Pied-Sided Bloodred (SMR vs. McDonald lines)

[Walter Smith]

I sure didn't take it that way, Walter. I thought it was very educational.

Thank You Nanci !!

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Nanci]

I saw a low expression pied-side at a show at a pretty incredible price. Lee Abbott had her. Someone from here bought her. I was telling Zorro about it and he asked me which line she was from. I only had a vague knowledge of there being a couple lines, and wouldn't have thought to ask Lee. I'm finding this discussion very interesting. They're _all_ out of my reach, unfortunately...

 

[Walter Smith]

More evidence that Don S and McDonald PS are not compatible, but both are reproducible.

Different genotypes with the same phenotype. Both cutting edge Morphs.

Not completely true Joe. I did breed a SMR X McD last year and the outcome was 50% Pied-Sideds. Was the non white animals "Cryptic Carriers", NO expression P/S's??????:shrugs:

As far as your latter part, I agree. Both cutting edge Morphs.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[crackerhead]

I sure didn't take it that way, Walter. I thought it was very educational.

Educational is obviously a subjective term here. Especially when one picks and chooses what truths to be held self evident.

I own a 1.1 McDonald Bloodred and 3.2 SMR P/S Bloodred The McDonald's while producing very fine bloodreds Do Not produce white sided Bloodred in the Mendelian fashion. Two HOMOzygous McDonald Bloodreds should produce 100% white sided offspring but they don't; not even close. The production of white is hit or miss. The most I have ever gotten was 2 low expression white out of a clutch of 22. Other clutches of equal size have yielded none. Whereas the SMR line consistently produces P/S animals from high white to low expression. I've been breeding the McDonalds for three years now which equates to close to a hundred hatchlings. Two white sided animals does not say Mendelian genetics to me.
And as for compatibility, they are most probably not compatible. The fact that some showed up in a pairing of the two animals Walter bred most probably speaks to the animals both carrying the two genes. One breeding should not be the determining factor in a line of animals as intermixed as bloods.
And let's all be real honest here Walter, you would not even sniff in the direction of this thread if it were not the fact that you have a pair of McDonald Bloodreds that no one has chosen to buy because of the questionable genetic heritability of the trait they are being sold to possess. So of course what you got called on the carpet on is 100% accurate; you have an agenda, nothing more. Please don't condescend to me or any one else who knows the whole unedited truth by pretending that this is an exercise in edification. Man up and end this farce.
Terri

 

[Walter Smith]

Educational is obviously a subjective term here. Especially when one picks and chooses what truths to be held self evident.

I own a 1.1 McDonald Bloodred and 3.2 SMR P/S Bloodred The McDonald's while producing very fine bloodreds Do Not produce white sided Bloodred in the Mendelian fashion. Two heterozygous McDonald Bloodreds should produce 100% white sided offspring but they don't; not even close. The production of white is hit or miss. The most I have ever gotten was 2 low expression white out of a clutch of 22. Other clutches of equal size have yielded none. Whereas the SMR line consistently produces P/S animals from high white to low expression. I've been breeding the McDonalds for three years now which equates to close to a hundred hatchlings. Two white sided animals does not say Mendelian genetics to me.
And as for compatibility, they are most probably not compatible. The fact that some showed up in a pairing of the two animals Walter bred most probably speaks to the animals both carrying the two genes. One breeding should not be the determining factor in a line of animals as intermixed as bloods.
And let's all be real honest here Walter, you would not even sniff in the direction of this thread if it were not the fact that you have a pair of McDonald Bloodreds that no one has chosen to buy because of the questionable genetic heritability of the trait they are being sold to possess. So of course what you got called on the carpet on is 100% accurate; you have an agenda, nothing more. Please don't condescend to me or any one else who knows the whole unedited truth by pretending that this is an exercise in edification. Man up and end this farce.
Terri

Terri,
for one thing you need to get your facts correct. I'm not saying the McD line produces in a Mendelian way (where is that in my post?), nor would a pair of hets produce 100% Pied-Sideds as you say, they would only produce in theory 1/4 Pied-Sideds.

