Pied-Sided Bloodred (SMR vs. McDonald lines)

I'm posting this just to give a little info on these. It seems for some reason people are reluctant to purchase Pied-Sided Bloodreds from the (McDonald) line.

In all reality, both lines re-produce in the same manner. Back in the 90's I started the Pied-Sided Bloodred project that is responsible for the (SMR) Pied-Sided Bloodreds that are out there now and it actaully started with a Pied-Sided Bloodred male that I aquired from Brad McDonald. At that time I didn't have a female to pair him with so I contacted friend, Don Soderberg to see if he had a female Bloodred that I could use to pursue this project.
When Don saw the pics. of the male and the white areas on this male he was surprised and sent me a adult female Bloodred to use. However, he did tell me that over the years he has seen Bloodreds displaying very small amounts of white, ( just a few scales ) coming up the latterals from the belly. He said he has NEVER seen one with the amount of white as the male I aquired. The female he sent me had this VERY minimal white displayed on just a couple latteral scales at the belly line.

When I bred the two adults and hatched the clutch, the result was ALL typical Bloodreds, none expressing ANY amounts of white. Don and I split the clutch. I ended up selling off ALL of my half as typical Bloodreds and Don held his back for future breedings. Not long after that I sold off my entire collection and got out of the hobby for a couple years.

In the mean time, Don continued the project and this is where the first (SMR) Pied-Sided Bloodreds were produced. Also during that same time, Brad McDonald was producing them in small numbers from the adults that produced the original male that I aquired from him.

Over the years, Brad started producing more in numbers, expressing more white areas and some just as nice as any produced out of the (SMR) line.

There has also been speculation that the (SMR) & (McDonald) lines were incompatible. In 2009 I bred a (SMR) Male P/S X (McDonald) Female P/S and the result was 50% of the clutch were Pied-Sided. I have a couple of these females and a male from this breeding to continue breeding trails.

Brad has since gotten out of the hobby and I aquired the remainders of what he had left, which are pictured below:

1.1 Sub-Adult (McDonald) Pied-Sided Bloodreds.....(Pic. 1 & 2)
1.0 2009 (McDonald) Pied-Sided Bloodred.............(Pic. 3 & 4)
0.1 2009 (SMR x McDonald) Pied-Sided Bloodred....(Pic. 5)

As you can see the (McDonald) line produces just as nice Pied-Sideds as the (SMR) line.
SO, what I'm getting at is, I'm not trying to take anything away from the (SMR) line here, I'm just trying to show that the (McDonald) line should not be written off as a um'...........a generic or lesser line.
Brad has produced some amazing looking Pied-Sided Bloodreds over the years with his line.

Thanks, Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Great post Walter. Thanks for the insight. Now, when and if I ever get enough extra cash, I WILL have at least a pair of them. One question I have about your post is this. You said you bred a SMR Pied to a McDonald Pied to see if they were compatible and half the clutch were pied. Shouldn't the entire clutch have been pied if both parents were homozygous Pied? If only half the clutch produced were pied does this mean that the "Pied" gene works like a co-dominant triat like in Boas and Pythons? Help me with this please. Either way, great Cornsnakes!

Jay

Jay@PJCReptiles said:

Great post Walter. Thanks for the insight. Now, when and if I ever get enough extra cash, I WILL have at least a pair of them. One question I have about your post is this. You said you bred a SMR Pied to a McDonald Pied to see if they were compatible and half the clutch were pied. Shouldn't the entire clutch have been pied if both parents were homozygous Pied? If only half the clutch produced were pied does this mean that the "Pied" gene works like a co-dominant triat like in Boas and Pythons? Help me with this please. Either way, great Cornsnakes!

Jay

Click to expand...

Well Jay, I see what you are asking and it's a very good question.
Seeing this breeding was done only last year, some more breeding trails need to be done to get further info on this.
It could be that one line was het for the other...:shrugs:

I plan to continue the SMR X McD breeding trials to see the outcomes of different pairings, such as:

SMR/McD x SMR/McD = ?

