complicate genetic combination

[wade]

I can always count on you babe. :sidestep:

 

[tyflier]

Agreed. That's why I specified "per genetic definition."

And ironically enough, since genetic albinism was first discovered and named in mammals, and it IS the lack or disruption of melanin production...amelanism and albinism would be, genetically, the same thing. Which is, if you re-read my post, precisely what I stated earlier. The only reason words like "amel", "anery" and all these other morph names even exist is because snakes have many skin pigments and mammals have ONLY melanin. When albinism was first discovered and proven a recessive genetic trait, they only needed one word because they were only dealing with one skin pigmentation.

So back to my original statement...why would you care to change Hybino?

As for the CMG not being a "bible"...nobody ever said it was. However, it IS the ONLY resource available that is regularly updated and published every year, and at least makes an effort to get the opinions, and input, of the major "players" in the cornsnake breeding game. The CMG doesn't dictate anything to the community...it gathers input from the community and publishes a consensus...or at least as much of a consensus is possible with cornsnake keepers.

Whether you like or not...it is a published resource that is incredibly valuable to the cornsnake hobby. Whether you agree with the definitions found within or not doesn't change the accuracy one bit. If you have 20 people looking at a color and 19 say it's red and 1 says it's blue, guess who is wrong...

 

[Drizzt80]

it gathers input from the community and publishes a consensus.

Whether you like or not...it is a published resource that is incredibly valuable to the cornsnake hobby. Whether you agree with the definitions found within or not doesn't change the accuracy one bit.

No, it doesn't. The author of the cmg picks and chooses what he wants to go into his book. I've been told that on more than one occasion, by more than one person, about more than one aspect of the booklet itself. Until it's actually "published" and reviewed by a reputable scientific agency, it's just what it's called . . . an (opinionated) guide.

PS. I apologize if my opinionated fact took this thread further off topic.

If you have 20 people looking at a color and 19 say it's red and 1 says it's blue, guess who is wrong...

I'd say the 19 color blind people are wrong. :shrugs:

D80

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

And ironically enough, since genetic albinism was first discovered and named in mammals, and it IS the lack or disruption of melanin production...amelanism and albinism would be, genetically, the same thing.

Yes, in mammals. Are we talking about mammals? I wasn't. :shrugs:

The only reason words like "amel", "anery" and all these other morph names even exist is because snakes have many skin pigments and mammals have ONLY melanin. When albinism was first discovered and proven a recessive genetic trait, they only needed one word because they were only dealing with one skin pigmentation.

Exactly! We have names for the different pigment deficiencies in cornsnakes because we need to differentiate between them. So again, please explain why Hybino is being used for Hypoamel all of a sudden.

So back to my original statement...why would you care to change Hybino?

Hybino is apparently replacing Hypoamel in some circles, not the other way around, my dear. This is why I asked why all of a sudden it's been popping up on the forum. It was never called Hybino before on this forum, which is why I questioned where it came from.

Whether you agree with the definitions found within or not doesn't change the accuracy one bit.

Accuracy? An opinion based guide is 100% accurate and without fault?
It shouldn't be questioned because why?

For poops and giggles, I looked at my 2006 & 2007 CMG's (don't have the 2008)...Neither of them mention Hybino, so what does that tell you?

I will say that it is entirely possible that I got the whole Hypoamel thing from Europeans typing the words out like that. I ran a search and noticed that everyone else was just using Hypo Amel as opposed to combining into one word.

 

[Susan]

For poops and giggles, I looked at my 2006 & 2007 CMG's (don't have the 2008)...Neither of them mention Hybino, so what does that tell you?

For more poops and giggles, I checked the 2008 CMG and the only place "hygino" was mentioned is in Appendix E - Morph Name Cross-Reference and not in the actual text under the combination of amel + hypo.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

For more poops and giggles, I checked the 2008 CMG and the only place "hygino" was mentioned is in Appendix E - Morph Name Cross-Reference and not in the actual text under the combination of amel + hypo.

Ah-hah! Well there we go then! It's in the CMG only as a cross-reference, sort of like how some people still use "black albino" for Anery.

 

[Drizzt80]

"black albino" for Anery.

Which is accurate . . . :sidestep:

:grin01:
D80

(It's black, and it's an albino - missing red pigmentation.)

