Corns living together?? Yes or no?

[HaisseM]

Messiah
You posted this on 9/14 Sex of Snakes....

So here is my story, I bought two corns snakes about 3 or more months apart a couple of years ago. One day I looked in the cage and noticed a batch of eggs (I got a breeding pair by accident) So I'm now on my 3rd batch (2 per Batch, 10+ eggs per batch) <--- hopefully that makes sense.

Anyways how can i tell which is the male and which is the female? One snake is considerably larger than the other??? I'm curious....

To this on 9/24
*What do you mean kinked, you think he came out too early? I didn't force him out or even touch the egg, matter of fact, I had to search for him in the main cage
*hmmm, scary.... I don't have an incubator, This is my 1st set since i've been in colorado.....
9/25/07
*No clue what GG's are, i'm guessing you mean eggs..... Here is what I do and have done for last 6 batches of eggs.... (i am in no way saying this is the correct method and I actually should have taken them to a pet store here in Colorado for him to incubate)

After eggs are laid I will take a smaller cage one of those mini carry cages and places bedding (aspen and dirt) and place the eggs in their... again its worked for the last 6 batches but this is my 1st year in Denver and it does get cold here compared to AZ where it was always HOT.....

once i have the mini cages filled with eggs and bedding I place it back into the cage and surround it with bedding inside the cage (my bedding is pretty thick) and wait for the eggs to hatch....

I do this because I BELIEVE AND SEEN the snakes cuddle/warm the eggs to keep them warm

To this most enlightening statement today:
Like i said before I took my snakes to the vet when they were young, i already have an idea which is the male and female but I wanted to be 100% sure

You say on one hand I know the sex-I took them to the vet to be sexed (who looked at them and determined from there look their sex)-to I knew what they were but I wanted conformation from a vet- Anyways how can i tell which is the male and which is the female?

lead me Oh! wise one.

not sure i get what your saying.... I'd assume you're trying to mock me, but....... What confusion do you have about my statements so i can clarify them for you

 

[Roy Munson]

You guys are coming real close to crossing the line. Please tone down the antagonism.

HaisseM can give all the good, bad, or neutral advice he wants, and everyone else is always welcome to counter it. No big deal. It's obvious that the majority of knowledgable keepers around here discourage cohabbing. It's a matter of public record in a hundred threads and I'm sure the majority opinion will be presented in a hundred more. I'm not worried about HaisseM's snakes because I don't have time to worry about everyone else's snakes. Now everyone go confirm that their enclosures are escape-proof because escape is the #1 killer of corn snakes (imho). (Had to get that in somewhere. )

HaisseM: I'll let Zach (Zwyatt) address your points himself, but comparing snakes with humans is never going to win arguments. And I don't think you two are using the same definition of the word "selection".

 

[starsevol]

Susang, It's one thing to be clueless and ask questions. It's another to be clueless, ignore advice from experianced breeders and hobbyists, and claim you know what you're doing because "so far it's working".

And his schock about "risk". These are the people who should NEVER have children!

 

[HaisseM]

Susang, It's one thing to be clueless and ask questions. It's another to be clueless, ignore advice from experianced breeders and hobbyists, and claim you know what you're doing because "so far it's working".

And his schock about "risk". These are the people who should NEVER have children!

LOL, you've got to be kidding me.... reread what Roy said....

 

[starsevol]

You act like my cage is only big enough for 1 snake and can only fit 1 snake... They have enough room to choose where they want to be and sometimes they chill together and something they don't One snake likes the hide, the other likes bury itself in the bedding. So unless you can prove to me, my snakes don't enjoy there current setup, then don't tell me they don't.

Again, do these little guilt ridden lines work anymore?

I don't have to prove a thing to you.
This thread alone has earned me twice as many reps as you've got since you've been here.
Virtually everyone thinks you're wrong. But that doesn't matter since you have allllll the answers and are alllllways right!
But I pity your "babies".

 

[starsevol]

Sorry Dean

Now I need to write 500 times on the chalkboard *I won't feed the trolls*.