SMR x SMR/McD = ?

McD x SMR/McD = ?

Of course it won't be until 2011 or 12 before these pairings can be done from the F1 SMR/McD holdbacks.
As always, time will tell.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Jay@PJCReptiles said:

does this mean that the "Pied" gene works like a co-dominant triat like in Boas and Pythons? Help me with this please. Either way, great Cornsnakes!

Jay

Click to expand...

To answer this, Don and I have talked about this before and we........well I do not believe it to be a co-dominate/dominate trait because if it were, you should be able to breed a Pied-Sided to ANY other Corn and would see Pied-Sideds in the F1's.

Of course if the Pied-Sided trait IS only linked to the Bloodred trait (which still needs to be proven/dis-proven) then you would have to use some type of Bloodred X Pied-Sided for it to manifest in the F1's if it were co-dominate/dominate.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Walter,
Thanks for the reply but it did make another question arise (can you hear the little gears churning in my head?). Your reply said that it could be possible that one of the Pieds were het for the other based on the outcome of your last breeding. This is understandable as you stated that SMR stock came from McDonald stock via you. Which would tell me that they are one in the same.
However, if they are two separate alleles, based on your outcome of the past breedings, then somewhere along the way the lines got crossed. Here is my question/s. If both lines did get crossed either by you in your original breeding trials back in the 90's or by Don in more recent years and one of the animals you just bred last year is possible het for for the other, wouldn't this damper your breeding trials in the future with these F1's because now you have definitely crossed both lines making them het for one another? If both animals are het for each others lines then the outcome should be 100% pieds in the upcoming clutches if in fact they are two seperate lines, correct? How will this give you a definite as to whether both lines are compatible? Please keep in mind I am just trying to figure out how this gene works. Because based on your findings Pied is either present as two separate lines or it is in fact a co-dom trait (Man, I really hate that term as it is so misleading. It should be more like "Broken Trait" or "Broken Gene"). I hope I worded myself in a way you can understand as to what it is am trying to say. It just sucks that I am going to have to wait a couple more years to see your findings.

Jay

Jay@PJCReptiles said:

Walter,
Thanks for the reply but it did make another question arise (can you hear the little gears churning in my head?). Your reply said that it could be possible that one of the Pieds were het for the other based on the outcome of your last breeding. This is understandable as you stated that SMR stock came from McDonald stock via you. Which would tell me that they are one in the same.
However, if they are two separate alleles, based on your outcome of the past breedings, then somewhere along the way the lines got crossed. Here is my question/s. If both lines did get crossed either by you in your original breeding trials back in the 90's or by Don in more recent years and one of the animals you just bred last year is possible het for for the other, wouldn't this damper your breeding trials in the future with these F1's because now you have definitely crossed both lines making them het for one another? If both animals are het for each others lines then the outcome should be 100% pieds in the upcoming clutches if in fact they are two seperate lines, correct? How will this give you a definite as to whether both lines are compatible? Please keep in mind I am just trying to figure out how this gene works. Because based on your findings Pied is either present as two separate lines or it is in fact a co-dom trait (Man, I really hate that term as it is so misleading. It should be more like "Broken Trait" or "Broken Gene"). I hope I worded myself in a way you can understand as to what it is am trying to say. It just sucks that I am going to have to wait a couple more years to see your findings.

Jay

Click to expand...

Jay, it's possible. The "one being het for the other" is just a speculation and may not be the case. We are still trying to figure out this Pied-Sided gene and how it works as well.

Something else that was brought up, at another place, is that this breeding could have possibly produced 100% "Pied-Sideds" but only half are displaying actual white markings.
Don refered to the Non-white marked animals as "Cryptic Carriers", which is still a bit confusing to me............LOL.