 

[RobbiesCornField]

I don't mean to interrupt, but I just have to throw my 2 cents in.
I know I haven't been around hear long, but I've never heard of Hypoamel before, but Hybino I have heard of. Now this may be because I've been hanging around with boid keepers a lot longer than corn snake specific people. And I do have to agree: if every other snake hypo+amel morph is being called Hybino, why not corn snakes? What's so exceptionally special about a corn snake that it deserves it's own morph name for something that's already been named in other snake groups?

 

[RobbiesCornField]

^just an addition:
I'm so gonna get it for that last line...

 

[wade]

if every other snake hypo+amel morph is being called Hybino, why not corn snakes? What's so exceptionally special about a corn snake that it deserves it's own morph name for something that's already been named in other snake groups?

That is a really good question Robbie. But you have missed the main point of the whole discussion. TME likes to knit pick and argue about meaningless things.

 

[tyflier]

Yes, in mammals. Are we talking about mammals? I wasn't.

No. We were talking about the genetic definition of albinism, which was originally defined as a disruption in the production of melanin, not a disruption in the production of any other pigment...melanin. Which means amelanistic and albino were origianlly defined identically.

And yes...the CMG gets input from the breeders. That is why their names are mentioned and they are thanked for their input. Of course it is a guide based on opinion. EVERYTHING about this hobby is an opinion. Kathy's book is 100% opinion as well. Don't hear a whole lot of complaining about her book. Of course the author writes what he wants to write. Kathy and Don S. write what they want to write as well. So do the thousands of people posting on this forum.

And even though it is opinion based...I still haven't heard anyone mention anything that does a better job of defining and publishing the information that is available. Not one word about any other resource besides this forum. This forum is great but it is FAR from the be-all forum in snakes in general and especially far from being the end of the road in cornsnakes. Don't mean to burst anyone's bubble, but there are other places to get the exact same information as can be found here. From people that are **gasp** just as knowledgable about these animals as anyone here. And they have been doing it for just as long. They just don't have a "name" like Rich or Kathy.

I found this amusing:

...It was never called Hybino before on this forum, which is why I questioned where it came from....

So...a researched and annually published book isn't worth anything because the author writes his opinions, but a forum that isn't researched, edited, or anything else is your source? Am I the only one that finds this incredibly ironic?

It's been called "Hybino" in boids and OTHER colubrids for the last 20 years at least. It's called hybino in ratsnakes, milksnakes, kingsnakes, garters, boas, pythons, and elapids. Why are cornsnakes so different? ALL of these other snakes have just as many or more pigment qualities in their skin. And most of them have a variety of pigment deficiencies called "morphs". If "albino" and "hybino" are good enough for every other snake species in the world, and has ALWAYS been good enough for every other snake species in the world...what makes you think anything is "all of a sudden" and why do you insist that cornsnakes be termed differently?

Oh and my opinion is that the word "hypoamel" is about as ridiculous as they come. It looks odd, it is spelled odd, and it certainly is not an easy word to use in verbal conversation. Why even make it one word? Why not simply "Hypo/Amel"? I mean if you want to change a word that has been used for other snakes for many years, at least make the new word easy to use...

 

[Drizzt80]

if every other snake hypo+amel morph is being called Hybino, why not corn snakes? What's so exceptionally special about a corn snake that it deserves it's own morph name for something that's already been named in other snake groups?

My reaction to that would be "Just because everyone else is using the terminology wrong, does that mean we have to as well?!"

Susan has already made it very clear, but I'll elaborate.
Hypo = reduced melanin.
Albino = missing pigment. (PIGMENT NOT Melanin.)

Hybino would therefore be a genetically/scientifically/linquistically accurate (and correct) term to be used for:
Amel+Hypo or Hypomel or """Hybino"""
Anery + Hypo or Ghost or """Hybino"""
Charcoal + Hypo or Phantom or """Hybino"""
Lavender + Hypo or HypoLav or """Hybino"""
Caramel + Hypo or Amber or """Hybino"""
. . . do I need to continue?! :shrugs:

D80

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Which is accurate . . .

Didn't say it wasn't, silly. :nyah: At least when using the term "albino" as meaning "an animal or plant with a marked deficiency in pigmentation."

I know I haven't been around hear long, but I've never heard of Hypoamel before, but Hybino I have heard of. Now this may be because I've been hanging around with boid keepers a lot longer than corn snake specific people. And I do have to agree: if every other snake hypo+amel morph is being called Hybino, why not corn snakes? What's so exceptionally special about a corn snake that it deserves it's own morph name for something that's already been named in other snake groups?

