Corns living together?? Yes or no?

[HaisseM]

Title of thread: "Corns living together yes or no?"



Well Messiah, you must be a computer psychoanalist, telling us how we should speak. The original question required a "yes or no" answer. She further went on and ask for opinion, Wikipedia defines opinion as:An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. If it later becomes proven or verified, it is no longer an opinion, but a fact.

I do believe that is exactly what we did give our statement "yes or no" and then gave our opinions about that answer. So maybe you should lead us all in the direction you want us to go, please teach us how to speak on this forum as I hang on every word.

Giving your opinion is fine, matter of fact like you stated it's what the TS wanted, however when you're opinion turns into facts that are illustrated in a negative manner to try and scare the other person into thinking your way, it goes beyond opinion....

Don't believe me? For a minute pretend you know nothing about corn snakes and read some of the threads on this site where people ask if they should house two snakes together....... Its been stated many times by many people thats its not the arguement about whither to keep two snakes housed togethers, its the headed exchanges between people just "trying" to educate others on the fallacy of their thinking and those being educated that turns it ugly.

Again i think Roy said it best, he wouldn't keep $1,000 corn snakes together (he doesn't keep the cheaper ones either) but only a fool would take that chance with soo much money invested

 

[zwyatt]

I see your point, but an extreme like DUI and cohabitating don't work as much

you mean like real life, how some kids become aggressive and start beating up on their spouse??

So, drawing a parallel between DUI and cohabitation is too far-fetched, but domestic abuse is fair game? :rollseyes:

What i'm saying is cornsnakes have been breed long enough that the "SOLITARY" nature we speak so highly of should be lessened to a larger degree than people give credit.

No. ONLY if a propensity towards solitary living is genetic and ONLY if people selectively breed snakes that are cohabitation tolerant. Living in close contact with people, who smell, sound and feel differently from snakes is NOT the same thing as living in close contact with other snakes. This argument has no basis. You are assuming that simply because cornsnakes have been in close contact with PEOPLE that their desire to be separate from other SNAKES has been bred out of them. :rollseyes:

Can you breed two aggressive wolves? If you answer no then over time you would get more docile wolfs (right?)

First of all, sure you can. Just because two animals have a tendency to be aggressive doesn't mean that they are that way 100% of the time and it doesn't mean that they won't breed if given the opportunity. Obviously, dogs raised for dogfighting are successfully bred and they are aggressive.
Secondly, inheritance doesn't require that both parents express a trait. In that case, if you had an aggressive male mating with a subordinate female, you wouldn't be surprised to see aggressive offspring. But this is assuming that aggression is completely genetic, which I would stake pretty much everything I own and ever will own on the fact that it is environmentally determined as much as genetically.

 

[Lennycorn]

The first time this question was asked on this forum was March 29, 2002.
The Archives....a beautiful thing, shame it's not highlighted more.
But this question is tiresome for most active members. So you will receive a lackluster responce.
My responce....No, simple as that, thank you.

 

[HaisseM]

Nope. For me, it means that there are inherent risks to cohabbing snakes/riding a motorcycle/driving drunk.

The legalities of driving drunk aside, it's up to the individual to make a decision based on those risks. If you get a cannibalization/do a face plant/kill yourself and/or others, well, that's the game you entered into. Don't look for sympathy or come running to a forum with "OMG OMG MY SANKE LAYD EGGZ WUT DO I DO?", and expect everyone to come running to your aid.

Weigh the risks, and come to your own informed decision. Just try not to evangelize those who have made the same considerations and have come to a different informed decision than you.

regards,
jazz

actually I find your statement and one other kinda weird (not as an insult to you, let me explain) I by no means think cohabing is the way to go for everyone and I think experience/common sense/luck plays a factor on why i've been able to do it without a problem, but others hold steadfast that it is wrong and should not be done under 99.9% of circumstances

the part i find weird, is I feel like i'm the only one open to new ideas about the subject matter yet you say i'm holding strong about cohabing

 

[zwyatt]

The Archives....a beautiful thing, shame it's not highlighted more.

