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[marinneli]

I read all this and a couple of questions arised...

If the Tessera is proven to be dominant (as it no doubt is) making it impossible for a snake to be het. Tessera HOW was it able to just pop up from Okeetee x Stripe pairing in the first place? Of course there's always the first time for a mutation to show up, but I'm still wondering whether a mutation would pop up from some "normal" parents and then suddenly be dominant from that point on.

Don also wrote that there has been enough breedings to say there is some relationship between Tessera and the recessive stripe/motley mutation. Well if the first Tesseras come from Striped backgrounds I wouldn't be too surprised to get Stripeds and Motley-Stripeds from breeding "Tessera het. Stripe" to a regular Stripe, Motley or het. for either one. What comes to the similarity in the looks of motley-stripe offspring from Tessera x Normal het. Stripe pairing...well are they Motley-Stripes or Tessera Motley-Stripes?

AND what has already been discussed about, I too would like to know if it is possible to cross breed a corn with situla and what would the result be in F1 and if it's possible to produce even F2....etc...

 

[Ssthisto]

If the Tessera is proven to be dominant (as it no doubt is) making it impossible for a snake to be het. Tessera HOW was it able to just pop up from Okeetee x Stripe pairing in the first place? Of course there's always the first time for a mutation to show up, but I'm still wondering whether a mutation would pop up from some "normal" parents and then suddenly be dominant from that point on

It's as likely as any OTHER mutation and type of heritability popping up. Sure, it's unusual for a trait to mutate in a captive population, but it's not impossible.

But I do have to say that it's amazing how much like Leopard-Rat Stripe the Tessera morph looks... I'd always thought that Tessera also looked a bit like the dominant Stripe trait in Cali Kings, too. Not saying it IS either of those things (it could just be that "a dominant stripe mutant in colubrids" tends to look like those) but the resemblance is interesting.

And I owned a Japanese Ratsnake X Corn (and one of his siblings proved to be fertile, producing 75/25 Corn/Japanese Rat offspring) ... so it's not totally unprecedented that New World and Old World ratsnakes can be bred together.

 

[marinneli]

And I owned a Japanese Ratsnake X Corn (and one of his siblings proved to be fertile, producing 75/25 Corn/Japanese Rat offspring) ... so it's not totally unprecedented that New World and Old World ratsnakes can be bred together.

I believe these crosses between two different snake species (not referring only to the new world rat - old world rat) can be done and may happen even in the nature. New species are born every now and then - without people knowing it - and maybe some of them are results of two or more species cross breeding.

Hybridization (is that even a word?) happens among several animals in the nature. At least I know for a fact that here in Finland several fish species have successfully crossbred in nature.

 

[abell82]

I have always stated that I thought they were hybrids.When I stated they were hybrids, I was flamed for it. BUT, I still do.

When the now called "tesseras" first appeared, they were for sale on the online classified site.
The truth finally comes out.
But there is more to the story....
There was a thread on here yes this VERY site where KJ discussed purchasing them and starting a new morph. The ORIGINAL vendor was and is known to dabble in hybrids, and was in fact selling hybrids at the same time these were advertised. I am surprised others do not remember this, but anyway...

Why if they were bought off KS is the story that they were bought at a show? That's disinformation, plain and simple.

If the story about where they were bought is not true, then why shouldn't they be suspect?
Especially if they were bought from someone that is known to deal in hybrids.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Why if they were bought off KS is the story that they were bought at a show? That's disinformation, plain and simple.

Did you purchase them? How do you know the vendor didn't bring them to a show and sell them there? Also, what proof do you have that they're a hybrid? You know what they say when you assume.

 

[KJUN]

LOL. You got flammed for calling names and throwing out insults - not for doubting our claims.

Who said they were picked up at a show. I just looked in my original post, and I said, "I was lucky enough to come across a couple of odd looking 'striped' cornsnakes for sale a few years ago." I don't see the words expo OR show in the statement. It is possible for anyone to mistakenly use the wrong word somewhere - especially when you have as many snakes as I've got from as many sources, but I don't think I have. I came across them. We bought them. End of story. Where or how doesn't change the snakes.

OR, can you point out where I spoke in error so I can correct it? The above is all I remember saying.
KJ

 

[abell82]

So then, you don't deny that you bought them from someone that is known for selling hybrids?

 

[KJUN]

I will answer that by saying, "Not that am am or was aware." I never claimed to know the guy intimately, though, as was evident in my original post......and the background checked out enough on these animals to me. Besides, I'm not sure it would have mattered since I had/have no reason to distrust him whether he had hybrids or not. Are you saying that anyone that has a hybrid - from a creamsicle on up - is unavoidably a liar and untrustworthy?