Why should Cornsnakes, who have one of the highest morph count of all reptiles, have to conform to what others have been doing? Boids have a lot of inaccurate, inappropriately used terms thrown about; should Cornsnakes follow suit just because the Boids are doing it?

Boids don't use the term Amel...Though ironically, they do use the term Anery...So, because Boids don't use the term Amel, should we then inaccurately call melanin deficient Cornsnakes Albino?

See my point?
Just because one group is doing something doesn't mean another has to follow suit.

That is a really good question Robbie. But you have missed the main point of the whole discussion. TME likes to knit pick and argue about meaningless things.

You're such a troll Wade. It makes me sad for you.

 

[Drizzt80]

No. We were talking about the genetic definition of albinism, which was originally defined as a disruption in the production of melanin, not a disruption in the production of any other pigment...melanin. Which means amelanistic and albino were origianlly defined identically.

That confusion comes from mammals, as well. Because mammals only have melanin as a skin pigment, albino mammals are the "pink eyed white" we all know and love. But as Brent pointed out...albino is, technically, lacking pigmentation...any pigmentation...

Out of curiousity, which side of the fence are you actually on . . . :shrugs:


D80

 

[wade]

Come one guys, you’re splitting hairs here. We have all seen amels called albinos for years and years as well as red albinos. Anerys have been called black albinos. I don’t think you can extend that to include all morphs. It wouldn’t be anymore correct to call a Ghost or a Charcoal an Anery. They are in fact Anery but that isn’t the total description of the morph.

All morph names came about by what was popular. The original breeder may have assigned a name to a new morph, but it didn’t become “official” until the name was excepted by a popular vote.

 

[tyflier]

Out of curiousity, which side of the fence are you actually on . . . :shrugs:


D80

Two different definitions. One is the original scientific definition, which I only mentioned to TME because of her choice of the words "All of a sudden", and the other is the currently accepted definition as it applies to snakes.

The problem is that albinism was discovered in mammals. You cannot define a disorder that is unknown. At the time, anberythrism and every other pigment deficiency was unknown. So albino was it. Like everything else...as knowledge increased, definitions changed.


TME wrote:

...Why should Cornsnakes, who have one of the highest morph count of all reptiles, have to conform to what others have been doing? Boids have a lot of inaccurate, inappropriately used terms thrown about; should Cornsnakes follow suit just because the Boids are doing it?

Boids don't use the term Amel...Though ironically, they do use the term Anery...So, because Boids don't use the term Amel, should we then inaccurately call melanin deficient Cornsnakes Albino?

See my point?
Just because one group is doing something doesn't mean another has to follow suit....

This is the most laughable defense of the terminology used in corns that I have ever seen. :grin01::grin01:

Really? It's all about being accurate? Than why is it Caramel instead of hyperxanthism? Why is there NO attempt to discover the differences between charcoal(another really technically accurate term) and anery A? Why is there no effort being made to understand, accurately and scientifically, how these deficiencies come to be?

You're nitpicking all of this because of accuracy, yet in cornsnakes we have Cinder, Caramel, Ultra, Lavender, Charcoal, and who knows what else. This terminology is scientificaslly accurate? This terminology is definitive enough that you insist "albino" is inaccurate for amel and "hybino" is a brand new term?

This has gone beyond nitpicking about terminology and trashing the CMG for you, TME. This has gone to the realm of hilarity. I may not be the most knowledgable person out there, but at least I don't pretend to be, either. I may not be the most scientifically accurate individual around, but at least I don't hide behind false accuracies, and pretend to be "better" than anyone else based on absolutely made-up, fantasy science. I mean...if cornsnake morphology is as good as it gets in "scientifically accurate" than the world of scientific study is definitely in for a slow and painful death...

TME wrote:

...You're such a troll Wade. It makes me sad for you....

He may be trolling and getting in a dig or two...but he's right. YOU are the one "nitpicking" the word Hybino. YOU are the one that insists "all of a sudden" albino is no longer an acceptable term for amel. YOU are the one insisting that CS.com is the be-all of information and the CMG is no good because it contains opinions. Bit of the old "pot calling the kettle black" in this instance, Steph...

 

[Drizzt80]

All morph names came about by what was popular. The original breeder may have assigned a name to a new morph, but it didn’t become “official” until the name was excepted by a popular vote.

