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Pied is it recessive? WYNTK
- Thread starter Tom Tuttle
- Start date
torsten
Too many yet too few!!!
Are all those hatchlings pictured there SMR line?
Is the Pied sided in that last photo about as much white as they get?
Does it have that amount of white on both sides?
That last last example could almost be classified as white sided...
Perhaps to make this as confusing as possible we name the gene/s that cause this affect as 'Pied sided' and then as we end up with snakes with this much white or completely white sides (depending on how much affect selective breeding has on it) we can call them 'White sided'.
This would be similar to the principle many currently Use for the diffused gene, the gene is 'Diffused' and the selectively bred variant of this is bloodred.
Has anyone bred a visual SMR Pied blood with a normal blood and then bred those offspring either to themselves or back to the visual Pied? what were the results?
If you breed a SMR pied sided with lots of white to another SMR pied sided with lots of white do the offspring generally have more white or is the amount of white on the offspring random and just luck?
Is the Pied sided in that last photo about as much white as they get?
Does it have that amount of white on both sides?
That last last example could almost be classified as white sided...
Perhaps to make this as confusing as possible we name the gene/s that cause this affect as 'Pied sided' and then as we end up with snakes with this much white or completely white sides (depending on how much affect selective breeding has on it) we can call them 'White sided'.
This would be similar to the principle many currently Use for the diffused gene, the gene is 'Diffused' and the selectively bred variant of this is bloodred.
Has anyone bred a visual SMR Pied blood with a normal blood and then bred those offspring either to themselves or back to the visual Pied? what were the results?
If you breed a SMR pied sided with lots of white to another SMR pied sided with lots of white do the offspring generally have more white or is the amount of white on the offspring random and just luck?
KJUN
New member
> Perhaps to make this as confusing as possible we name the gene/s that cause this affect as 'Pied sided' and then as we end up with snakes with this much white or completely white sides (depending on how much affect selective breeding has on it) we can call them 'White sided'.
I believe white-sided should be reserved for a different mutation - one equivalent to white-sidedness in so many other snakes.
> This would be similar to the principle many currently Use for the diffused gene, the gene is 'Diffused' and the selectively bred variant of this is bloodred.
Not really. The diffuse/bloodred fiasco is more like albino versus candycane: you have the gene and a selection upon that gene. Still, white-sided should IMO be reserved for a more reliably white sided mutation.
Different way to look at this is all.
> Has anyone bred a visual SMR Pied blood with a normal blood and then bred those offspring either to themselves or back to the visual Pied? what were the results?
Normal bloods result (usually)....some may have a little white as is seen in other bloods, but nothing most of us would tag as a real pied-sided. There are a lot of odd exceptions with this morph. Shrug?
> If you breed a SMR pied sided with lots of white to another SMR pied sided with lots of white do the offspring generally have more white or is the amount of white on the offspring random and just luck?
From what I have seen/heard/done, breeding two good ones from this line gives you pretty much all pied-sideds. Some can be better than the parents and some can be worse. It is too early to tell if selective breeding can make higher and higher whites - OR- if it will be a random thing like piebaldism in ball pythons. I don't think the answer to this will be known for a few more years. Still, P1 can make better F1 when bred together, but not always. Still, all of the babies are generally some degree of pied-sided.
Conversely, I've seen results from at least one pair of LOW EXPRESSION pied-sideds where some of the offspring were nice pied-sideds, but some looked pretty much like regular bloods. This could be due to at least three possibilities (more options possible, of course): (1) one of the low expression parents really weren't genetically pied-sided but still had some white, (2) low expression pied-sideds can produce genetic pied-sideds with little to no white, or (3) it isn't recessive. I'm still wondering if we are dealing with a variable codominant where hets have little to medium levels of white and homozygous have medium to high levels of white - with lots of overlap between the two. It certainly is possible. Likely? I don't know enough to guess yet. Ones with a LITTLE white might be low expression hets OR regular bloods with a few white scales in this particular scenario.
Anyway, one thing to note is that breeding two good ones together gives you pretty much all nice pied-sideds in the first (limited) breeding trails, but this doesn't seem to be the case with the ones I've seen tested from Brad's line. Shrug?
I believe white-sided should be reserved for a different mutation - one equivalent to white-sidedness in so many other snakes.
> This would be similar to the principle many currently Use for the diffused gene, the gene is 'Diffused' and the selectively bred variant of this is bloodred.