I can really appreciate your quesitons and will always answer them honestly and to the best of my knowledge, but the actual main reason for this post was to hopefully open some eyes and have people see the McDonald line for what it is..............
a re-producable Pied-Sided Bloodred line just as nice as the SMR line.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Thanks for the reply Walter. I look forward to see the outcome of these trials.

Walter Smith said:

.......... but the actual main reason for this post was to hopefully open some eyes and have people see the McDonald line for what it is..............
a re-producable Pied-Sided Bloodred line just as nice as the SMR line.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Click to expand...

Your preaching to the choir with this one. Now gimme a pair. :grin01:

Jay

Walter Smith said:

I'm posting this just to give a little info on these. It seems for some reason people are reluctant to purchase Pied-Sided Bloodreds from the (McDonald) line.

As you can see the (McDonald) line produces just as nice Pied-Sideds as the (SMR) line.
SO, what I'm getting at is, I'm not trying to take anything away from the (SMR) line here, I'm just trying to show that the (McDonald) line should not be written off as a um'...........a generic or lesser line.
Brad has produced some amazing looking Pied-Sided Bloodreds over the years with his line.

Thanks, Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Click to expand...

I am still a relative newbie, and in the learning phase. And AM learning. Walter, you have some of the most beautiful snakes, and I have had lust in my heart after many. I just can't afford a pied at this time,...and...am not secure enough yet in my husbandry to be buying such valuable snakes.
I did not know there were "two lines", but really, in reading the whole thread it looks like one, so I personally would be looking at the snake and not necessarily the "line", in a prospective purchase.
There is a compliment in the above sentences. LOL.

Walter Smith said:

Something else that was brought up, at another place, is that this breeding could have possibly produced 100% "Pied-Sideds" but only half are displaying actual white markings.
Don refered to the Non-white marked animals as "Cryptic Carriers", which is still a bit confusing to me............LOL.

I can really appreciate you quesitons and will always answer them honestly and to the best of my knowledge, but the actual main reason for this post was to hopefully open some eyes and have people see the McDonald line for what it is..............
a re-producable Pied-Sided Bloodred line just as nice as the SMR line.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Click to expand...

The "cryptic carrier" thing does not seem that far out to me. I have read much on the pied subject. And look at it from the neural crest migration (Pritzel) downward and rearward development in the snake embryo of color and pattern. Which would/could, in pieds, I would think, vary greatly in how far the color/pattern 'descended' (and how much of a snake remained pigment-less). I mean, I have studied genetics, and mendelian is usually the entry point in the subject, easing people into the various types of inheritance. I can't think of a good example at the moment, but I am aware of human traits that seem to be inherited in a mendelian manner....but not phenotypically expressed in a perfect or typical or complete mendelian manner.

Jay@PJCReptiles said:

Thanks for the reply Walter. I look forward to see the outcome of these trials.


Your preaching to the choir with this one. Now gimme a pair. :grin01:

Jay

Click to expand...

LOL..............I hear ya Jay.
Um...............Ya need my Paypal address??

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

vetusvates said:

I am still a relative newbie, and in the learning phase. And AM learning. Walter, you have some of the most beautiful snakes, and I have had lust in my heart after many. I just can't afford a pied at this time,...and...am not secure enough yet in my husbandry to be buying such valuable snakes.
I did not know there were "two lines", but really, in reading the whole thread it looks like one, so I personally would be looking at the snake and not necessarily the "line", in a prospective purchase.
There is a compliment in the above sentences. LOL.

The "cryptic carrier" thing does not seem that far out to me. I have read much on the pied subject. And look at it from the neural crest migration (Pritzel) downward and rearward development in the snake embryo of color and pattern. Which would/could, in pieds, I would think, vary greatly in how far the color/pattern 'descended' (and how much of a snake remained pigment-less). I mean, I have studied genetics, and mendelian is usually the entry point in the subject, easing people into the various types of inheritance. I can't think of a good example at the moment, but I am aware of human traits that seem to be inherited in a mendelian manner....but not phenotypically expressed in a perfect or typical or complete mendelian manner.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the comment, I appreciate it.