 

[abell82]

Sure, my apologies for saying that you got the original from a show. I must have misunderstood.

No, I am not saying that having a creamsicle or even breeding a creamsicle makes someone untrustworthy. I am saying that someone that HAS and BREEDS, a hybrid and then sells it as a pure cornsnake is untrustworthy. When you bought the founding stock for your new line, there was great debate as to the trustworthiness of the seller, that you purchased them from. (true or false?)
You knew that then, and I believe you still know that. Further, I believe that your zest to find and create a new morph for fame fortune or whatever is clouding your judgment.

 

[KJUN]

Completely False. I searched the BOI back then and didn't have a word about him. This isn't suspicious on my part, so don't claim I had doubts even back then - I search the BOI before I buy from anyone I don't know. Some exceptions for show purchases, but I almost never buy at a show from someone I don't already know. Matter of fact, I had never even heard about the guy's existence until I had purchased from him. The only bad words I've read are the ones where I wrote in the past that he can't sex hatchlings correctly and babies weren't up to par.

Get real on my motives. If I was that zealous, would I have basically given one to one of the biggest cornsnake breeders out there? That was before I knew what it was, of course, but we gave one to another major breeder even after knowing what it was. Come on, that's the worst thing I could have done because I can't compete with their advertising engine. Think it through. Plus, I've already started a couple of new morphs. One more is, well, just another one. I hate to tell you, but it doesn't mean that much to me. Let's turn it around. Maybe your attempt to throw mud is just because you are jealous that you haven't started anything new, eh? Along those lines, you remain anonymous here. How do we even know you aren't trying to spread rumors - knowing they are false - because of ulterior motives of your own? Maybe you are mad because you wanted to buy these, I beat you to them, and you hold a grudge. Your actions are hard to take at face value, so I'm wondering what IS going on in your mind.

If we had anything to hide, I wouldn't have put some - including sibling normals - on display for critique at two major national expos, would I? Granted, you had to ask to see it in Daytona last year, but we told everyone here to come by and ask if they wanted to see it. They'll be on display at Daytona this year - with sibling normals - again.

 

[Drizzt80]

I am saying that someone that HAS and BREEDS, a hybrid and then sells it as a pure cornsnake is untrustworthy. When you bought the founding stock for your new line, there was great debate as to the trustworthiness of the seller, that you purchased them from. (true or false?)
You knew that then, and I believe you still know that. Further, I believe that your zest to find and create a new morph for fame fortune or whatever is clouding your judgment.

Are we discussing Tessera or Ultra . . . :sidestep:

You want to talk about discrediting trustworthiness of the seller, let's throw Lava into the fire as being hybrid. :shrugs:

D80

 

[diamondlil]

Sure, my apologies for saying that you got the original from a show. I must have misunderstood.

No, I am not saying that having a creamsicle or even breeding a creamsicle makes someone untrustworthy. I am saying that someone that HAS and BREEDS, a hybrid and then sells it as a pure cornsnake is untrustworthy. When you bought the founding stock for your new line, there was great debate as to the trustworthiness of the seller, that you purchased them from. (true or false?)
You knew that then, and I believe you still know that. Further, I believe that your zest to find and create a new morph for fame fortune or whatever is clouding your judgment.

Surely all you have to do to test your hybrid theory is buy examples of the suspected no-corn progenitor, start breeding trials and wait for results?
(No offense at all meant to KJUN, but wouldn't Mr Soderburg have an awful lot to lose if he was involved in producing dodgy corns and have made as sure as he could be that they were the real deal?)

 

[KJUN]

Are we discussing Tessera or Ultra . . . :sidestep:

You want to talk about discrediting trustworthiness of the seller, let's throw Lava into the fire as being hybrid. :shrugs:

D80

Caramels look like yellow rats, and Rich did get it from Florida. Must be hybrids.
Bloods look like Everglades rats, and they weren't collected too far from those, either...just a days drive...lol. Can't be pure. The head pattern clinches it. ..and the messed up ventrals in the F1s......
Golden Emoryi look like albino yellow rats = hybrids.
Stripe corns are a cross between corns and any of the eastern rats, right?
Butters are just creamsicles.
Ashy's are really Emory ratsnakes and nothing else. Pure, but not cornsnakes at all.
Albino Cal-Kings are all hybrids since the mutation is allelic with cornsnake albinism.
Anerythristic corns - both lines of them - are just black rat hybrids.
Lavenders are the results of reproduction with galvanized metal piping.