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

I give up. I don't care what you do. People come on this board and ask for opinions yet when they are given by experienced keepers, all we get is a lot of people like yourself who only have one or two snakes for a short period of time who think they know everything because they haven't had a problem.
Yes. It actually is 50/50...either something will go wrong or it won't. Those are the only two options with cohabitating. If you have not had a problem yet it is not because of your superior keeping skills - it has just been dumb luck. Even the experienced individuals who have cohabbed without problem normally advise against it for newbies.

I personally feel sorry for your snakes. I currently own 40 and would never consider cohabbing them and putting them at risk for all the issues mentioned previously. As starsevol noted, handling, feeding and heating are requirements of snake keeping, but cohabbing is not. It is an unneccessary risk while the others are necessary risks. I do not feed live for the same reason - unneccessary risk. I have one or two snakes that will not eat f/t but I monitor them when I feed them. Even with 40 snakes - each one comes out of its viv and eats in a separate container with me watching - even the ones that eat f/t.

I am done with this thread...I pity your snakes but will not feel one iota of sadness for you when something happens to one of them and you come crying to us not understanding what went wrong.

If a someone like Joe Pierce, Don Soderberg, Rich Zuchowski or Kathy Love wants to give advice to newbies about how to properly cohab snakes - then their advice would be welcome - but coming from someone with only two snakes who didn't even know the sex of their snakes or about not feeding crickets - you should not be giving anyone advice about cohabbing.

 

[starsevol]

ArpeggioAngel,
I wish I could rep you again.

 

[HaisseM]

I give up. I don't care what you do. People come on this board and ask for opinions yet when they are given by experienced keepers, all we get is a lot of people like yourself who only have one or two snakes for a short period of time who think they know everything because they haven't had a problem.
Yes. It actually is 50/50...either something will go wrong or it won't. Those are the only two options with cohabitating. If you have not had a problem yet it is not because of your superior keeping skills - it has just been dumb luck. Even the experienced individuals who have cohabbed without problem normally advise against it for newbies.

I agree cohabing isn't for everyone like I've stated many times. but many people on here make it seem like it will result in death every time. Just like you hope to educate people not to do it because of the risk involved, I am to let people know it can be done safetly if "the conditions are right" and how do I know the conditions are right? Because my snakes haven't/dont get sick (regurge or have any disesases) and their still alive. Since regurging is just one sign of stress and I don't have that problem its safe to say I'm ok there also

I personally feel sorry for your snakes. I currently own 40 and would never consider cohabbing them and putting them at risk for all the issues mentioned previously. As starsevol noted, handling, feeding and heating are requirements of snake keeping, but cohabbing is not. It is an unneccessary risk while the others are necessary risks. I do not feed live for the same reason - unneccessary risk. I have one or two snakes that will not eat f/t but I monitor them when I feed them. Even with 40 snakes - each one comes out of its viv and eats in a separate container with me watching - even the ones that eat f/t.

I am done with this thread...I pity your snakes but will not feel one iota of sadness for you when something happens to one of them and you come crying to us not understanding what went wrong.

If a someone like Joe Pierce, Don Soderberg, Rich Zuchowski or Kathy Love wants to give advice to newbies about how to properly cohab snakes - then their advice would be welcome - but coming from someone with only two snakes who didn't even know the sex of their snakes or about not feeding crickets - you should not be giving anyone advice about cohabbing.

I don't give advice on how to cohab, i just defend the fact it can be done and is not as horrible as people try to make it seem

 

[zwyatt]

I officially give up.

Okay, I've been lured from retirement by my love of sport. If Michael Jordan, Rogers Clemens and countless others can do it, then so can I.

While I will admit your reasoning seems to be better, there are still some problems that I see.

Here you state aggression is both genetic and environmental, which i agree with. Thus when you take snakes away from their environment for your "selective breeding" you are actually at this point altering part of their aggressive nature alone with many other attributes that are tied to their environment. So unless you can reproduce their environment 100% you've removed part of their aggressive nature (not in all cases)

You are making too many assumptions. You are assuming that a change of setting and a change of a few environmental factors is automatically altering aggression. How can you assume this? How? An environment isn't one singular entity. It is made up of a wide variety of different factorsthat collectively make up the environment. One could argue that a number of environmental factors are the same (or relatively close) in captivity as in nature. In captivity, temps, type of food, light/dark cycles, humidity, etc. are all relatively close to natural conditions for cornsnakes, if cared for properly. So the captive environment isn't automatically all that different from the natural environment.

