60 years ago today....

[Serpwidgets]

If you believe Michael Moore

So many punch lines, so little time... :sidestep:

". . . it is about doing what's right."

I second that.

 

[Drizzt80]

If you believe Michael Moore,. . .

Your credibility just went right down the toilet . . . :toiletgra

D80

 

[CAV]

I really hope this was a tongue in cheek post

Don't forget about the intelligence report warning Bin Laden was planning to use aircraft to attack. Bush picked people who would be yes-men (and yes-women in C. Rice's case), and although somewhat qualified, most of them weren't the BEST people he could have picked, if he hadn't been going for demographics. Colin Powell was probably the best, but he resigned and probably wished he had never taken the job in the first place. If you believe Michael Moore, Bush was off playing golf for weeks at a time instead of actively pursuing his charge as Commander in Chief. As far as 'at the White House, doing his job' vs. 'slacking', I think Clinton was much more on top of what was going on, on a day by day and hour by hour basis, and I personally don't think he and his staff would have ignored the intelligence report. There was no 9-11 under Clinton. There was under Bush, and it was well after Bush had taken over. I think if Clinton had been president, the cruise missiles would have been flying as SOON as the Afghanistan link was discovered, and Bin Laden would have been dead long ago. People like to portray Bush as 'tough', but I think Clinton could probably be much more of a mean SOB than he ever could. Of course that might have been one reason why 9-11 wasn't even attempted until after Clinton was out of the White House (and not because he was playing golf in Texas.)

Please tell me this was meant as a joke Larry and you don't seriously believe this....................

 

[Shep151]

I've heard love is blind. Ya think maybe somebody's in love with Clinton?

 

[MegF.]

Man, you made me say something else, Larry!!! (Welcome back Cav!)...Clinton did ignore intelligence reports. As you recall, we had 3 major attacks by Bin Laden, including one at the trade center, long before he used the planes. Our embassy was bombed, one of our ships was bombed, and the trade center parking structure was bombed. As I recall, Clinton "vowed to get the perpetrators", but like O.J. seems to have looked under an interns skirts for them!

 

[Mitch]

Cav....welcome home. Those missions are always the most rewarding. I have done much of the same type thing in the South Pacific. I see you are a Officer but i wont hold that against you :cheers: .
To anyone that i may have offended in my previous post, i am sorry...but when you read about Cav's recent trip overseas...how can you come to any other conclusion?
I all of my travels around the world...i have seen some fantastic things and met some wonderful people but no matter where i went i would thank god that i live in America.

Mitch

 

[wikkedkornman]

I believe it was you who started the name calling when you felt the need to call my President an 'idiot'. By saying that, you're implying that those who voted for him are also idiots because why would intelligent people elect an idiot, right?.

i may have called bush an idiot, but i never attacked you. i'm entitled to my opinion(s). and no joe, just because someone voted for him doesn't make them an idiot. just because someone has a different view and/or opinion, it doesn't make them an idiot. apparently you think different. if someone has a different opinion than yours, they must be an idiot.shows your maturity level, imo. fine, whatever. i won't apologize for my opinions, no matter how unpopular they may be. i will however rephrase and say " in my opinion, Bush is an idiot".

Yeah, that's it. I emailed Rich before and slipped him $10 so I could call you an idiot. Give me a break. I'm only calling you what everyone else thinks, so really there's not a big deal.

i was referring to your contributing member status. you know the $25 you gave this site. c'mon joe, use your head.

And building on that, do you REALLY think I give a flying rat arse what YOU think of me?

the feeling is most definately mutual

no weapons of mass destruction were found. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/

no joe, i don't have a problem with a president that believes in God. i have a problem with him using God as his reason for doing things, and he's done so on more than 1 occasion ( i remember SNL doing a skit where God asked Bush to please leave his name out of the speeches). like princess said, you let an arab say that the reason they're doing things is for Allah, and he's an extremist or terrorist. Did it ever don on you that maybe some of the middle-easterners look at Bush as the terrorist? i don't expect you to understand what i'm saying though.


we obviuosly don't agree on things, and that's fine. you won't change my opinions, and i know i won't change yours. let's just agree to disagree.


Sojkas: august first 1944 was the polish uprising. i don't know what all happened on the dates you specified, but i think 1939 was the year germany invaded poland, so i'm sure lots of bad things did happen over there at that time.