I agree Wade, BUT the terms albino, anerythristic, amelanistic, et.al. are scientific terms. Scientific terms are not based on popular opinion. They are based on currently recognized fact. Even the ever-so-popular author of the cmg booklet has argued once upon a time (at this very site) that the accuracy of using the English language is extremely important.

So, yes, it may be splitting hairs, but it's an effort to use the terminology as accurately as currently possible. :shrugs:

D80

 

[wade]

I agree Wade, BUT the terms albino, anerythristic, amelanistic, et.al. are scientific terms. D80

I can buy that. I was thinking more about the term Hybino.

 

[tyflier]

I agree Wade, BUT the terms albino, anerythristic, amelanistic, et.al. are scientific terms. Scientific terms are not based on popular opinion. They are based on currently recognized fact. Even the ever-so-popular author of the cmg booklet has argued once upon a time (at this very site) that the accuracy of using the English language is extremely important.

So, yes, it may be splitting hairs, but it's an effort to use the terminology as accurately as currently possible. :shrugs:

D80

So why is it so important for Amelanisitc, Hypomelanistic, and Anerythristic to be "scientifically accurate", but not any of the other morph names we have?

As well...you should be careful using terms like "scientifically accurate". Those words are used because of observation, but I don't recall ever seeing anything published anywhere that showed the controlled testing which would need to be done in order for the "scientific accuracy" of those words to be truthful. Nobody has researched the amel gene to see what is happening. Same is true of anery. Why do we have 3 different kinds of incompatible anerythrism? Nobody knows for sure because nobody knows what is happening biologically to create the pigment disruption. So the reality is...anerythristic is merely a best guess, not "scientifically accurate". We THINK it is a disruption in erythrin production...but nobody knows that to be 100% scientifically accurate because it has never been scientifically tested or proven as to exactly HOW or WHY erythrin production is disrupted. All we know is there are three incompatible types...Anerythristic, CharcoalAnery B, and Ashy/Z/Cinder/Anery C...all of which are strikingly scientifically accurate names, aren't they??

At least in boids and other colubrids they have "T+ albino" and "T- albino". At least there is an attempt at understanding the cause of the deficiency...

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

One is the original scientific definition, which I only mentioned to TME because of her choice of the words "All of a sudden", and the other is the currently accepted definition as it applies to snakes.

I was speaking about the term Hybino, not Albino when I said "all of a sudden."

Like everything else...as knowledge increased, definitions changed.

Exactly! So why are you arguing that we should be using Hybino (and Albino) when we use Amel, not Albino because that is the accurate term now?

Really? It's all about being accurate? Than why is it Caramel instead of hyperxanthism? Why is there NO attempt to discover the differences between charcoal(another really technically accurate term) and anery A? Why is there no effort being made to understand, accurately and scientifically, how these deficiencies come to be?

You're nitpicking all of this because of accuracy, yet in cornsnakes we have Cinder, Caramel, Ultra, Lavender, Charcoal, and who knows what else. This terminology is scientificaslly accurate? This terminology is definitive enough that you insist "albino" is inaccurate for amel and "hybino" is a brand new term?

I'm not nitpicking. I asked a serious question as to why it's all of a sudden showing up on the forum in reference to Cornsnakes...Because I didn't know why I was seeing it. You got your panties in a wad with my question and went on a tirade. Why exactly aren't you hounding Brent or Susan, who agree with me? Because they weren't the first to ask a question?

I, btw, wasn't just referencing Boid scientific terminology as far as morph names. I was also talking about the whole co-dominant / dominant / incomplete dominant issue running rampant with Boids. As Wade pointed out, most morph names are trade names...Meant to entice buyers, not by scientifically accurate.

As an example, Hypo Amel boas are called Sunglows...Sunglows in Cornsnakes are no white, bright Amels...So who's right and who's wrong? Neither! Because we're talking about two different species with two different sets of trade names!

YOU are the one "nitpicking" the word Hybino. YOU are the one that insists "all of a sudden" albino is no longer an acceptable term for amel. YOU are the one insisting that CS.com is the be-all of information and the CMG is no good because it contains opinions.

I asked a simple, easy to answer question. Where is the term Hybino all of a sudden coming from in reference to Cornsnakes? I also never said any of the bolded at all. What is certain individuals obsession with speaking for other people or making up statements? I really love how you completely ignore valid points from posters.