60 years ago today....

[larryg]

How is Clinton doing nothing (when he supposedly knew something) better than Bush doing something when some things were known?? In my opinion, it's pretty un-American when you KNOW who stole your lunch money and you don't do anything about it. Gee, and the unmanned drone plane that Clinton 'ordered' . . . I believe Bush #1 was criticized for serving his military as a pilot and engaging in warfare from above . . .oh wait, Clinton wouldn't know anything about serving in the military . . . oops! My bad! :eek1:


I'm not an economist, but I just LOVE how everyone seems to think the economy is affected at the flip of a switch . . . seriously?!

:toiletgra

You sound as though you are repeating information from a Michael Moore handbook or something

D80

You don't have to tell me you aren't an economist (I can tell.) Btw, I am no fan of Michael Moore's. To imply that I am a mindless idiot who is spoonfed propraganda only makes yourself look foolish, at least to anyone who knows me and knows that I do not blindly follow the advice of anyone.

 

[larryg]

I find this statement utterly fascinating considering the rant you just launched regarding Monica-gate. Clinton wasn't investigated and subsequently impeached because he had sex with an intern, it was because HE VIOLATED THE BASIC FABRIC OF OUR NATION'S LAWS AND HIS CONSTITUTIONAL OATH BY UNEQUIVICALLY COMMITING PERJURY.
.

Yes, Yes, Yes... He didn't tell the Paul Jones legal team that he and Monica had 'not had sex.' How absurd (and disgraceful/irresponsible) that the President's time was ever wasted over something like this. I know many of you made up your minds that he was 'the evil Slick Willy' way back when he first got elected, and you don't want anybody to confuse you with the facts.

 

[Alistani]

I have been getting caught up with this post and I found that this particular statement REALLY irked me this morning, so I must share my feelings...

and by the way, bush sat for atleast another 5 minutes after the 2nd plane hit.

So did EVERY bloody American! So, what, because he's president he wasn't allowed to feel the same way as everyone else? It wasn't supposed to phase him? Do you remember how you felt when you found out that terrorists crashed planes into the World Trade Center, murdering so very many innocent people and destroying the lives of countless others? I remember how I felt. And Bush wasn't allowed/supposed to feel the same way? It took me a hell of a lot longer to absorb the knowledge and get myself going than 5 minutes. It shook me to the core and I for one think that he pulled himself together in pretty good time.
And regarding your opinion on whether or not we should help other countries... It is my belief that if someone needs help (I don't care where the hell they are) you help them. No ifs ands or buts. You help your fellow man whether he lives next door or on the other side of the world. What country they are from shouldn't even enter into the equasion. We are all human beings, and no matter where we live, we should help people in need. And by saying that we should just look after our own and let the other countries in the world look out for themselves, well that's just heartless IMO, and very isolationist. A lot of those countries CAN'T look after themselves properly, so we're just supposed to let those people suffer because, hey, they aren't Americans- too bad for them? That's just not right. It's not about forcing our way of life on other people, it's about saving lives and making conditions better for people who have 1 hole-in-the-ground toilet for an entire school. Is building a proper bathroom forcing our lifestyle on a foreign country? No. It is providing proper sanitary conditions for children, and I'm sure greatly improving their health. No child should ever have to live with those kind of conditions (nor adults). And if it means that we have to do the job, we do it, because it is the RIGHT thing to do.
Your views make you seem as though you only value Americans and don't really care about anyone else. That's just small and sad to me, very cold and callous. It makes me very glad someone with your opinion is not running this country.
And I believe I am done ranting for now. Thanks for reading, and please forgive my long-winded views.

~Lisa

 

[Serpwidgets]

I happen to be a democrat, but I also didn't vote for the last 2 terms, so I can't bitch.

Hmm, I disagree with this, and find it unfortunate that this is such a prevalent attitude today. The republic functions whether or not everyone votes, and even if not very many vote. The idea is that people have the right to vote or NOT vote, and relies on the concept that those who vote are those who actually care enough to not only vote, but to also inform themselves on the issues that matter to them and cast a vote because they know what they're voting about.

I find campaigns like MTV's "get out and vote" very disturbing. The same goes for individuals who run around saying "it's your civic/patriotic duty" and/or "you have no right to complain if you don't vote." They do not encourage people to find out what is going on or what any of it means, but just to go pull a lever that affects the destiny of a lot of people.