Not really. The diffuse/bloodred fiasco is more like albino versus candycane: you have the gene and a selection upon that gene. Still, white-sided should IMO be reserved for a more reliably white sided mutation.
Different way to look at this is all. > Has anyone bred a visual SMR Pied blood with a normal blood and then bred those offspring either to themselves or back to the visual Pied? what were the results?
Normal bloods result (usually)....some may have a little white as is seen in other bloods, but nothing most of us would tag as a real pied-sided. There are a lot of odd exceptions with this morph. Shrug?
> If you breed a SMR pied sided with lots of white to another SMR pied sided with lots of white do the offspring generally have more white or is the amount of white on the offspring random and just luck?
From what I have seen/heard/done, breeding two good ones from this line gives you pretty much all pied-sideds. Some can be better than the parents and some can be worse. It is too early to tell if selective breeding can make higher and higher whites - OR- if it will be a random thing like piebaldism in ball pythons. I don't think the answer to this will be known for a few more years. Still, P1 can make better F1 when bred together, but not always. Still, all of the babies are generally some degree of pied-sided.
Conversely, I've seen results from at least one pair of LOW EXPRESSION pied-sideds where some of the offspring were nice pied-sideds, but some looked pretty much like regular bloods. This could be due to at least three possibilities (more options possible, of course): (1) one of the low expression parents really weren't genetically pied-sided but still had some white, (2) low expression pied-sideds can produce genetic pied-sideds with little to no white, or (3) it isn't recessive. I'm still wondering if we are dealing with a variable codominant where hets have little to medium levels of white and homozygous have medium to high levels of white - with lots of overlap between the two. It certainly is possible. Likely? I don't know enough to guess yet. Ones with a LITTLE white might be low expression hets OR regular bloods with a few white scales in this particular scenario.
Anyway, one thing to note is that breeding two good ones together gives you pretty much all nice pied-sideds in the first (limited) breeding trails, but this doesn't seem to be the case with the ones I've seen tested from Brad's line. Shrug?
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
Does this suggest some secret pairings?!?! :eek1: Which is fine by the way. I assume it's F1 projects you don't want to reveal yet. No problem. I also assume it's an attempt to recover Pied Side outside of Bloodred which is one of the questions that hasn't been answered for certain yet.
Yet, he needs to send them to you ASAP . . . correct?!?!
D80
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
I can understand how p/s could be "linked" to bloodred, and I think the results of SMR x SMR pieds being 100% pied sided is pretty convincing evidence.
But the one thing that bothers me about the whole thing though is, How would a new buyer be able to tell which of the p/s lines it comes from? Are there any other telltale signs that differentiate the SMR ones? Or would you be pretty much taking the breeders' word for it?
Note please do not take this as an attack towards any breeder!
But the one thing that bothers me about the whole thing though is, How would a new buyer be able to tell which of the p/s lines it comes from? Are there any other telltale signs that differentiate the SMR ones? Or would you be pretty much taking the breeders' word for it?
Note please do not take this as an attack towards any breeder!
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
(bolded part is my doing)
Hunh, I guess part of my answer was there all along... kind of hard to find in a rather long post.. But since some of us have not really been following the morph or might not know what to look for I don't know why it would not be relevant or helpful to explain the differences in this thread for people who want to know more. ?.
Since it kind of seems like there is one that breeds true and one that the results vary, it gets confusing.
Tom Tuttle
Fightin the C
Rob,
First off thank you for responding and posting your results. Great looking animals too!
Have you tried breeding any of yours to the Pied Side Granites that Michelle has produced from your bloodline?
KJUN
New member
I'm betting Michelle's W/S Granites from Rob are the MacDonald line. Right, Rob? Speaking of which, Rob, was the "McDonald Anery" in your earlier post a anerythristic blood? I read it as such accidentally since Brad's aneries all seem to be bloods until Tom's post made me realize that it was me reading what I THOUGHT and not what you wrote......lol.
I know I've crossed a SMR pied-sided to a Macdonal high-white aner blood and got no pied-sideds, but I had a tiny, horrible-sized, clutch. My example doesn't mean much. I think Don has done the same, but I KNOW he's bred a pied-sided lineage to a blood FROM a MacDonal line adult and got nothing interesting.
KJ
I know I've crossed a SMR pied-sided to a Macdonal high-white aner blood and got no pied-sideds, but I had a tiny, horrible-sized, clutch. My example doesn't mean much. I think Don has done the same, but I KNOW he's bred a pied-sided lineage to a blood FROM a MacDonal line adult and got nothing interesting.