You know back when I created the "New Users Guide" and Search Tutorial, I had an idea that I believe (and still do believe) would help with this type of thing in particular.

Some forums are set-up so that members have to view a certain page/thread before they are able to use the rest of the forum or see the topics. If something like that could be implemented here: a page that had direct links to good threads on say Cohabitation (novel idea, I know), substrate, feeding, etc...then maybe there wouldn't be quite as many problems :shrugs: I know it wouldn't eliminate the problems. Maybe new users could be forced to do one search before creating their first thread. Maybe we could rig an electrical shock to be sent through their keyboard if they type the letters c-o-h-a-b-i-t-a-t-i-o-n all at in one string. :grin01:
But seriously, there HAS to be something that can be done. It seems like this topic alone has come up several times in the last couple weeks.

 

[HaisseM]

No. ONLY if a propensity towards solitary living is genetic and ONLY if people selectively breed snakes that are cohabitation tolerant. Living in close contact with people, who smell, sound and feel differently from snakes is NOT the same thing as living in close contact with other snakes. This argument has no basis. You are assuming that simply because cornsnakes have been in close contact with PEOPLE that their desire to be separate from other SNAKES has been bred out of them. :rollseyes:

No my argument is over time, we've taken away the animals natural instinct to be a solitary creature since hatchling upon hatchling has been taken out of nature and introduced to people held (around others) more than it would have in the wild

First of all, sure you can. Just because two animals have a tendency to be aggressive doesn't mean that they are that way 100% of the time and it doesn't mean that they won't breed if given the opportunity. Obviously, dogs raised for dogfighting are successfully bred and they are aggressive.
Secondly, inheritance doesn't require that both parents express a trait. In that case, if you had an aggressive male mating with a subordinate female, you wouldn't be surprised to see aggressive offspring. But this is assuming that aggression is completely genetic, which I would stake pretty much everything I own and ever will own on the fact that it is environmentally determined as much as genetically.

Umm, if aggression is also part of the enviroment, then now that we've taken an animal from its home and moved it into a cage and is feed on a normal basis woudln't you imaging those aggressive behaviors are less likely to be seen?

Also I think I touched on it in a previous post, part of the reason my snakes have been ok in their situation is they've been raised that way

i won't touch your 1st objection because I believe it is not going to lead anywhere but a destructive path

 

[jazzgeek]

the part i find weird, is I feel like i'm the only one open to new ideas about the subject matter yet you say i'm holding strong about cohabing

NOWHERE did I assert that you were "holding strong".

You're taking this waaaaaay too personally. The person I'm directing my original point of "weigh the risks, and if it doesn't work out for you, don't come running to us" is, was, and ever shall be a generic "anyone".

That applies equally as well to my "don't try to evangelize anyone who has come to their own informed decision" point.

Finally, I find it to be a logical fallacy to imply that, since you do something differently than I do, you're the one who is "open to new ideas".

regards,
jazz


regards,
jazz

 

[jazzgeek]

And again I say:

regards,
jazz

 

[HaisseM]

You know back when I created the "New Users Guide" and Search Tutorial, I had an idea that I believe (and still do believe) would help with this type of thing in particular.

Some forums are set-up so that members have to view a certain page/thread before they are able to use the rest of the forum or see the topics. If something like that could be implemented here: a page that had direct links to good threads on say Cohabitation (novel idea, I know), substrate, feeding, etc...then maybe there wouldn't be quite as many problems :shrugs: I know it wouldn't eliminate the problems. Maybe new users could be forced to do one search before creating their first thread. Maybe we could rig an electrical shock to be sent through their keyboard if they type the letters c-o-h-a-b-i-t-a-t-i-o-n all at in one string. :grin01:
But seriously, there HAS to be something that can be done. It seems like this topic alone has come up several times in the last couple weeks.

maybe it has come up because there is no 100% answer and it still leavers questions to be answered. And if you check out my 1st post about the sex of snakes, you'll see someone asked me to search the issues on cohabing, which I did and still had questions about which i've now heard two different repsonses about.