I consider it patriotic and doing your civic duty to stay OUT of the voting booth if you do not spend the time and effort to find out what's going on. If everyone spent all day obsessing on politics, we wouldn't ever get anything else done. Not everyone has the time or interest to put into being politically active/aware/informed, and society functions better if those people don't spend their time on it, but instead do what they do to actually contribute their strengths to society and make real things happen every day. Again, voting does not require EVERYONE to vote in order for the general will of the people to be accurately expressed, and the only thing uninformed votes do is pollute the sample with random noise.

I consider it unAmerican to run out and vote simply because MTV said so, or because "I want to have the right to complain when it doesn't all go my way." IMO that is not what makes a republic great.

 

[Mitch]

Excellent post Serp....i couldn't have said it any better.

Mitch

 

[Duff]

* Spoken as Uncle Sam, channeling the timeless and immortal wisdom of Eddie Murphy...

"It's my house, and if you don't like it, get the f**k out" :sidestep:

'Nuff said

 

[larryg]

Hmm, I disagree with this, and find it unfortunate that this is such a prevalent attitude today. The republic functions whether or not everyone votes, and even if not very many vote. The idea is that people have the right to vote or NOT vote, and relies on the concept that those who vote are those who actually care enough to not only vote, but to also inform themselves on the issues that matter to them and cast a vote because they know what they're voting about.

I find campaigns like MTV's "get out and vote" very disturbing. The same goes for individuals who run around saying "it's your civic/patriotic duty" and/or "you have no right to complain if you don't vote." They do not encourage people to find out what is going on or what any of it means, but just to go pull a lever that affects the destiny of a lot of people.

I consider it patriotic and doing your civic duty to stay OUT of the voting booth if you do not spend the time and effort to find out what's going on. If everyone spent all day obsessing on politics, we wouldn't ever get anything else done. Not everyone has the time or interest to put into being politically active/aware/informed, and society functions better if those people don't spend their time on it, but instead do what they do to actually contribute their strengths to society and make real things happen every day. Again, voting does not require EVERYONE to vote in order for the general will of the people to be accurately expressed, and the only thing uninformed votes do is pollute the sample with random noise.

I consider it unAmerican to run out and vote simply because MTV said so, or because "I want to have the right to complain when it doesn't all go my way." IMO that is not what makes a republic great.

Look at MTV viewers as a group/demographic. You may not have noticed, but I think MTV tended to endorse Democrats (Clinton, Kerry.) I also think it's safe to say that at least 2/3 of the votes would have been Democratic, based on age and other factors. So if they get 300,000 people to vote, that's 100,000 for Bush and 200,000 for Kerry, or a net gain of 100,000 for Kerry. They are 'playing the percentages.'

Labor unions have been doing the same thing for generations, except they explicitly TELL you who to vote for. You know Jerry Falwell is telling his people "Now go out and vote, no matter who it's for." That's no different than MTV, in my opinion. They know the demographics they have, and obviously most of the music community all dislike Bush, from hip hop to Bono to Ozzy Ozborne. It's not the most scientific way to conduct an election, with some people making uninformed decisions, but many voters simply vote a straight-party ticket, anyway. If that's how they want to vote, why should I tell them differently? Elections have come down to a combination of advertising dollars and demographics.

 

[jazzgeek]

Also include:
ABC
NBC
CBS
Fox News
CNN
MSNBC
Al Jazeera
AP
NPR
US News & World Report
Time
Newsweek
USA Today
New York Times
Washington Post
Chicago Tribune
etc etc etc.

My point exactly. All "news" is infused with bias, to a greater or lesser degree. To think that a "slant" only comes from the right or the left is to be naive at best, or at worst, as much of a shill for whatever your political agenda happens to be.

And wow, for a guy who doesn't read a newspaper or watch the news, this is quite a list you've compiled.

regards,
jazz

 

[Serpwidgets]

Look at MTV viewers as a group/demographic. You may not have noticed, but I think MTV tended to endorse Democrats (Clinton, Kerry.) I also think it's safe to say that at least 2/3 of the votes would have been Democratic, based on age and other factors. So if they get 300,000 people to vote, that's 100,000 for Bush and 200,000 for Kerry, or a net gain of 100,000 for Kerry. They are 'playing the percentages.'

I get the point, and I agree. It's "good strategy."

But at the same time it is rather cynical (read: I don't care how the system works or whether it works properly as long as I "win") and IMO that's not really the point of holding elections and having the right to vote.