I don't know where you and a few others get off on slamming me or for what reason. There is NOT A THING in my post that is not true.

The McDonald line produces just as nice P/S animals as the SMR line does. I know and have known Brad personally for years I have seen countless numbers of P/S produced by Brad and was actually very surprised at how nice they were.

And as far as the SMR line producing consistanly P/S animals, that's not always ture from my experience. The two P/S adults I had here of Don's for two years produced less than 1/2 very low expression P/S offspring and that's coming from two adult P/S expressing white in Med. & Low expression.

You can't just go by the animals you posses, weather it be SMR or McD

Guess I have to check another one off the list........anyone else from "The Click"??

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[vetusvates]

Well, before I bow out of this, I just wanted to say that I entered this as an academic discussion only, hoping to learn. I may not be able to afford the snakes yet, but I do admire and respect all the efforts you high-end-breeders go to, and I do daydream about the thought and work that goes into your efforts.

 

[Walter Smith]

Well, before I bow out of this, I just wanted to say that I entered this as an academic discussion only, hoping to learn. I may not be able to afford the snakes yet, but I do admire and respect all the efforts you high-end-breeders go to, and I do daydream about the thought and work that goes into your efforts.

Well if you learned anything, I hope it was, watch who you think your friends are

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Nanci]

I wish it didn't have to be like this...

 

[crackerhead]

Terri,
nor would a pair of hets produce 100% Pied-Sideds as you say, they would only produce in theory 1/4 Pied-Sideds.
One of the first truths spoken. Sad that it was because of a mistake /misspelling on my part
You can't just go by the animals you posses, weather it be SMR or McD
But given you are pointing out mistakes what does the Weather have to do with this discussion?
Guess I have to check another one off the list........anyone else from "The Click"??

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Oh well now that I'm off the list,

The Click

 

[Walter Smith]

I wish it didn't have to be like this...

Me too Nanci, me too.

I just don't understand this crap :shrugs:

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Walter Smith]

Oh well now that I'm off the list,

The Click

What part of my post is NOT TRUE Terri?

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Walter Smith]

What part of my post is NOT TRUE Terri?

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Didn't think there would be an answer to this question :roflmao:

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[zorro]

I can show the first one, you told Don you posted to the thread that the female he sent you had some white in the side. Well I have your original post ( I copied it before you changed it) and there is a sentence missing that is in your current version of your first post:
"The female he sent me had this VERY minimal white displayed on just a couple latteral scales at the belly line."

This and the omission of the facts causes pain in the people that have helped you the most.
Your emails back and forth with Don should have stayed private and has only hurt you.
For this I would love to be a member of the "Click"
Bye
John

 

[Walter Smith]

I can show the first one, you told Don you posted to the thread that the female he sent you had some white in the side. Well I have your original post ( I copied it before you changed it) and there is a sentence missing that is in your current version of your first post:
"The female he sent me had this VERY minimal white displayed on just a couple latteral scales at the belly line."

This and the omission of the facts causes pain in the people that have helped you the most.
Your emails back and forth with Don should have stayed private and has only hurt you.
For this I would love to be a member of the "Click"
Bye
John

That is a bunch of crap John, the post is showing as it was written. The only reason for the edit is to correct some mispelled words.

As far as you wanting to be "In The Click" you were already there.

I seriously don't understand why this is happening and what I'm being slammed for?? :shrugs:
I did not post anything that is not true and that's where NO ONE can come up with something that isn't true. Where is it that I make the McD line better or superior to the SMR line? Where is anything I posted not true?

Find it and show me !!

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Camby]

That is a bunch of crap John, the post is showing as it was written. The only reason for the edit is to correct some mispelled words.

I do not know you very well Walter or have a dog in this fight, my pied sided bloods are from the SMR line. That said, it seems odd that you took time to edit the original post on this thread and correct misspelled words, but you haven't taken the time to correct any subsequent posts in this thread. It also seems odd that so many trusted names are saying the same thing, you edited the part about the SMR animal. Just an observation.