KJ
tricksterpup
I has nuttin to Say.
well could this p/s traits be similar to the leopard gecko lines in albinos.
From what I have heard, do not quote me on this, but if you cross a Bell Albino with a Tremper Albino it doesn't it produce any albinos. You have to stay pretty much in your same lines.
Now if this is true, do you think this what is going on between the SMR's Line and the Mcdonald line?
I find this thread very interesting due to the fact, I am intrigued by White sided snakes, rats, kings and bull snakes. Due you think its possible to produce a white sided corn? I see in some of Rob's corns, he is pretty close to it.
From what I have heard, do not quote me on this, but if you cross a Bell Albino with a Tremper Albino it doesn't it produce any albinos. You have to stay pretty much in your same lines.
Now if this is true, do you think this what is going on between the SMR's Line and the Mcdonald line?
I find this thread very interesting due to the fact, I am intrigued by White sided snakes, rats, kings and bull snakes. Due you think its possible to produce a white sided corn? I see in some of Rob's corns, he is pretty close to it.
KJUN
New member
> quote me on this, but if you cross a Bell Albino with a Tremper Albino it doesn't it produce any albinos. You have to stay pretty much in your same lines.
There are at least three different nonallelic lines of albinism in Leopard geckos, and this MAY be like that.....but the MacDonald line has not been as nearly as reproducible (especially outside of aner bloodreds) as they "should be." I'm saying that line is NOT recessive, and I will go so far as to say there is no Mendelian mode of inheritance in that lineage at all.
Don's line IS apparently repproducible, but the question is, "Is itrecessive or what?" The lines of Leopard Geckos are all simple recessive, so the analogy isn't quite there for me. HOWEVER, you can change the colors of the leopard gecko due to incubation temperature. I'm not convinced that you can NOT change the phenotype of baby pied-sideds through manipulation of the environment of the adults and/or eggs. Obviously, I'm, not saying you can, but I'm not sure something like nutrition of the adults doesn't affect phenotype of their offspring.
> I find this thread very interesting due to the fact, I am intrigued by White sided snakes, rats, kings and bull snakes. Due you think its possible to produce a white sided corn? I see in some of Rob's corns, he is pretty close to it.
All of those you mentioned are an all-or-one type thing that is modified through selective breeding. This is not an all or none case. I believe you MAY be able to produce snakes that LOOK the same (like a Rosy rat LOOKS like a Hypo cornsnake), but it would not genetically BE the same. I am one of the ones thinking it would be dishonest to use such a term for these snakes. Gulp! I'm skating on thin ice here, aren't I?
KJ
There are at least three different nonallelic lines of albinism in Leopard geckos, and this MAY be like that.....but the MacDonald line has not been as nearly as reproducible (especially outside of aner bloodreds) as they "should be." I'm saying that line is NOT recessive, and I will go so far as to say there is no Mendelian mode of inheritance in that lineage at all.
Don's line IS apparently repproducible, but the question is, "Is itrecessive or what?" The lines of Leopard Geckos are all simple recessive, so the analogy isn't quite there for me. HOWEVER, you can change the colors of the leopard gecko due to incubation temperature. I'm not convinced that you can NOT change the phenotype of baby pied-sideds through manipulation of the environment of the adults and/or eggs. Obviously, I'm, not saying you can, but I'm not sure something like nutrition of the adults doesn't affect phenotype of their offspring.
> I find this thread very interesting due to the fact, I am intrigued by White sided snakes, rats, kings and bull snakes. Due you think its possible to produce a white sided corn? I see in some of Rob's corns, he is pretty close to it.
All of those you mentioned are an all-or-one type thing that is modified through selective breeding. This is not an all or none case. I believe you MAY be able to produce snakes that LOOK the same (like a Rosy rat LOOKS like a Hypo cornsnake), but it would not genetically BE the same. I am one of the ones thinking it would be dishonest to use such a term for these snakes. Gulp! I'm skating on thin ice here, aren't I?
KJ
MichellesCreatures
New member
Just for clarification purposes, my Granites did not come from Rob at Bayou at all. They came from another party who bought them straight from Brad Mcdonald himself.
Hopefully they will be proven out soon. Brad said his were proving out last time I talked to him. Maybe we should bring him into this discussion with his results?
Long time no post folks
Hope everyone is doing well!Michelle
Tom Tuttle
Fightin the C
Just for clarification purposes, my Granites did not come from Rob at Bayou at all. They came from another party who bought them straight from Brad Mcdonald himself.