 

[jazzgeek]

* Spoken as Uncle Sam, channeling the timeless and immortal wisdom of Eddie Murphy...

"It's my house, and if you don't like it, get the f**k out" :sidestep:

'Nuff said

While I enjoy the Eddie Murphy reference (love the "Delirious" recording), let's bear something in mind here:

"Uncle Sam" is our employee, as it were. So he's in "our" house - and if we "don't like" what he's doing, we "fire" said employee, or those we "hire" to do his work. Isn't voting great?

In a representative government, there is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning those we elect to represent us. Isn't accountability great?

regards,
jazz

 

[Serpwidgets]

In a representative government, there is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning those we elect to represent us. Isn't accountability great?

I have to second that, and add the question of whether anyone who uses the "this is America and if you don't like it you can giiiiit out!" line, if they would apply the same thought to the people who abolished slavery, enacted women's suffrage, ended prohibition, ended segregation, or had anything to do with the civil rights movement.

Oh, and "gooney goo-goo."

 

[jazzgeek]

I have to second that, and add the question of whether anyone who uses the "this is America and if you don't like it you can giiiiit out!" line, if they would apply the same thought to the people who abolished slavery, enacted women's suffrage, ended prohibition, ended segregation, or had anything to do with the civil rights movement.

Excellent point.

Oh, and "gooney goo-goo."

There ya have it, folks. Incontrovertible proof that Mr. Pritzel is Caucasian.:crazy02:

regards,
jazz

:flames: <--------- "Now that's a fire!!!"

 

[Duff]

While I enjoy the Eddie Murphy reference (love the "Delirious" recording), let's bear something in mind here:

"Uncle Sam" is our employee, as it were. So he's in "our" house - and if we "don't like" what he's doing, we "fire" said employee, or those we "hire" to do his work. Isn't voting great?

In a representative government, there is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning those we elect to represent us. Isn't accountability great?

regards,
jazz

Wasn't trying to say no one has a right to question or voice their opinion, was more just trying to lighten the mood a bit. That and there are some types that will always complain no matter what, but if they really are so against the American system/way of life, then why are you still living here? Anyway, if I was really trying to be totally serious, I wouldn't have quoted Eddie Murphy :crazy02:

 

[Drizzt80]

To imply that I am a mindless idiot who is spoonfed propraganda only makes yourself look foolish, at least to anyone who knows me and knows that I do not blindly follow the advice of anyone.

Everything you've repeated sounds like a Michael Moore film . . . I will stand as a fool then if that's what it takes.

But I present as 'evidence':

Personally, I think Bush was hoping we'd get attacked (and turning a blind eye, at least to a certain extent), so he'd have an excuse to go to war with Iraq and invade the country, as he and Cheney had been talking about since he took over as President. Yes, I really do believe that, in case there is any question.

Can you say conspiracy theorist?

The Monica fiasco is one good piece of evidence that many Americans ARE stupid. In any other civilized country, something so innane would have not received SO much attention. Way to go, Senators, Congressmen, Ken Starr, etc. Do ya'll feel better now that you can sit back and claim it was Clinton's fault that 9-11 happened, even though you had your heads up your butts, worrying about something SO stupid for SO long, instead of doing what the people elected you for?

CAV already adressed this, but apparently you didn't read it . . . you response was really lacking and included a double negative that I"m not sure you intended as it didn't support what I thought you were trying to say . . . Clinton got caught LYING . . . pretty simple, unless lying is okay . . . sometimes.

Don't forget about the intelligence report warning Bin Laden was planning to use aircraft to attack. Bush picked people who would be yes-men (and yes-women in C. Rice's case), and although somewhat qualified, most of them weren't the BEST people he could have picked, if he hadn't been going for demographics.

Did they give a date and time, because if they did that would've been cool!

I think if Clinton had been president, the cruise missiles would have been flying as SOON as the Afghanistan link was discovered, and Bin Laden would have been dead long ago.

Would that (possibly) mean SOB have gone over there himself and tracked him down? Clinton must be a way more betterest military mind to be able to do that since our Marines haven't been able to do anything . . . oh wait, again I have forgotten that Clinton didn't serve . . . in the military anyway (he did serve a mean cigar from what I understand).

You don't have to tell me you aren't an economist (I can tell.)