 

[wikkedkornman]

". . . it is about doing what's right."

and who are we to decide what's "right" for everyone? everyone being other countries. no wonder SOME places consider us to be bullies. "do things our way, or pay the price". i'm just saying that i don't agree with it. it's MY OPINION and i'm entitled to it.

 

[Serpwidgets]

and who are we to decide what's "right" for everyone? everyone being other countries. no wonder SOME places consider us to be bullies. "do things our way, or pay the price". i'm just saying that i don't agree with it.

Gee, why don't you ask that of the people in northern states who abolished slavery in the southern states.

The same question applies to you: who exactly are you to decide what is right for others to decide upon?

So if I declare myself a soveriegn nation and chain my kids to the back fence in my yard and beat them to death, that's not for you to decide if it's right or wrong either. It's my country and you are a bully to stop me.

You choose to draw an arbitrary line somewhere, others decide to arbitrarily draw the line elsewhere. I happen to believe that we have a responsibility to our "neighbors" not just in the sense of the people whose property line we share, but also other human beings who are being oppressed by brutal dictatorships, including what was happening in Iraq. You are welcome to believe differently.

I also think that we've been fortunate enough so far to survive the discovery of element 92 because up to this point the only way it could be utilized was by nations that were well-industrialized and civilized, with leaders who were at least somewhat accountable to their citizens. Nowadays there are plenty of "nations" becoming industrialized enough and wealthy enough to create the means to kill significant portions (if not all of) the human population, and some of them happen to be run by a single dictator who does not give a rip about humanity or anything other than his own power and is not accountable to anyone. The world is not as simple as it used to be.

it's MY OPINION and i'm entitled to it.

That's great that you have your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Nobody has said otherwise. Other people are also entitled to their opinions about what is right, and about you and your opinion.

 

[wikkedkornman]

That's great that you have your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Nobody has said otherwise. Other people are also entitled to their opinions about what is right, and about you and your opinion.

that's right, you're 100% correct. that's why you don't see me calling people that don't agree with me idiots and such. why? because i have respect for others opinions. while i might not agree, i have enough respect not to bash them. some people could learn a thing or 2 about that!


your comment about beating your kids: if you wanna denounce your citizenship and go to another country, beat your kids all you want, i could care less. we need to take care of things going on here, before we worry about saving the rest of the world,IMO.

Do you think if a dictator took over the USA that these other countries will coming running to help us? i don't. i might very well be wrong, but i don't think it would happen. we'd have to fend for ourselves.
hell, it's pretty common knowledge that every other country that we've trained their military has turned on us at some point. we trained the iraqi's in their war with iran, and look at how that turned out. we trained the afghani's and look how that turned out. think about it.

 

[Clint Boyer]

your comment about beating your kids: if you wanna denounce your citizenship and go to another country, beat your kids all you want, i could care less. we need to take care of things going on here, before we worry about saving the rest of the world,IMO.

I don't think he said anything about going to a different country. I beleive he meant it as he is your nieghbor, but just a soveriegn nation.

The point being that the world is a very small place and we can't just hide on our own little side. It would be like an ostrich burrying it's head in the sand and feeling safe.

 

[Mitch]

hell, it's pretty common knowledge that every other country that we've trained their military has turned on us at some point.

Is that your "Opinion"? Because it sure isn't a factual statement. I have personally done training with the Navy's and Coast Guard of 7 diferent countries over the last 18 years and not one has turned on us. I guess maybe you were just talking about things that you have no idea about.

Mitch

 

[Serpwidgets]

Do you think if a dictator took over the USA that these other countries will coming running to help us? i don't. i might very well be wrong, but i don't think it would happen. we'd have to fend for ourselves.

That's a rather crude method of moral reasoning, IMO.

If I'm buying something and someone gives me back too much change, I don't stop to decide whether or not I think they would steal from me. I give them back their money because it is the right thing to do. If I don't expect myself to act in good faith, how can I justify expecting anyone else to?

 

[larryg]

Please tell me this was meant as a joke Larry and you don't seriously believe this....................

Personally, I think Bush was hoping we'd get attacked (and turning a blind eye, at least to a certain extent), so he'd have an excuse to go to war with Iraq and invade the country, as he and Cheney had been talking about since he took over as President. Yes, I really do believe that, in case there is any question.