Just because behaviors can be partially environmentally determined doesn't mean that they are 100% tied to the environment. It means that they are PARTIALLY environmentally determined not completely environmentally determined. Here's an example and stick with me here...

Egg hatching is partially environmentally determined. First, the genes in the embryo will determine if that egg is viable and throughout the development process as different genes are turning on and being expressed, if something isn't right genetically, the embryo may abort and the egg never hatch. The other side is the environmental determination. The temperature, humidity, and oxygen level (the environmental FACTORS) will further determine if that egg will survive and hatch...
Now, by your agrument, eggs that are captively incubated shouldn't even hatch because the environment has been changed. This is the same argument you are making about aggression. However, we all know that this doesn't hold true because eggs have been hatching in captivity for years and years. This is because, although the environmental setting has been changed (nature --> incubator), the environmental factors that are critical to egg hatching are the same as in nature.

Plus, the argument that you are now making is based on reasoning that thinks that aggression is purely environmental. If aggression is both genetic and environmental (and would most likely consist of some GenotypexEnvironment (GxE) interactions), then simply changing the environment, or some factors of the environment, would not necessarily change aggression....you have to change the specific factors that affect aggression. What your argument suggests is that a change of scenery (nature --> captivity), is automatically enough to change aggression because we haven't even established that the factors that affect aggression are even different between captivity and nature...you are assuming this.

 

[Roy Munson]

Sorry Dean

Now I need to write 500 times on the chalkboard *I won't feed the trolls*.

:nope:

Beth, I don't think that HaisseM is really a troll. I've agreed with very few of his opinions myself, but I defend his right to express them.

----------------------------------------------------------

HaisseM: My FRIENDLY advice to you would be to gain more experience before presenting yourself as such an ardent cohab-crusader. I cohab'd many groups and combinations of corns for years and years, and my experiences and observations led me to abandon the practice even before I had read others' opinions. If you're passionate about corns, you'll find that there are many more interesting things to discuss than this tired, old topic.

 

[jazzgeek]

Well, I for one will be celebrating HaisseM's scientific process and conclusions!!!!! :cheers:

I'll start with a celebratory dinner of buttered sausages with gravy and cream cheese, and have a quart of frozen custard for dessert.

What's that you say?

Heart attack? What are you talking about? I'll be fine, because I haven't had a myocardial infarction yet.

Besides, I'll clear my system with an after-dinner mint; a pack of Marlboro Menthols.

Cancer? Good Lord, you people worry too much. I haven't had cancer yet, so it's all good.

regards,
jazz

 

[starsevol]

:nope:

Beth, I don't think that HaisseM is really a troll. I've agreed with very few of his opinions myself, but I defend his right to express them.

----------------------------------------------------------

HaisseM: My FRIENDLY advice to you would be to gain more experience before presenting yourself as such an ardent cohab-crusader. I cohab'd many groups and combinations of corns for years and years, and my experiences and observations led me to abandon the practice even before I had read others' opinions. If you're passionate about corns, you'll find that there are many more interesting things to discuss than this tired, old topic.

I know he is most likely not a troll. Just a know-it-all. BUT if I'm busy writing on a chalkboard I won't be running my mouth off and getting myself in trouble.

We redheads have it ROUGH, what with the temper and all!

 

[zwyatt]

We redheads have it ROUGH, what with the temper and all!

You too!? That makes at least two of us in this thread. Maybe there is something to this redheaded temper theory I've heard all my life.

 

[susang]

I'm not a redhead, but I am seriously trying to figure how long the ban would be and if it's worth it.

 

[starsevol]

Susang, wish I could rep you again!

 

[HaisseM]

Okay, I've been lured from retirement by my love of sport. If Michael Jordan, Rogers Clemens and countless others can do it, then so can I.

While I will admit your reasoning seems to be better, there are still some problems that I see.