What are you telling me here that the economy CAN be turned on and off like a light switch!? :crazy02: Yes! All I have to do now is find the light switch.

D80

 

[CAV]

Yes, Yes, Yes... He didn't tell the Paul Jones legal team that he and Monica had 'not had sex.' How absurd (and disgraceful/irresponsible) that the President's time was ever wasted over something like this. I know many of you made up your minds that he was 'the evil Slick Willy' way back when he first got elected, and you don't want anybody to confuse you with the facts.

Paul Jones or Paula Jones??? You really don’t have a clue what you’re talking about do you Larry?

Since your knowledge of actual events is limited at best, I'll gladly fill you in on the historical facts instead of the myths you seem to base your argument upon. For the record:

On January 17, 1998 President Clinton was deposed in response to aligations made in the case of Clinton v. Jones. For your enlightenment Larry, a deposition is a legally binding statement of fact in which the witness is placed under a sworn oath to tell the truth. All questions and answers are recorded and at trial, the deposition of a person may be used as evidence. As a side note, Judge Susan Webber Wright, Arkansas East District Court, ruled on April 12, 1999 that President Clinton had committed perjury in the Paula Jones civil lawsuit.

By perjuring himself during the deposition, William Jefferson Clinton broke the law, therefore violated his oath of office. He was impeached under that constitution and it is now part of American history. You can deny these facts until the end of time but it does not change what actually happened.

 

[wikkedkornman]

I can read, and you clearly stated:
"that's why you don't see me calling people that don't agree with me idiots and such."
You clearly did call Joe names regardless of the fact that it was afterwards or before hand. Or are you saying that it's okay to retaliate . . .?

"Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, then
beat you on experience!" :crazy02:

I have lost . . .
D80

usually i wouldn't resort to name calling, but i figured this one time what was good for the goose is good for the gander.

i don't need to explain myself to you though, you're nothing to me.

 

[wikkedkornman]

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=174663&postcount=11

what's your point? i didn't call him a name. unless you consider DUDE as name calling. me telling hediki to shut up is nothing. practically everyone here has wanted to say it at one time or another. i just actually had the guts to say it. rude? yes. will i apologize? don't hold your breath.

 

[Drizzt80]

usually i wouldn't resort to name calling, but i figured this one time what was good for the goose is good for the gander.

i don't need to explain myself to you though, you're nothing to me.

So basically you are saying it is okay to retaliate . . . this one time . . . yet (since this thread was started out in reference to Hiroshima et.al) it's bad to bomb other countries that attack you first. In its simplest form it's a retaliation whether it's name calling or killing 2,500+ people on 9/11.

You haven't explained yourself to me at all actually, and 'you're nothing to me' really shows your maturity. Thanks for playing.

D80

 

[curiousL]

please just a warning...if anyone here comes to our tables at Daytona, dont mention being in favor of Bush around my sister. talk about WWIII. LOL

she gets evil at the site of him. i tend to not even start conversations about it around her and i see eye to eye with her. i am not a big fan of Bush at ALL, but, i back my country 1 million percent on whatever it is we need to do to remain as great a country as we are. i just dont really agree with how we intend to go about keeping it that way.

this is one subject that can go on and on for days on end, especially with all the conflicting views we have on certain subjects pertaining to how to handle certain situations. LOL.

good luck to all...now lets get back to the battle! LOL

My boyfriend and I will be in Daytona and to be quite honest after reading this thread I only want to talk snakes while I'm there. If people are going to get in a political "battle" so to say for what they believe in and what their opinions are then that's ok, more power to them. I know what I believe in and if there are those who don't agree then that is what being an american is all about, there is no need for name calling or bashing no matter what the arguement is, just remember yes free speech is wonderful and we have that right, but also remember that as a country we do pride ourselves (most of us) in the fact that we care about humanity and part of what goes with that is being kind to others...now that I sound like my father, but anyway I hope you all see what I am trying to say, but there are lots of things for us to remember today, whether it be what this thread was originally started about or being Good Friday to those who recognize this day, maybe not for some with certain religions or beliefs, but remember to have pride in yourselves to know that what you believe in personally and what you are thankful for everyday is your opinion and choice. Take care!

 

[curiousL]

Oops! Sorry!

Okay I goofed! Look how old this old! Sorry! Silly me, I guess I should stop living in 2005 and move on! But anyway what I said still goes!!! Learned my lesson, laugh all you want at my expense, it is pretty funny!!!