 

[susang]

actually I find your statement and one other kinda weird (not as an insult to you, let me explain) I by no means think cohabing is the way to go for everyone and I think experience/common sense/luck plays a factor on why i've been able to do it without a problem, but others hold steadfast that it is wrong and should not be done under 99.9% of circumstances

the part i find weird, is I feel like i'm the only one open to new ideas about the subject matter yet you say i'm holding strong about cohabing

You know Messiah, you are trying my patience no where did anyone say 99.9% in fact the number I used was 71% from a poll done on this forum. If we were all closed minded as you say, there would be no new morphs. I don't co-hab because I lost a snake doing it, so I have experience in it. If I can recommend to someone the pitfalls and save them from loosing a snake I will. If you want to tell them to try go ahead.
You are playing a game of symantics here many of us have tried with nothing good coming out of, I guess we have no common sense. Some under good conditions do and are successful. What we say here is "bad idea and this is why," I suppose we could tell about the people for whom it works and say you decide, but then there would someone tellings us how wrong we are and how negative we are.

 

[HaisseM]

NOWHERE did I assert that you were "holding strong".

You're taking this waaaaaay too personally. The person I'm directing my original point of "weigh the risks, and if it doesn't work out for you, don't come running to us" is, was, and ever shall be a generic "anyone".

That applies equally as well to my "don't try to evangelize anyone who has come to their own informed decision" point.

Finally, I find it to be a logical fallacy to imply that, since you do something differently than I do, you're the one who is "open to new ideas".

regards,
jazz




regards,
jazz

you're response was sent to me, so I assumed you were talking to me, but ok

In regards to the statement about being open to new ideas. simply put, my views on cohabing has changed from when I first started reading post here no... While I don't feel it is as serious as some have made it, I will tell you if I sell or give away the babies I will without a doubt tell people cohabing may or may not be the best idea

 

[jazzgeek]

you're response was sent to me, so I assumed you were talking to me, but ok

BZZZT. Thanks for playing, here's a home version of our game.

I quoted your post. I responded to the open forum/thread. If I'd have intended it for you alone, I'd have PM'd you.

In regards to the statement about being open to new ideas. simply put, my views on cohabing has changed from when I first started reading post here no... While I don't feel it is as serious as some have made it, I will tell you if I sell or give away the babies I will without a doubt tell people cohabing may or may not be the best idea

Which, in my opinion, is akin to telling them that today is either Wednesday or it's not. It's tautological.

I'll continue to advise them to come to their own conclusions after assessing the risks.

regards,
jazz

 

[HaisseM]

You know Messiah, you are trying my patience no where did anyone say 99.9% in fact the number I used was 71% from a poll done on this forum. If we were all closed minded as you say, there would be no new morphs. I don't co-hab because I lost a snake doing it, so I have experience in it. If I can recommend to someone the pitfalls and save them from loosing a snake I will. If you want to tell them to try go ahead.
You are playing a game of symantics here many of us have tried with nothing good coming out of, I guess we have no common sense. Some under good conditions do and are successful. What we say here is "bad idea and this is why," I suppose we could tell about the people for whom it works and say you decide, but then there would someone tellings us how wrong we are and how negative we are.

That 99.9% has nothing to do with the ratio of people who think cohabing is wrong vs those who think its right. It has to do with the people who stand firm behind not cohabing under no circumstances. (There are some who say its ok if done for a limited amount of time for breeding/etc, but i was trying to avoid that aspect of the confersation) In regards to your 71% if I was playing stupid games, then I would have noted that the previous person who you were speaking to, says he got his information from a multitude of sources/forums not just this board which you did.

 

[zwyatt]

No my argument is over time, we've taken away the animals natural instinct to be a solitary creature since hatchling upon hatchling has been taken out of nature and introduced to people held (around others) more than it would have in the wild

Are you even reading my responses? I know what you are saying and I am saying that breeding snakes in captivity and contact with HUMAN PEOPLE is not the same as breeding the solitary nature out of them. And, NO, breeding for more docile snakes, which I have already argued is not necessarily the case with most breeders, does NOT make them more tolerable of cohabitation. A snake that is perfectly docile around a person might be completely intolerable of sharing its living quarters with another creature 24/7 and, as a result show hostility towards it. We are talking about being solitary with respect to SNAKES not HUMAN PEOPLE.

