy snake with creepy red eyes!" it's in the eyes of the beholder...
as others have said, it's not surprising to see BP morphs going for such large price tags. yes, it is a little OUTRAGEOUS and makes me a bit jealous that somebody, somewhere, can afford a snake with that high of a price tag. it's a very risky investment though!
and personally, i think snake collections in general are risky investments.
as others have said, it's not surprising to see BP morphs going for such large price tags. yes, it is a little OUTRAGEOUS and makes me a bit jealous that somebody, somewhere, can afford a snake with that high of a price tag. it's a very risky investment though!
and personally, i think snake collections in general are risky investments.
snakewispera snr
The Devils Advocate
A friend of mine just bought the Soul sucker for nearly $30,000.. she has a few snakes that she won't tell me the price of, so I guess she has paid even more..
She also has the golden child retic and the albino golden child retic from nerd and the BurmBall..so people are buying these snakes. regularly..
I think there may be other problems with that particular morph.
SquamishSerpents
Katia
how big do burmballs get?
snakewispera snr
The Devils Advocate
I'm not really sure anyone knows exactly... I'll ask, but I'm sure there are only a few in the world and they are not finished growing yet.....
Here's the Burmballs FB page..
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...le#!/search/?init=srp&sfxp=&q=Indica Burmball
The owners of it are Jackie and Rain, if you would like to ask them...
DeadMouse
Hungry, hungry Hognose!
The ad for this Ivory Eastern states "She has been fed on toads as well as UNSCENTED mouse hoppers and rat pinkies."
So obviously by the claims of the seller, this one has been transitioned over. It just makes me wonder if they are still feeding it toads along with it's diet of rodents.
The way I look at it is, it's not really that incredible for a seller to be asking that price. However, I would find it incredible for a buyer to spend that kind of money on such a risky investment considering that the genetics are unknown.
This is so very true. Brian Barczyk has told me about his projects concerning Axanthic hognose. From what I remember, the first two that he purchased that were found in the wild did not survive in captivity, let alone breed. I don't recall how much money he spent on those, but I'm sure it wasn't cheap. It was only until a third wild one was found and he got it was he then successful in breeding it and thus proving out the genetics as well as propagating the line.
Considering that most genetic morphs originate from wild caught animals (but not all do), the challenge is helping them to survive and then breeding them. Heck, even captive bred specimens can be terribly difficult establishing and costing a lot in time and money while still not producing anything.
Well, the question you have to ask yourself is not whether you determine the value of the animal based on the money you don't have, but in how you determine the value of the animal if money is not an issue.
As a music collector, especially in a market that is also crashing and holding no value, I have spent up to $300 for a couple of my CD's and albums. Have these items held their value over the last few years with this ever changing online market? No! But do I care? Not really, because I purchase these items, not based on their price or value but because they were items that I wanted and money was not an issue.
So again, the value of something is not about what people can necessarily afford, it's about what's worth it to you as the prospective buyer.
Case in point, at the time, we had the choice (and money) to purchase either a Snow Hognose or a Superconda Hognose (both were basically the same price). From a breeding and investment standpoint, I was more inclined to want to invest in the Snow considering that it is a double het recessive trait animal that is much more difficult to produce whereas a Superconda is a co-dominant trait which, in a couple of years, will be far more common than a Snow will be. Also, considering the fact that we already own an Anaconda Hognose, it seemed redundant to purchase a Superconda. However, my wife fell in total love with the Superconda's last year when we got to hold the original one's that Brent produced. So, while from my perspective, the Snow was a better investment for breeding purposes, we ended up purchasing the Superconda because my wife really wanted that more than anything else. And of course I wouldn't change a thing because we love our fast growing Superconda, Twix.
Asbit
So Many Morphs...
DeadMouse I have to agree with what you have said in the following as well
If I had the money and it was not an issue, I would purchase it to have it because I like it, just like one of my Amel Corns I fell in love with at a pet store and had sworn I would not buy anymore pet store snake nor pay their prices....$329 later she came home with me!!! But based on genetics and breeding plans, it is not something I would be willing to fork out that kind of money on with unproven genetics... if money were not an issue and it were just for a pet .... sure I deserve to be spoiled... but for a genetic purpose...with unproven genetics...nah I am not generally that risky when it comes to business!!
If I had the money and it was not an issue, I would purchase it to have it because I like it, just like one of my Amel Corns I fell in love with at a pet store and had sworn I would not buy anymore pet store snake nor pay their prices....$329 later she came home with me!!! But based on genetics and breeding plans, it is not something I would be willing to fork out that kind of money on with unproven genetics... if money were not an issue and it were just for a pet .... sure I deserve to be spoiled... but for a genetic purpose...with unproven genetics...nah I am not generally that risky when it comes to business!!
ceduke
Female Wiccan Heretic!!
DeadMouse, I completely agree. If I had the money, I would LOVE to have that animal in my collection. If the genetics didn't prove out, well...I'd still have a one of a kind animal that I would immensely enjoy having around.
Rather like my female normal hognose, who I WAY overpaid for. She is deformed and therefore not able to be anything but a pet, but i was attached to HER and wanted HER in my collection, so I paid...well...quite a bit more than most people would pay for a pet-only normal hog. I've never regretted it!
Rather like my female normal hognose, who I WAY overpaid for. She is deformed and therefore not able to be anything but a pet, but i was attached to HER and wanted HER in my collection, so I paid...well...quite a bit more than most people would pay for a pet-only normal hog.
I've never regretted it!
martin-bernstein
Anything Lava!
Was that a typo? Did you actually pay $329 for an amel? WHY???