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Why I Hate Hybrids - Controversial

Well, I don't want to rant, but I understand why people don't like hybrids.
Actually I'm one of them :sidestep:
I like to watch some great looking ones, but I think there are too many people that don't give a **** about their snakes genes and breed everything with anything causing chaos.
 
Does anybody think of the fact that hybrids being for itselfs cannot be hated or disliked because they cannot help being bred? You anti-hybrids should be anti-hybrid-breeders.... :twoguns: :rolleyes:
 
By the way; if emoryi and corn would be 5% apart and just on the edge of being the same species.... people only differ from chimps 2% genetically :sidestep: Next year some scientist throws us together in the species 'chimple'' :sidestep: :grin01:
 
Blutengel said:
By the way; if emoryi and corn would be 5% apart and just on the edge of being the same species.... people only differ from chimps 2% genetically :sidestep: Next year some scientist throws us together in the species 'chimple'' :sidestep: :grin01:
That would be RAD!!!!
 
starsevol said:
Now I stay away from cream breeders...not that creams arent beautiful, they are...But I like knowing for sure what is what...
It is one of those "If I knew then what I know now" kind of things.

hmmm.........So....what breeder(s) is/are your stock from?...Actually a moot point, as I didnt see the "Now I stay away....." part at first...whoops
 
Blutengel said:
By the way; if emoryi and corn would be 5% apart and just on the edge of being the same species.... people only differ from chimps 2% genetically :sidestep: Next year some scientist throws us together in the species 'chimple'' :sidestep: :grin01:

Sorry to say, but that was just stupid :shrugs:
 
Someone walked out on a mighty thin tree branch with this discussion, me'thinks :grin01:

I dislike the idea of hybrids as a whole. Thats why I don't own any more Creams and haven't jumped on the Ultra bandwagon thus far. But I normally keep my opinions on the matter to myself, or in a much less 'flaming' context.

Plus it always ends up being the people who have them and those that don't. For some reason there doesn't seem to be any middle ground on the matter. The people who have them see them as 'mankind's finest achievement', where as people like me see them in a much less appreciated nature.

There are plenty of 'pure' species out there right now in so much trouble from being threatened by habitat loss or human impact, why waste the time making mongrel animals rather than devoting time and energy to keeping the pure lines around for future generations. I personally see nothing wrong with taking two corns from your backyard..breeding them, raising the offspring to an age where they can survive better, and releasing them. Its not any different than people do with rare orchids that have been decimated in the wild. Breeding them in your home doesn't suddenly change them from the wild specimens, like many people seem to imply.

Creams don't bother me as much as Jungles. Corns and Emoryi have been shown to cross-breed where their natural ranges overlap, and I'm sure they share a considerable portion of their genetic makeup. But tricking snakes that normally eat corns into mating with them, imho, is wrong and unethical. Not to mention the fact that they look like a movie prop snake, they don't look real nor attractive to me. Just because they can produce viable offspring doesn't mean squat to me, when normally the 'eating me' factor keeps them from breeding in the first place.

And yes, its only an opinion. I see Jungle corns posted here and there on the forum and just just makes me close the post instantly, without even reading anything in it, regardless of the poster.

What I hate are ignorant hobbyists who make hybrids because they have a Jungle corn and a Snow corn. And only just want to see them breed for the porn factor, I think, and then try to sell off fugly hatchlings without a care in the world as to how to properly label them. THAT is what annoys me...irresponsibility, ignorance, and carelessness.

Plus the fact you don't know what happens to those offspring later on. It would be nice if they were like mules, I think, and ended up being sterile. If most people want just pets, that'd be perfectly fine then. That way you could ensure that retarded people didn't get ahold of them and breed them to a Pit Viper, or some such nonsense. ;)

I like corns for what they are and kings for what they are, and I have no desire in the world to cross them together. I guess I'm not that eager to see the end result as humans typically are.

I do find it rather odd that we try to push the boundaries of other species, in crossing this and that to see if offspring will result and see what they'll look like. And now more than ever with the advent of artificial insemination. But we take total exception and revulsion at the idea of doing it to ourselves. Although from research a few months ago, a cross of Human x Chimp has been attempted, but no one knows if it was successful or not.