I seriously don't understand why this is happening and what I'm being slammed for?? :shrugs:
I did not post anything that is not true and that's where NO ONE can come up with something that isn't true. Where is it that I make the McD line better or superior to the SMR line? Where is anything I posted not true?

Find it and show me !!

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Again, not my fight, but to answer your question, I think two things here have attributed to certain people going after you. When I read your first post starting this thread, it just seemed odd to me. I linked my friend here in SC and told him the post was almost written like you were "backed into a corner". You seemed desperate to prove something rather than educate. Until Terri made her post I wans't sure why it seemed that way to me. Then the light went off, "Walter has been trying for months to sell some PS Bloodreds and this post was an attempt to market those animals I think Terri nailed it.

Then you openly discussed your and Don's private conversation. Seems pety to me. I have a very well known breeder that I dislike a great deal and he likely feels the same towards me, but we have never openly argued or posted negative things about one another. Maybe I am wrong, but these two actions are likey what has casued the backlash.

Just my 2 cents and answers to the questions you posed.

dc

 

[Walter Smith]

I do not know you very well Walter or have a dog in this fight, my pied sided bloods are from the SMR line. That said, it seems odd that you took time to edit the original post on this thread and correct misspelled words, but you haven't taken the time to correct any subsequent posts in this thread. It also seems odd that so many trusted names are saying the same thing, you edited the part about the SMR animal. Just an observation.




Again, not my fight, but to answer your question, I think two things here have attributed to certain people going after you. When I read your first post starting this thread, it just seemed odd to me. I linked my friend here in SC and told him the post was almost written like you were "backed into a corner". You seemed desperate to prove something rather than educate. Until Terri made her post I wans't sure why it seemed that way to me. Then the light went off, "Walter has been trying for months to sell some PS Bloodreds and this post was an attempt to market those animals I think Terri nailed it.

Then you openly discussed your and Don's private conversation. Seems pety to me. I have a very well known breeder that I dislike a great deal and he likely feels the same towards me, but we have never openly argued or posted negative things about one another. Maybe I am wrong, but these two actions are likey what has casued the backlash.

Just my 2 cents and answers to the questions you posed.

dc

DC,
You defiantly have a right to post your opinion. As far as not editig other posts, don't have a reason, I just noticed that there were mispelled words in the original post and corrected them.

As far as the post being made for the reason of not selling them, that's not true. I already mentioned multiple times why I posted this. Someone who goes by "stormy" here asked about them and I decided to post the info up to explain, the McD line produces nice animals as does the SMR line.

I guess I shouldn't have even mentioned the SMR line because for some reason people are taking offense to this. Why, maybe considering the SMR line is the only line they deal with. I guess I should have not mention the very little bit of Don's and my email, but again I was just saying why I was so twisted about it.

Of course I'm not going to sit and be slammed for something I did not do wrong, I will defend myself. There is no reason what-so-ever that anyone should have taken this post other than what is written. I believe there is more to it, but I'm not going to get into that.

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[pgr8dnlvr]

Now you really got my mind in overdrive Walter. We got a Bloodred from Brent (Drizzt80) a year and a half ago and she looked/looks just as you have described in your past couple of posts. You had stated that Don had some Bloodreds years ago that were exhibiting some smaller white flecks coming up the laterals from the belly. You have also stated that these "Cryptic Carriers" exhibit extremely red, patternless laterals as babies. Well I need you to look at this girl. Like I said, we got this girl from Brent and I was completely amazed at how she looked when she showed up. I even PMed Brent and asked him if he was sure of what he had sent me. Let me know your thoughts.

Jay

Pic 1: Picture from Brent as hatchling.
Pic 2: Her after her first shed with us.
Pics 3-4: Some close-ups of the pigmentless areas.
Pic 5: Shows a good spot of it. (Late last summer)

I don't have much to add on the other points of discussion on here but someday, maybe I'll be able to add data too.. I have a mcdonald line male and a bunch of possible homo and het SMR's, some of which should reproduce this year, I'm actually hoping for eggs in a week or so from the first pairing...