Yep, the new rule is anything among various species that resembles on another phenotypically MUST be a hybrid from now on. Things that look alike are always hybrids. LOL. I'm joking, but realize that when stripes were produced in Europe, they WERE accused of being hybrids..and there was a little support to that "silly" claim. We know there are still people today that doubt "bloodred" is all cornsnake in its origin. Like Rich said, everything new is called a hybrid. It's the PC thing to do, and that is why I'm not defending THAT strenuously against the honest, unbiased, accusations. I don't think it matters since the snakes speak for themselves. Each person can hear what they think they are saying. I only posted when I was called a liar personally.

On the lavas, Joe's story of the origin changed over time, so those HAVE to be hybrids, too. No way around it. Sorry to Jeff.....lol. Sunkissed are just plain mean. Chainsaw hybrids.

 

[abell82]

Completely False. I searched the BOI back then and didn't have a word about him. This isn't suspicious on my part, so don't claim I had doubts even back then - I search the BOI before I buy from anyone I don't know. Some exceptions for show purchases, but I almost never buy at a show from someone I don't already know. Matter of fact, I had never even heard about the guy's existence until I had purchased from him. The only bad words I've read are the ones where I wrote in the past that he can't sex hatchlings correctly and babies weren't up to par.

Get real on my motives. If I was that zealous, would I have basically given one to one of the biggest cornsnake breeders out there? That was before I knew what it was, of course, but we gave one to another major breeder even after knowing what it was. Come on, that's the worst thing I could have done because I can't compete with their advertising engine. Think it through. Plus, I've already started a couple of new morphs. One more is, well, just another one. I hate to tell you, but it doesn't mean that much to me. Let's turn it around. Maybe your attempt to throw mud is just because you are jealous that you haven't started anything new, eh? Along those lines, you remain anonymous here. How do we even know you aren't trying to spread rumors - knowing they are false - because of ulterior motives of your own? Maybe you are mad because you wanted to buy these, I beat you to them, and you hold a grudge. Your actions are hard to take at face value, so I'm wondering what IS going on in your mind.

If we had anything to hide, I wouldn't have put some - including sibling normals - on display for critique at two major national expos, would I? Granted, you had to ask to see it in Daytona last year, but we told everyone here to come by and ask if they wanted to see it. They'll be on display at Daytona this year - with sibling normals - again.

**SIGH**
You always try to turn things around, and get hostile.

However the fact remains...The seller was selling other snakes as corns, that were hybrids, this was being discussed, at the time. (The seller even came out and admitted this later on.)
You knew the founding stock of this new line were also being questioned as to their purity. YOU bought them and declared them pure. Knowing that their ancestry was being debated. (It was being debated then, and you act surprised that it is being debated now!)
Many people discussed it on here at the time. You knew it was being debated. You chose to go ahead and do it.
As far as the boi is concerned that says little to nothing to me about an animals genetics. All it tells me is that he shipped an animal, when an animal was purchased. If that is the extent of your "background check" for the original seller then you didn't even really try, as far as I am concerned.

Further I believe that the genetics of this new morph can, and should be debated, until someone tries the cross, and proves it can't be done beyond a shadow of a doubt. The problem being it may not be a simple 1:1 cross. It could have been a combination of 3 or 4 species, since the corns he was selling were not pure corns to begin with.

If you would like to discuss it further, feel free to PM me.
Nuff said.

 

[KJUN]

**SIGH**
You always try to turn things around, and get hostile.

However the fact remains...The seller was selling other snakes as corns, that were hybrids, this was being discussed, at the time. (The seller even came out and admitted this later on.)
You knew the founding stock of this new line were also being questioned as to their purity. YOU bought them and declared them pure. Knowing that their ancestry was being debated. (It was being debated then, and you act surprised that it is being debated now!)
Many people discussed it on here at the time. You knew it was being debated. You chose to go ahead and do it.
As far as the boi is concerned that says little to nothing to me about an animals genetics. All it tells me is that he shipped an animal, when an animal was purchased. If that is the extent of your "background check" for the original seller then you didn't even really try, as far as I am concerned.

Further I believe that the genetics of this new morph can, and should be debated, until someone tries the cross, and proves it can't be done beyond a shadow of a doubt. The problem being it may not be a simple 1:1 cross. It could have been a combination of 3 or 4 species, since the corns he was selling were not pure corns to begin with.

If you would like to discuss it further, feel free to PM me.
Nuff said.