Hopefully they will be proven out soon. Brad said his were proving out last time I talked to him. Maybe we should bring him into this discussion with his results?
Long time no post folks
Michelle
Nice to see you posting a gain Michelle. But that's not what you said in this post below::shrugs:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62475&highlight=pied
Would you please clarify.
KJUN
New member
Nice to see you posting a gain Michelle. But that's not what you said in this post below::shrugs:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62475&highlight=pied
Would you please clarify.
Thanks. I THOUGHT I had a reason for thinking hers were from Rob. That's it. Anyway, interesting that Brad is saying his are proving out when others aren't seeing the same thing. I wonder what he means and what were his test crosses and results? Interesting. Thanks, Michelle. Good to see you around.
KJ
MichellesCreatures
New member
sorry!
The w/s Granites came from someone here on the board who got them from Brad.
All others, I had regular bloods too.....came from Bayou. I bought both reg bloods and granites from Bayou. The bloods ended up throwing pieds. The Granites did not.
The specific line that the white/pied whatever you want to call them are from McDonald lines.
Sorry about the confusion, hope that helps. If I could edit that, I would. lol!
Michelle
The w/s Granites came from someone here on the board who got them from Brad.
All others, I had regular bloods too.....came from Bayou. I bought both reg bloods and granites from Bayou. The bloods ended up throwing pieds. The Granites did not.
The specific line that the white/pied whatever you want to call them are from McDonald lines.
Sorry about the confusion, hope that helps. If I could edit that, I would. lol!
Michelle
Tom Tuttle
Fightin the C
MichellesCreatures
New member
So has anyone bred a visual pied McDonald line to a visual pied McDonald line? Heck Tom have you bred the siblings you got from me?
Im wondering what mine will do next year....I wont be breeding them but a good friend will be
Im wondering what mine will do next year....I wont be breeding them but a good friend will be
Tom Tuttle
Fightin the C
starting to get slightly off topic
Some of my breeding plans have changed now that I know the Granite pied are McDonald line.
Originally I was going to breed the male (low white) Bloodred I got from you to the female Granite pied. The male Granite pied was going to be paired with the female hypo bloodred that produced hypo pieds & a couple ghosts.
Now in light of the new information. I may breed the male Bloodred(low white) to the female hypo bloodred. I will pair the Granite pieds together. Have to wait & see the results.
I will discuss this further via pm if you like. I don't want this thread to get too far off topic.
So has anyone bred a visual pied McDonald line to a visual pied McDonald line? Heck Tom have you bred the siblings you got from me?
Im wondering what mine will do next year....I wont be breeding them but a good friend will be
Some of my breeding plans have changed now that I know the Granite pied are McDonald line.
Originally I was going to breed the male (low white) Bloodred I got from you to the female Granite pied. The male Granite pied was going to be paired with the female hypo bloodred that produced hypo pieds & a couple ghosts.
Now in light of the new information. I may breed the male Bloodred(low white) to the female hypo bloodred. I will pair the Granite pieds together. Have to wait & see the results.
I will discuss this further via pm if you like. I don't want this thread to get too far off topic.
Last edited:
RobStevens
New member
KJ
I'm not really sure about Michelle's bloodlines but i'm pretty sure it's from Brads snakes.
The Anery in the pic is a Bloodred that came directly from Brad.
We have tried this female two years running and have not produced any P/S's from her.
crackerhead
Hug Free Zone
Just to clarify Ruth's quoting of my post, all information I have ever disseminated about Bloodreds with white side markings has come from conversations with Rob Stevens, Don Soderberg or Brad McDonald. Not from first hand experience. I presently own several pairs of bloodreds; including a pair I purchased from Lore that originally came from Michelle and a pair I bought from Rob and Louise. I have not produced any offspring yet from either above mentioned pair. I have had long conversations with the ever patient Rob because I did not want to intentionally deceive buyers as to the genetics of bloodreds I produced from animals that threw the occasional white sided animal. That is the reason I posted in the first place. I was concerned that people would buy animals and think they had something that they didn't. Knowledge is power. Don and Rob were very upfront about their breeding trials. As well as, their concerns about white sidedness carrying over to other morphs. Based on their successes/failures I was willing to take a chance and work with the gene. Regardless of my breeding outcomes I will NOT be looking for any refunds. I made an informed choice and I will live with that. I'm looking forward to future projects in this area.
Terri
Terri