zwyatt said:
The counter to your argument is what can go wrong with cohabitation, why it is not a good idea and outlining the things that can potentially go wrong. There isn’t some conspiracy amongst the majority of cornsnake owners to discourage cohabitation to forward some hidden agenda. The people that discourage it typically do so because they truly feel that it is putting our (and your) snakes at an unnecessary risk.
My point is people are focusing on the negative far too much. Yes it can go wrong, just like driving a car can get you into an accident and many people do get hit but that doesn't nor should it stop people from driving or walking (I don't know anything about a conspiracy but hey you never know)
zwyatt said:
I’m not saying that there aren’t people out there who have kept two cornsnakes together without problems. However, the fact that you are increasing the chances of stress, disease transmission, and cannibalism outweigh the benefits of saving a bit of space or money from having one less viv.
Can you tell me what a stress corn snake does? how have people been able to know a corn snake is stressed?
Disease transmission? Keep a clean viv, clean water, etc, and like taking your kids to school, their is always a chance, but if you take care of your kids they might get a disease but with proper car and maintance you'll know if you have a problem on hand.
Cannibalism is too far and inbetween to use it as a point. Now for someone who houses 5+ snakes the chances of you getting aggression is stronger, but 2??
zwyatt said:
It’s funny that, in my experience, there is no evidence that corns are anything other than solitary and that most people’s impressions of snakes in general is that they are “creepy, crawly, disgusting” creatures, yet so many people think that they need a “cuddle buddy” or whatever cutesy name someone wants to give it.
Plenty of people have kept bears, tigers, other big cats, venomous reptiles, etc in captivity with no problems. But there are still enough instances of captive animal aggression for whole television shows to be made about “When good animals go bad” and those are just the ones that are actually caught on tape.
You're talking about WILD animals here, if for generations people have had tigers as pets without any instances of bitting and one bites his owner, then all tigers can't be kept as pets (thats the point your making)
zwyatt said:
Similarly, two corns can live together for years and one suddenly become aggressive.
you mean like real life, how some kids become aggressive and start beating up on their spouse?? Normally their are hints that this type of behavior is there.
zwyatt said:
Okay, anecdotal evidence from one person. Does the fact that you have kept a pair of corns together without incidence (so far) completely negate all the stories of people who have had bad experiences with cohabitating them? There are two sides to every coin.
problem 1, we are talking about bad experiences from many people, we are talking about what people have heard and read from places like this forum and taken as fact. If somebody asked me about cohabing corn snakes, at this point (not based on personal experience, just what I've read here) i'd think it was a horrible, horrible idea, that WILL end in death.... Kinda like the analogy of motorcycle riders... There are two types of riders, those who have fallen and those who will... two kinds of cohabing corn snakes.. those who have eaten another and those who WILL (its not true)
You're right their are two sides to every story, to me we've only heard one side and its the bad side....
zwyatt said:
You comments directly suggested that breeding cornsnakes as pets in some way should mean that they are more tolerable of cohabitation. My point is that this is only true IFF selective breeding was done specifically to produce cornsnakes that are in some way more tolerable of cohabitation, but that is not being done.
What i'm saying is cornsnakes have been breed long enough that the "SOLITARY" nature we speak so highly of should be lessened to a larger degree than people give credit.
zwyatt said:
I will restate my original claim because it still holds true: Again, breeding corns as pets is not the same as breeding for cohabitation tolerant pets. The arguement that corns have been bred for pets would be, at best, marginally relevant if and only if the most docile cornsnakes were allowed to breed. I think most people would argue that the foremost criteria for selecting which corns are bred is coloration, pattern, etc. with temperment being one of the last criteria.
When you breed an animal genes/behaviors are passed down most times. So I think we both agree on that point, HOWEVER, an aggressive corn snake can be seen from a mile away......
zwyatt said:
If you are breeding wild wolves in captivity (for example) then it is obviously in your best interest to choose the offspring that are the most docile. The same holds true for most other species that are captive bred. However, again, breeding stock for cornsnakes are not chosen based solely on their temperament. Breeders want to choose specimens that have the best coloration, patterns, etc and worry about temperament last. BESIDES, there is still no evidence that a snakes temperament is related to its tolerance of cohabitation with another snake.
Staying within your example (which people will debate is even needed) Follow me here, this is about to get interesting... Can you breed two aggressive wolves? If you answer no then over time you would get more docile wolfs (right?) My point is still over time (many generations) you'll get a more docile animal that can live in peace with others.
zwyatt said:
That’s hardly a reason to avoid cohabitation. Obviously it HAS happened, so you’re and my understanding of how likely it is, is irrelevant because it does/has happened. Again, opportunistic feeders.
Sure it probably is rare, and I would submit that the people who defend cannibalism among corns as being rare are generally those who are defending cohabitation practices…but that is neither here nor there. But how many cases does it take before it becomes a problem. If I had just one snake eat another, that would be one too many. Why would I even cohabitate them and give them that opportunity in the first place? There’s no need to worry too much about the “cannibalism is rare” argument. If cannibalism were the only reason that cohabitation is discouraged then I might take it into account a bit more, but it’s not, so I don’t. And the “cannibalism is rare” argument could just be a lack of evidence. How many people who witness cannibalism amongst there corns are willing to out themselves publicly and face a group of people who will tell them they shouldn’t have cohabitated in the first place? My guess is that it might be more common than thought both in the wild and in captive snakes. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Come on, ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN and you're stating because it can happen its going to happen or is happening on a higher basis than you can even truly state.
Let me say this..... I think alot of the fears stated about cohabitation is unwarranted with the proper care of the animal.
I've only had one instance of mites since i've had my corn snakes just one and it came from the mites from a mouse from my local pet store (i think) I've had one regurge that happened while my snake was in his cage and it was because of stress (probably) but more to do with me than the other snake... With proper car your snake will be fine......
The key is proper care
