????????????????????????????????

[mike17l]

Anybody else find it odd that this person rarely posts, but when he/she does, it seems to almost always be an attack and thus whenever this person makes false claims and is confronted with information, this is a typical response.

If you would like to discuss it further, feel free to PM me.
Nuff said.

 

[tom e]

The oddest thing to me is that Abel keeps insinuating dishonesty here or that KJ is changing what he said before on these boards.. Jeez Abel if that's the case link it.

I have a lot more I'd like to say, but I'd just be saying what Wade said, and probably not as well.

 

[ForkedTung]

I like glazed donuts.

 

[tom e]

Another vote for Glazed donuts.

 

[KJUN]

"I like grapes!"

Anyone recognize what movie that comes from? I used that while teaching whenever a student would try to get the topic WAY off course. I'd just look and them and say, "And I like grapes. Anything else we need to talk about before we get back to the lecture?"

 

[El Jefe]

You want to talk about discrediting trustworthiness of the seller, let's throw Lava into the fire as being hybrid. :shrugs:
D80

Oh no you don't......

On the lavas, Joe's story of the origin changed over time, so those HAVE to be hybrids, too. No way around it. Sorry to Jeff.....lol.

Say it ain't so. I guess that would explain why I've getting interesting results from my lava projects...some of them have diamond patterns and rattles on the end. Very interesting. :sidestep:

 

[abell82]

Anybody else find it odd that this person rarely posts, but when he/she does, it seems to almost always be an attack and thus whenever this person makes false claims and is confronted with information, this is a typical response.

First, I don't spend everywaking moment on here.
SECOND
Why would I want to continue bickering here and get the th=read locked, or deleted??
What would be the harm in continuing in private?
If I am wrong, my apologies to KJUN. Maybe i am thinking of something else.
I remember a similar snake being sold on KS, by Great Valley Serpentarium.
They were also selling Sunburst(?) corns, which they later disclosed were corn x milks. I also remember there being a big discussion on here about them. Maybe these are not from the same lineage ? Who knows?

However...mike171 butt the hell out. What makes this any of your business? You are like a little brother always trying to butt in. Does Kjun really need your help? I think he is a big guy, and can probably take care of himself, just fine.

 

[marinneli]

One day someone will go to the trouble and expense of doing some DNA analysis on our corns and may find some real surprises with several of the morphs. It has become common place in the race horse industry. Of course they are dealing with much more money and higher stakes than we are. Until some real definitive tests are done, it will be up for debate. There is nothing that abell or KJ can say at this point that will prove anything. The particular morph in question is a beautiful snake and that is a fact.

We all get a little hung up on this hybrid issue. I used to have creamsicles and really liked them. They too are beautiful snakes. For as long as people have been trying to create new morphs, I’d be really surprised if there were very many “pure” corns left in the pet trade. For that matter, who is to say that the WC snakes don’t have a little strange blood in their history.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Exactly. You say it's right? Prove it. You say it's wrong? Prove it.
So far we all just have our own suspicions, opinions and arguments, but none of us KNOW FOR SURE.

 

[mike17l]

First, I don't spend everywaking moment on here.
SECOND
Why would I want to continue bickering here and get the th=read locked, or deleted??
What would be the harm in continuing in private?
If I am wrong, my apologies to KJUN. Maybe i am thinking of something else.
I remember a similar snake being sold on KS, by Great Valley Serpentarium.
They were also selling Sunburst(?) corns, which they later disclosed were corn x milks. I also remember there being a big discussion on here about them. Maybe these are not from the same lineage ? Who knows?

However...mike171 butt the hell out. What makes this any of your business? You are like a little brother always trying to butt in. Does Kjun really need your help? I think he is a big guy, and can probably take care of himself, just fine.

Comments like yours at the end will warrant deletions/closures, but actual discussion never does.

The harm of discussing an issue like this in private, is that you have made false accusations in public, thus your accusations should be discussed in PUBLIC, where you made them and where you can attempt to defend them.

On another note, the validity of tesseras does affect me.

Again, so why is it that seemingly the only times that you show up on here are to attack someone/something, then when you are confronted, you go into recluse mode, say that you need to be PMed to discuss it further and disapear for a few months. If you like I can actually find past threads where you have done this before. Can you find any past threads anywhere where tesseras have been discussed before 2008?