Anywho.... this comment about Brent got me really fired up!

I know everyones just going to immediately ask for pictures buuuuuut.... Last season I did a co-breeding pairing of a female hypo blood from Brent, bred to a granite het hypo from Rich Hume Lines. I got some verrrrrry strange results. The babies blew me away in looks, particularly the crazy diffusion and a number looked like they had more "pied sidedness" to them than a couple low expression SMR's I have from Rob?!?!?! I believe one even has the white nose scales. I sold the couple that had the definite look from my half of the babies, but the person I did the co-breed with has kept a great group. We are also re-doing the pairing <tonight was actually their first lock up> I wonder if Brent really does/did have something going on with his bloods?!?!?

Rebecca

Sorry for the lack of pics, but as I said, I sold my babies from this pairing and the person who I am doing the co-breeds with is just not one for pics Maybe if I drop by for a visit someday...

 

[torsten]

If a McD line male sired the SMR line then aren't they pretty much identical genetically anyway?

The consensus seems to be that SMR line is inherited more consistantly, SMR X SMR on current breedings seems to produce more Pied-Sideds in a cluch compared to Mcd X McD.
However, could have nothing to do with them being genetically different morphs of pied as much as carrying a different range of alleles that 'enhance' that affect.
That be due to a greater 'selective breeding' of the SMR line. A thought I have had on how the pied-sided could be working is that 'pied-sided' is inherited in some form (not exactly sure what of the standard labels would describe it best), but then the degree of white shown is down to selective breeding effecting the number of alleles in the pied-sided 'set' that it carries. This could explain the apparent lack of compatability between the two lines if both lines carry the 'pied-sided' gene but each line has a different range of 'pied alleles' in the set. And therfore the result from breeding them together would be like breeding two completely different lines of candycane together, both parents can be great candycanes but if they have through selective breeding ended up with differant ranges of alleles causing the same affect the offspring may be poor candycane or not look like candycanes at all. This could tie in with the cryptic carrier theory where those that carry the 'pied-gene' but don't carry enough of the alleles in the 'pied set' to actually express it.

I have both lines and have quality pied-sideds from both. I fact I would say that my highest white pied is a Mcd line pied, but I also have awesome SMR line pieds... Currently the only real difference between them appears to be the consistancy of their inheritance, in which case the SMR line could be seen to be 'better'.

But there are also 1 or two 'new' lines of pieds popping up in Europe, Arjan has a number of pieds and I don't think he knows if they are from either the SMR or McD line, and Frank shaub also has a stunning Pied, again, I think that has cropped up seperately to Arjans and is known to be related to the SMR or McD lines...

 

[chuk_138]

Please excuse me if I step on some toes here. As a newer member to this site, I have noticed there seems to be a lot of bad blood between many people. Let me tell you that your actions are equivalent to that of sixth-grader. If you feel the need to put someone down, why not just send a private message? You are setting a bad example of netiquette for us, the new members. If the original post was edited, I didn't read it before said edit. Having read it after, I found nothing misleading or confusing. Walter merely stated that the McD animals can express just as nice a p/s as the SMR, maybe just not as often. I don't personally know anyone here, but I have made a note of the few who I'll be glad to have no acquaintance with. Thank you for showing what "love" this community has to offer.

 

[El Jefe]

Don was great enough to allow us to get a trio from him that year.
In 2007 we bred the trio of P/S's and got all P/S babies.

Was this repeated in 2008 and 2009? If so, did you always get 100% pied-sided bloodreds when SMR P/S's are bred together? Is this always the case?

We also bred the P/S male to the daughters of Brad's male.
That breeding produced no P/S's.

Did you happen to do any other SMR crosses with those animals from Brad's line? I.e. Brad's male to SMR females or "hets"?