You are making too many assumptions. You are assuming that a change of setting and a change of a few environmental factors is automatically altering aggression. How can you assume this? How? An environment isn't one singular entity. It is made up of a wide variety of different factorsthat collectively make up the environment. One could argue that a number of environmental factors are the same (or relatively close) in captivity as in nature. In captivity, temps, type of food, light/dark cycles, humidity, etc. are all relatively close to natural conditions for cornsnakes, if cared for properly. So the captive environment isn't automatically all that different from the natural environment.

Doesn't it have to be based on assumptions? unless you can directly tell me what does change? but here is why i make that assumption. In the wild, snakes have natural predators/enemys as well as competition for food source. Those two things alone either make a snake aggressive or died <-- is that a fair assumption? So when you take the snake out of natural element where fighting for food sources is no longer a problem it should be less likely to be aggressive. Also the fear or natural predators while is embedded in the snake over time it will no longer sense its predator. Hence if you took a wild snake and a tame one, the tame one would either be killed or stress out the wild one because it hasn't been accolmated to its new surrodings

Just because behaviors can be partially environmentally determined doesn't mean that they are 100% tied to the environment. It means that they are PARTIALLY environmentally determined not completely environmentally determined. Here's an example and stick with me here...

Egg hatching is partially environmentally determined. First, the genes in the embryo will determine if that egg is viable and throughout the development process as different genes are turning on and being expressed, if something isn't right genetically, the embryo may abort and the egg never hatch. The other side is the environmental determination. The temperature, humidity, and oxygen level (the environmental FACTORS) will further determine if that egg will survive and hatch...
Now, by your agrument, eggs that are captively incubated shouldn't even hatch because the environment has been changed. This is the same argument you are making about aggression. However, we all know that this doesn't hold true because eggs have been hatching in captivity for years and years. This is because, although the environmental setting has been changed (nature --> incubator), the environmental factors that are critical to egg hatching are the same as in nature.

my above post should address what you are talking about.

Plus, the argument that you are now making is based on reasoning that thinks that aggression is purely environmental. If aggression is both genetic and environmental (and would most likely consist of some GenotypexEnvironment (GxE) interactions), then simply changing the environment, or some factors of the environment, would not necessarily change aggression....you have to change the specific factors that affect aggression. What your argument suggests is that a change of scenery (nature --> captivity), is automatically enough to change aggression because we haven't even established that the factors that affect aggression are even different between captivity and nature...you are assuming this.

However you are changing the factors that affect aggression... see above post again

 

[HaisseM]

:nope:

Beth, I don't think that HaisseM is really a troll. I've agreed with very few of his opinions myself, but I defend his right to express them.

----------------------------------------------------------

HaisseM: My FRIENDLY advice to you would be to gain more experience before presenting yourself as such an ardent cohab-crusader. I cohab'd many groups and combinations of corns for years and years, and my experiences and observations led me to abandon the practice even before I had read others' opinions. If you're passionate about corns, you'll find that there are many more interesting things to discuss than this tired, old topic.

If I was a troll I would have responded her 1st attempt to insult me before she deleted it (yes i read it and laughed)

I'm not a co-hab crusader per say, as much as people are stating their opinions on the matter as fact and because its an emotional topic they feel so strongly about they also are coming across like if you do it there is 100% chance you snake will die, which isn't true and has been proven time and time again.

But I feel like I have to state this yet again, not for you, but for anyone who reads my post and think I want everyone to cohab

I do not think Co-Habing is for everyone and firmly believe the conditions have to be right. For the very reasons people state co-habing is wrong I feel are my reassurance that my conditions for corn snakes are correct.

If there was another way to detect stress from a corn snake besides regurging or not eating I would be more than willing to look into it.

 

[Corny Noob]

I gave up on the fifth page this is ridiculous.

The ONLY reasoning I saw thus far BENIFITING THE SNAKES, was that they "seemed" happy.

...seemingly lame argument, when there's physical proof, trauma and loss from the other side.

Ok now I'm done

 

[HaisseM]

I'm not a redhead, but I am seriously trying to figure how long the ban would be and if it's worth it.

Do what someone else did and send me a PM then you don't have to worry about the ban