 

[Rich Z]

First, I don't spend everywaking moment on here.
SECOND
Why would I want to continue bickering here and get the th=read locked, or deleted??
What would be the harm in continuing in private?
If I am wrong, my apologies to KJUN. Maybe i am thinking of something else.
I remember a similar snake being sold on KS, by Great Valley Serpentarium.
They were also selling Sunburst(?) corns, which they later disclosed were corn x milks. I also remember there being a big discussion on here about them. Maybe these are not from the same lineage ? Who knows?

However...mike171 butt the hell out. What makes this any of your business? You are like a little brother always trying to butt in. Does Kjun really need your help? I think he is a big guy, and can probably take care of himself, just fine.

That is not likely to happen here. I think you forgot what forum you were on for a moment....

 

[KJUN]

I remember a similar snake being sold on KS, by Great Valley Serpentarium.
They were also selling Sunburst(?) corns, which they later disclosed were corn x milks. I also remember there being a big discussion on here about them. Maybe these are not from the same lineage ? Who knows?

I remember sunbursts (I do not remember what they look like, though, or who had them), but I got this directly from a breeder who, at the time, I can only remember ever seeing post but about 3-4 ads total. If those are what you are thinking about, they are not related to these in the least bit to the best of my knowledge nor did any of the images of the parental stock I was shown indicate anything but normal corns were used. Of course, anyone can be lied to (including me by a breeder - it has happened before), but I have no reason to suspect that was the case then or now. I certainly didn't obtain them from GVS nor did I get any of their stock in a roundabout way knowingly.

If someone has a better memory about the sunbursts or owns any, I'd appreciate seeing an image of one for comparison. I would assume they just looked like other milk/corn hybrids - which are very different in appearances from these.

Unless someone can show a reason to say these might be kin to that line, I just have trouble accepting it as a very reasonable possibility. Too many lies and missing markers would have to wortk together perfectly for that to be the case. Shrug?

Thanks for the name,
KJ

 

[Rich Z]

Definition of "hybrid":

the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, esp. as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics.

Hmm.... oke:

One would have to ask where the line is between "the product of selective breeding" and the above definition....

So we take this a step further and look for the definition of "species":

Biology. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

Anyone see a problem with this picture?

 

[KJUN]

Say it ain't so. I guess that would explain why I've getting interesting results from my lava projects...some of them have diamond patterns and rattles on the end. Very interesting. :sidestep:

Since corns are subterranean much of the time, they would have been called magmas if pure. Being called lavas prove they are hybrids with a purely basking snake that stays above the surface. I think the leading possibility is a cornsnake X Chrysopelea hybrid.

 

[El Jefe]

Anyone see a problem with this picture?

You bet! And my graduate committee blasted me over this for about half an hour during my oral exams...not sure we ever did come to a conclusion.

 

[KJUN]

You bet! And my graduate committee blasted me over this for about half an hour during my oral exams...not sure we ever did come to a conclusion.

My professor and I definitely disagreed on the species concept we use....mainly because I tell him that his preferred concept is bogus, unable to be substantiated, and has no meaning in the real world. It makes for a fun conversation......lol. Obviously, he believes in the evolutionary species concept, but that should be obvious when I said it was bogus.....lol.

 

[abell82]

The most beautiful snake that I ever laid eyes on was an 8 way rat snake cross.
The seller would not say exactly what they were only that they were an 8 way cross.

 

[KJUN]

The most beautiful snake that I ever laid eyes on was an 8 way rat snake cross.
The seller would not say exactly what they were only that they were an 8 way cross.

The original "turbo" corn - Northern pinesnake x cornsnake - that I saw was probably the most beautiful hybrid I ever say. No mistaking it for a hybrid, though, since it looked like a stubby headed CLEAN anerythristic cornsnake...but it looked like it felt like 80 grit sand paper....lol.

KJ

 

[RobbiesCornField]

The most beautiful snake that I ever laid eyes on was an 8 way rat snake cross.
The seller would not say exactly what they were only that they were an 8 way cross.

And that proves.......................................... what?

 

[Drewby07]

the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, esp. as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics.

Awww crud....I guess all my normal x lavender cross babies are hybrids now!

 

[Hypancistrus]

Forgive me for intruding... I have only the barest minimum of experience with regards to genetics of ANYTHING...

Would the simplest recourse, to set the matter straight, be to have genetic/DNA tests run on a pure bred corn, a pure bred leopard rat from Europe, and a tessera?? If the tessera's are true corns (and I think that while the pattern is exceptionally similar, the head shape and other physical attributes seem to indicate that they are North American corns) then a DNA test using electrophoresis SHOULD show that clearly... right?

Just wondering if that may be the best way to shoot down the naysayers without the he said, she said.

Worth, at best, $.02.