To be honest, the only hibirds that have ever visually appealed to me were the Baird's Ratsnake x Corn. Since I own both of those species, I can see and understand why it was done. But I still don't think about crossing them any time soon for the reasons above that I stated.

Anyway, it is nice having a discussion about things without it being a chit-slinging festival. :cheers:

It'd just be nicer if the statisiticians stayed home for the day. :grin01:
 
Wow, look what I missed. Usually hybrids seem to be a hush-hush subject around here.
I personally like a lot of the hybrids, for varying reasons. Just as selectively breeding within a species can enhance desired traits so can cross breeding different species.
I have said before that one good thing about the registry, if used properly, is that no matter which 'side' you are on you would have the information available to make a choice. I only wish there were registries for other types of snakes so that more bloodlines could be tracked.
No matter what, you are going to have irresponsible breeders and sellers. You have it in any type of domesticated animal-heck people breed irresponsibly with each other. But there are also many responsible breeders of both pure lines and hybrids from which to purchase from if that is important to you. If this is a serious issue for anyone, the remedy is as easy as only purchasing from reputable breeders who can verify the bloodlines of their breeding stock. There are plenty of breeders/buyers at both ends of the spectrum.
This is a very interesting thread. I can see both sides point of view, but I still have problems with those who wish to impose their negative view on everyone else. I am glad to see this was a pleasant and constructive discussion.
 
Taceas that was exactly what I wanted to say....

right now I am torn between apoligizing and requesting my account back or just staying away. I was quite a butt head, I will admit.
 
starsevol said:
right now I am torn between apoligizing and requesting my account back or just staying away. I was quite a butt head, I will admit.

No harm done. It's a pretty touchy subject no matter what side of the fence you straddle. Plus, it's all opinions, and you know what opinions are like, right?:grin01: The fact that we here as a group can debate this without resorting to "Hybrids suck, and those that like them suck" or "Purist go home!" makes this site what it is, the best Corn snake based site on the 'net.
 
Oh, there are some that sit the fence. I don't specifically set out to buy hybrids, but I have nothing against them. I own 2 "blue-eyed ghosts" that I highly suspect have gray rat in the background. I bought them to test them against ultra as well as because they are very interesting-looking in their own right. I also wouldn't mind some Bairdi Corns some day. I have no interest in rootbeers / creamsicles, but then again, I have no interest in emorys. Jungle corns don't do much for me, but that's an aesthetic concern. The thought of hybridization doesn't appall me. I think of corns, kings, other rats, etc. as works in progress (in nature and in the breeding pool).

The word "purity" in relation to corn snakes has no meaning to me. What makes the corn snake of 2005 pure vs. the predecessor that gave rise to the emory and the corn? At what point during that transformation did a corn become a pure corn and an emory become a pure emory? To me, it's a range. It's a point in time, not an absolute endpoint.

Corns will continue to change due to pressures, be they inbreeding with others at the range margins, changes in their environments, selection pressure in breeding colonies, and what have you. I see none of these as any more "evil" or "bad" or "unnatural" than anything else. Of course "natural" to me probably isn't the same definition as to most people. I don't adopt the opinion that "natural" = "gooder", """unnatural""" = "badder". That's a whole nother topic.

Point being, I see emorys and corns and kings and the other interbreedable species as being specific points along a spectrum. A little more to the left with a hint of emory and they shift somewhat. A lot more to the left and they mostly look emory. My definition of corn snake is something that fits within my vision of what area of the spectrum encompasses "corns". Some are closer to the center of that range and are the "ideal" "pure" corn snake, some fudge to the right or left, so to speak, being a little more or less "corny" than others. The topic is a line in the sand. Some people have a very sharp line and a narrow range they accept as corn, some have a thick, hazy line and/or perhaps a broader range they accept as corn. Who's opinion is the "correct" one? The person whose view it is, obviously. j/k

It's a judgment call. Those that have a certain, narrower definition with sharp cutoff point have to select their stock with care, finding like-minded individuals, perhaps thinking that all corns caught in the wild are "pure" (which is an opinion in and of itself). The burden of defining the purity of their stock and the stock they buy is on them. If it's important to you, you will seek out stock with your specifications.