If you toss a bunch of cornsnakes into a viv and over time take out the ones that show aggression towards one another and only keep and breed the ones that "get along" and keep doing this generation after generation, THEN you would be selectively breeding for cohabitation tolerant snakes. However, there is nothing remotely like this currently happening that I am aware of...but from the sounds of it, you've got a leg-up on that experiment

Umm, if aggression is also part of the enviroment, then now that we've taken an animal from its home and moved it into a cage and is feed on a normal basis woudln't you imaging those aggressive behaviors are less likely to be seen?

No. You've completely misunderstood what I meant. I'll have to think about how to explain this more clearly.

 

[HaisseM]

BZZZT. Thanks for playing, here's a home version of our game.

I quoted your post. I responded to the open forum/thread. If I'd have intended it for you alone, I'd have PM'd you.

my bad, i thought it was directed at me - oh well

Which, in my opinion, is akin to telling them that today is either Wednesday or it's not. It's tautological.

I'll continue to advise them to come to their own conclusions after assessing the risks.

regards,
jazz

HUH?

 

[Roy Munson]

I should also point out that many would say that you have an ethical obligation to give the same quality care to your $40 pair of anerys as your $2000 pair of cinders. I have to say that I would agree with these people. My cheap pet store normal gets the same care as my cinders.

I guess what I don't understand about this question is that it is no more difficult to house them separately than to keep them together. Even space limitations aren't really an issue. Two corns kept together require the same floor-space as two corns kept apart. I've done it both ways, so I know. In fact, I think it was tougher keeping them together because I really had to give them a lot of time to get out of hunting-mode before I re-introduced them after feeding, when each snake still smelled like their prey. :shrugs:

 

[HaisseM]

Are you even reading my responses? I know what you are saying and I am saying that breeding snakes in captivity and contact with HUMAN PEOPLE is not the same as breeding the solitary nature out of them. And, NO, breeding for more docile snakes, which I have already argued is not necessarily the case with most breeders, does NOT make them more tolerable of cohabitation. A snake that is perfectly docile around a person might be completely intolerable of sharing its living quarters with another creature 24/7 and, as a result show hostility towards it. We are talking about being solitary with respect to SNAKES not HUMAN PEOPLE.

yea i'm reading them, matter of fact I read them twice when i quote but I see your point, my part to that is once you start handling them you override some of those aggressive behaviors, while you're right its not the same as two snakes living together, but over time those two ideas mesh together. A person handling a snake gears the snake towards not being alone, unless you are saying even when the snake is handled it is still alone ( i would disagree with that, since company is company *to an extent*)

If you toss a bunch of cornsnakes into a viv and over time take out the ones that show aggression towards one another and only keep and breed the ones that "get along" and keep doing this generation after generation, THEN you would be selectively breeding for cohabitation tolerant snakes. However, there is nothing remotely like this currently happening that I am aware of...but from the sounds of it, you've got a leg-up on that experiment

Selective breeding doesn't have to be the strigent to happen

 

[zwyatt]

maybe it has come up because there is no 100% answer

No, I don't think that's it. I think it's that people don't search. If you search and read the numerous debates about cohabitation I can't imagine what is unclear about the two opposite sides of the story. I think people get it in their mind that they want to cohabitate and so they start a thread trying to find justification and support, but what they find is not what they were hoping for.

 

[jazzgeek]

I will without a doubt tell people cohabing may or may not be the best idea

Which, in my opinion, is akin to telling them that today is either Wednesday or it's not. It's tautological.

HUH?

What's not to understand?

regards,
jazz

 

[zwyatt]

Selective breeding doesn't have to be the strigent to happen

By definition, selective breeding (in this case on one trait - cohab tolerance) cannot occur unless selection is occuring. In this case, you are either selecting for cohab tolerant snakes or you aren't.



Darn, I've got to go to class for a while. Don't have too much fun without me!