You made that whole thing up, and we all know it. These were never even mentioned on the board until I started talking about them. I've only ever seen the original owner list 2 or 3 ads, and all of those were pure corns. Discussed WHERE? Show a link. Heck, what were they called by those other people before I named them? I know we thought they were just stripes from Okeetees (where original stripes came from, anyway), so we hadn't named them. Give us a name so we can search for this debate you claim exists! Either you are just making stuff up completely (like me saying I got them at a show) or you have them confused with something else. NOTHING in the abovepost by you is in the least bit true. I really have no clue where you are getting this or why you are making it up. Confusion with another morph, maybe?

Heck, I had them for almost 2 years before I knew they were anything special and even posted an image of them here....lol. The seller wasn't even advertising them HERE.

You always try to turn things around, and get hostile.

You always call me a liar, make wild accusations without a shred of proof, and then run away to hide for weeks. I believe after such treatment from you over and over again that I'm remaining relatively nice - not hostile.

Question the morph - I don't care. Just show a marker or evidence. Give us a concrete reason that we can all see with our eyes. Don't make up a story that has nothing to do with reality and expect me to swallow it or let you feed it to others. What you've said about this morph being discussed BEFORE we got it is completely bull, and I'm sure everyone knows it since nobody will be able to find these things discussed here before we got them. If they can, then I never saw it nor was I involved in it...and you seem to be the ONLY one that can remember it. False memory or false story - I don't care. We all know those previous discussions do not exist.

 

[wade]

One day someone will go to the trouble and expense of doing some DNA analysis on our corns and may find some real surprises with several of the morphs. It has become common place in the race horse industry. Of course they are dealing with much more money and higher stakes than we are. Until some real definitive tests are done, it will be up for debate. There is nothing that abell or KJ can say at this point that will prove anything. The particular morph in question is a beautiful snake and that is a fact.

We all get a little hung up on this hybrid issue. I used to have creamsicles and really liked them. They too are beautiful snakes. For as long as people have been trying to create new morphs, I’d be really surprised if there were very many “pure” corns left in the pet trade. For that matter, who is to say that the WC snakes don’t have a little strange blood in their history.

 

[mike17l]

Hey abell, what is your name? Your full name. I do not know if you have ever identified yourself on this forum.

Thanks

 

[KJUN]

One day someone will go to the trouble and expense of doing some DNA analysis on our corns and may find some real surprises with several of the morphs. It has become common place in the race horse industry. Of course they are dealing with much more money and higher stakes than we are. Until some real definitive tests are done, it will be up for debate. There is nothing that abell or KJ can say at this point that will prove anything. The particular morph in question is a beautiful snake and that is a fact.

We all get a little hung up on this hybrid issue. I used to have creamsicles and really liked them. They too are beautiful snakes. For as long as people have been trying to create new morphs, I’d be really surprised if there were very many “pure” corns left in the pet trade. For that matter, who is to say that the WC snakes don’t have a little strange blood in their history.

Thanks, Wade. I'm really not upset that s/he questions their purity. Anyone can do that, and I respect their opinion if they give me a reason other than, "because I said so." What I'm irate by is the completely made up story s/he has concocted about this morph's origin and calling me a liar when I said, "I've never heard these discussed before I bought them." It seems some of you long time regulars would have brought up the old posts a long time ago if they actually existed about this morph BEFORE I bought them.....lol.

One thing about hybrids (and I dislike them more than anyone) is that if ultras ARE hybrids, then there are no more pure corns being bred - practically speaking - since the albinos produced lack the tattletale markers hybrids should have...and are sold as regular albinos. If Tessera ARE hybrids (which I don't believe at all to be the case), then we'll now see with all morphs what ultra did to albinos and kin. All of the Tessera siblings have been sold off as normals (because that's all they are) to wholesalers to be spread out across the country, etc. If those are and lack markers, then they are everywhere anyway. Even from someone that dislikes hybrids, I have to say, "Isn't it too late with corns? Get over it or get out of corns completely." That's another thread, though.

Anyway, I can't argue that they could be hybrids - ANY cornsnake could be a hybrid. I'm convinced they are as pure as can be with CB morphs in our hobby, but the buck stops with the buyer making their own decision. I DO know that story s/he just created is completely false, though, since these obviously weren't discussed anywhere any of us could see it - and the lack of evidence of such posts is proof enough, I think.

KJ

 

[wade]

Mike, I think you are one of very few who has listed is full name.

 

[mike17l]

Mike, I think you are one of very few who has listed is full name.

It is not required on this forum, but when someone consistently makes false claims for no apparent reason, it would be nice to know who it is. Know what I mean?