Yeah, I don't fully understand the "Cryptic Carrier" thing. If I remember right, Don mentioned something on the line that it's possible the white marked animals are the extreme version of the non-white animals from the lines???
The non-white marked animals seem to display a virtually very red patternless latteral as hatchlings.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

"Cryptic carriers" would be like a paint horse. Just because both parents are colored does not mean the foal will be.

Nanci said:

"Cryptic carriers" would be like a paint horse. Just because both parents are colored does not mean the foal will be.

Click to expand...

Perfect example.

Nanci said:

"Cryptic carriers" would be like a paint horse. Just because both parents are colored does not mean the foal will be.

Click to expand...

So, the foal would still be considered a "Painted" considering it does not display the phenotype of the parents?
Is that right??

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Now you really got my mind in overdrive Walter. We got a Bloodred from Brent (Drizzt80) a year and a half ago and she looked/looks just as you have described in your past couple of posts. You had stated that Don had some Bloodreds years ago that were exhibiting some smaller white flecks coming up the laterals from the belly. You have also stated that these "Cryptic Carriers" exhibit extremely red, patternless laterals as babies. Well I need you to look at this girl. Like I said, we got this girl from Brent and I was completely amazed at how she looked when she showed up. I even PMed Brent and asked him if he was sure of what he had sent me. Let me know your thoughts.

Jay

Pic 1: Picture from Brent as hatchling.
Pic 2: Her after her first shed with us.
Pics 3-4: Some close-ups of the pigmentless areas.
Pic 5: Shows a good spot of it. (Late last summer)

Couple more pics of her from last fall. I will get some newer shots of her so you can see what she is turning into to see if she looks like something from your past breedings.

Jay

wow Jay. That is a really pretty snake!

Jay@PJCReptiles said:

Now you really got my mind in overdrive Walter. We got a Bloodred from Brent (Drizzt80) a year and a half ago and she looked/looks just as you have described in your past couple of posts. You had stated that Don had some Bloodreds years ago that were exhibiting some smaller white flecks coming up the laterals from the belly. You have also stated that these "Cryptic Carriers" exhibit extremely red, patternless laterals as babies. Well I need you to look at this girl. Like I said, we got this girl from Brent and I was completely amazed at how she looked when she showed up. I even PMed Brent and asked him if he was sure of what he had sent me. Let me know your thoughts.

Jay

Pic 1: Picture from Brent as hatchling.
Pic 2: Her after her first shed with us.
Pics 3-4: Some close-ups of the pigmentless areas.
Pic 5: Shows a good spot of it. (Late last summer)

Click to expand...

Yes Jay, the first pic. is exactly what I was talking about where I mentioned the VERY red laterals.
Also the pics. of the small amount of white areas that I also mentioned ( sorry, there is a reason for the loudness) is what I was talking about. I'll say it again, the female that Don sent me had this minimal amount of white on her.

It's possible there are unknown carriers out there considering I sold off my half of the original breeding as typical Bloodreds back in the 90's.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Stormy said:

wow Jay. That is a really pretty snake!

Click to expand...

Thank you very much. She comes from quality stock. If you are looking for one of these you should talk to Brent (Drizzt80). I think that Dakota Corns has some of the best looking Bloods on the market.

Jay

WALTER!?! WHY YOU YELLIN'!?! :grin01:

Jay

Jay@PJCReptiles said:

WALTER!?! WHY YOU YELLIN'!?! :grin01:

Jay

Click to expand...

Sorry Jay, but I'm pissed about something right now that has to do with this thread and a couple phone calls made like some grade-school taddle tales to Don. I have an idea of who they are, but that's all I'm gonna say about it.

Again, I appologize Jay.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!