I am the first to say that I believe in accurate representation of your stock, but to say "I can't prove they are pure, so I'm labeling them as hybrids" is too narrow-spectrum for me. Short end of things, if it looks, acts, sheds, poops, breeds, and eats like a corn snake, to me it's a corn snake. I can provide all information I have on my stock (and thanks to the ACR, people can look back through them as well) accurately and openly. But I think labeling a normal corn snake a hybrid because I can't "prove that they have 0% non-corn blood" is as inaccurate to me as labeling them "pure corn" when I can't prove they are 100%.

As I said before, the term "pure" means very little to me because I think it's an illusion...a pigeon hole...a neat package. People like nice, cut and dried, black and white, 100% - 0% packages. I don't personally think anything is on/off, black/white, so it doesn't bother me and I don't obsess on it.

I label things to the best of my knowledge and keep records like a fiend. It's the best anyone can do. I don't personally seek out hybrids, but it's mostly because most of them don't coincide with my tastes. I don't begrudge the "purist", their view makes it more difficult to assemble an "acceptable" collection. They are entitled to their beliefs and good for them for putting in the effort to maintain their collection within their standards. I don't begrudge the hybridizers. They have a goal, a curiosity, and are implementing a plan. Many interesting patterns and colors have emerged and those animals make wonderful pets and future breeders and are no less "happy" than "pure" animals. I guess I fail to see what's wrong and unjust about it. I think I sit mostly on the fence with one foot dangling to the hybrid side. Like I said, I'd like some Bairdi corns some day. That's really about all the more interested in hybrids I am. The rest, I'll leave to those with a passion for them. :)

Good discussion everyone, and without a single idjit posting. :santa:
 
This subject isn't hush-hush here, really. Its just we've all been there (done that), we know each other's feelings on the subject, and don't try to rock the boat I'd say. Its one of those topics that always tend to turn into a flame war, somehow.

There are a hell of a lot people I respect on here. Whether they like hybrids is the least of my worries. What they do is their own business, I just happen to not agree with this aspect.

Some people may not like the fact that I drive a Japanese car. I could care less. I, myself, don't like the fact that I drive one, but the choices out there aren't to my liking. :shrugs:

We all have our reasonings for things. And discussions like this help to get it all out in the open and voice our opinions, maybe at the very least enlightening occurs and we can see why other people feel so strongly about this or that.

If that 'other place' you talk about is where I think it is, you're much better off over here anyway. Things happen for a reason. ;)

Like Chris said, Kingsucks.com is known for the less intellectual bunch, that's why most of us left there for this place. I love being able to express my passionate feelings about something without having to wear a plastic hazmat suit....or worry about my account being banned and my posts deleted because I said something the 'gods' didn't approve of. :rolleyes:
 
Actually it was another site I was talking about.
I LOVE this site even though Im just a newbie here.

My account over there is set so I can not post.
 
:-offtopic

Hurley said:
I label things to the best of my knowledge and keep records like a fiend.
I got to see first hand how a fiend keeps records. It was...........impressive Connie lol, to say the least :crazy02:
 
wut



Well, the energy I don't expend worrying about the purity of the entire corn gene pool has to be expended SOMEWHERE. ;)

LOL
 
Taceas said:
But tricking snakes that normally eat corns into mating with them, imho, is wrong and unethical.
So I take it that braining, lizard scenting, chicken, tuna, and other ways to trick stubborn hatchlings into eating something they'd normally not eat, are also unethical and wrong. :shrugs:

Some people may not like the fact that I drive a Japanese car.
WHAT?!?!?!?! (Oh wait, I don't care either... :grin01: )
 
Serpwidgets said:
So I take it that braining, lizard scenting, chicken, tuna, and other ways to trick stubborn hatchlings into eating something they'd normally not eat, are also unethical and wrong. :shrugs:

Well, tuna-scenting may not be unethical, but it is wrong. It goes against the laws of god and nature. No sir, I don't like it. Hope I never need to do it. :nope:
 
BUT...there is a difference between tricking a hatchling into eating to save its life...and tricking one species to mate with another just because you want them to.
 
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