Clinton did a good job of defending this country. Maybe if some small-minded, prudish Republicans had been concentrating on National Security instead of spending uncountable manhours pursuing a phantom (Whitewater, Monica, etc.), 9-11 might not have happened. The Monica fiasco is one good piece of evidence that many Americans ARE stupid. In any other civilized country, something so innane would have not received SO much attention. Way to go, Senators, Congressmen, Ken Starr, etc. Do ya'll feel better now that you can sit back and claim it was Clinton's fault that 9-11 happened, even though you had your heads up your butts, worrying about something SO stupid for SO long, instead of doing what the people elected you for?

 

[larryg]

Just wanted to add that it always bothered me Clinton did not immediately 'strike back' after the USS Cole bombing. It did happen 3 months before Bush took over. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Hijazi That tells what happened to one of the planners a couple of years later. I would say that Clinton's CIA was responsible for figuring out who was responsible for the bombing, although the CIA did not decide to kill them (and apparently publicly annouce it) until some time later. My uncle retired from Naval Intelligence, and I know that a lot of what goes on in the world is 'unofficial.' Something may or may not have 'unofficially' happened in Yemen before Clinton left office. They may have decided that doing nothing right then and simply watching them was the best solution. Using a missile carried by an unmanned drone plane was probably psychological warfare, as much as anything.

By the way, I'd vote for Pat Buchanan if he were running against Bush or probably even Kerry. I'm more of a Libertarian and prefer to strictly follow the Constitution, more than anything. I believe in States' Rights, and I don't like Bush's New Federalism. I do believe in a strong national defense and some protectionism and tariffs, when it comes to international trade, so I'm not truly an economic Libertarian. I don't think Clinton was perfect, but he did balance a screwed-up budget and did exercise fiscal responsibility. Bush's tax cutting for the very wealthy and racking up the deficit to all time highs is what I find really bad.

 

[Drizzt80]

. . . I know that a lot of what goes on in the world is 'unofficial.' Something may or may not have 'unofficially' happened in Yemen before Clinton left office. They may have decided that doing nothing right then and simply watching them was the best solution. Using a missile carried by an unmanned drone plane was probably psychological warfare, as much as anything.

How is Clinton doing nothing (when he supposedly knew something) better than Bush doing something when some things were known?? In my opinion, it's pretty un-American when you KNOW who stole your lunch money and you don't do anything about it. Gee, and the unmanned drone plane that Clinton 'ordered' . . . I believe Bush #1 was criticized for serving his military as a pilot and engaging in warfare from above . . .oh wait, Clinton wouldn't know anything about serving in the military . . . oops! My bad! :eek1:

Bush's tax cutting for the very wealthy and racking up the deficit to all time highs is what I find really bad.

I'm not an economist, but I just LOVE how everyone seems to think the economy is affected at the flip of a switch . . . seriously?!

:toiletgra

You sound as though you are repeating information from a Michael Moore handbook or something

D80

 

[wikkedkornman]

Is that your "Opinion"? Because it sure isn't a factual statement. I have personally done training with the Navy's and Coast Guard of 7 diferent countries over the last 18 years and not one has turned on us. I guess maybe you were just talking about things that you have no idea about.

Mitch

maybe those countries you speak of haven't turned on us.........yet. i gave my examples, and that is FACT. look it up.

my point Clint was that we need to concentrate on what's going on over here before we worry about helping the rest of the world,IMO. if my next door neighbor is beating the hell out of their kids, then yeah, i'm gonna speak up, more than likely by going to pay said neighbor a little visit with my friend,Louie (aka Louisville Slugger- a ball bat).

i am sympathetic to what goes on in other nations, but i just believe we should worry about our own first.

 

[wikkedkornman]

How is Clinton doing nothing (when he supposedly knew something) better than Bush doing something when some things were known?D80

supposedly bush knew the 9-11 attacks were coming. he chose to go to Florida and listen to school kids read stories instead of taking the proper steps to protect his country. nice.

 

[Drizzt80]

maybe those countries you speak of haven't turned on us.........yet. i gave my examples, and that is FACT. look it up.

You gave the example of two . . . 2 . . . TWO! countries of the how many of hundreds of countries in the world . . . SERIOUSLY?! This is your factual argument!!??

Even as a teacher I know our educational system has its problems . . . but I didn't know it was this serious. :eek1:

D80

 

[Drizzt80]

supposedly bush knew the 9-11 attacks were coming. he chose to go to Florida and listen to school kids read stories instead of taking the proper steps to protect his country. nice.

. . . Hey, I got a bridge to sell ya! Interested? Beach front property in AZ?

Get serious, please?!

D80