Corns living together?? Yes or no?

[HaisseM]

I KNOW the story is true. I know the breeder it happened to, and I saw the picture.


Sooo why do you think that you are right, and alllllllll the people who have been keeping and breeding cornsnakes for literally decades are wrong?

Maybe "messiah" has a "God complex"?

Why do I think snakes can be cohabited? because i'm doing it with no ill effects.

And allllllllll the people who breed don't say its wrong

 

[zwyatt]

or i just have a difference of opinion on the matter.... Someone can disagree with your logic and not be stupid

Didn't say you were stupid. Again putting words in my mouth. I did suggest that you were unable to demonstrate a proper understanding of evolution and selection as it is understood by the scientific community, which I still stand by.

 

[HaisseM]

Didn't say you were stupid. Again putting words in my mouth. I did suggest that you were unable to demonstrate a proper understanding of evolution and selection as it is understood by the scientific community, which I still stand by.

No serious, here is what i'm going to do... i'm going to reread your post about breeding - and point out the flaws... i'll then post the flaws here for you to dispute

I decided to spell that out for you, since you don't think I can read between the lines

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

Ya know what guys - there is no point to this argument any longer. This individual is going to do whatever he wants to do regardless of what opinions, facts, proof we can show him about the risks of cohabitating.
He may be cohabitating now with no ill effects (that he knows of), but if something bad does happen down the road, he can look back at this thread and say "hey...those guys were right".
We are not getting anywhere by beating a dead horse over and over again.
I just don't want to hear any whining when one or both of the snakes becomes sick or anything else. We have given all the advice, suggestions, reasons why not to cohab so if something bad happens, he will have no one to blame but himself.

 

[starsevol]

You're doing it with no ill effects......yet.
If you have read this thread virtually everyone has said either don't do it, or do it only with ALOT of experiance and monitering.

If you need a vet to tell you which animal keeps laying eggs, you obviously are not experianced OR monitering your snakes. (Hint, BEFORE laying eggs, females get lumpy. They lay eggs, which takes hours. If you checked your snakes daily you would probably see the female actually laying the eggs. After laying, the female is skinny and looks like a piece of spaghetti. It doesn't take a genius, honestly.)

You thought crickets were actually a viable dietary option for corn snakes. That says not experianced enough.

You admitted that you never watched for bites after feeding, means you're not monitering them enough.

Sure, SO FAR its working out fine....for YOU. If something bad happens, your snakes will pay the price, not you. You don't seem to give a hoot about that. I think that's what is bothering the posters here the most. We LOVE our snakes here, and the idea that someone is purposely putting them at risk, for no other reason than "because I want to" is a bit infuriating and says alot about not only what kind of pet owner you are, but what kind of person.

 

[HaisseM]

Here you state aggression is both genetic and environmental, which i agree with. Thus when you take snakes away from their environment for your "selective breeding" you are actually at this point altering part of their aggressive nature alone with many other attributes that are tied to their environment. So unless you can reproduce their environment 100% you've removed part of their aggressive nature (not in all cases)




Lets see... If you take a kid from the projects/ghetto where he has to fight in school and at home and place him into a softer side of town because he is failing in school, you are taking him from his "Home" where his aggressive side is needed to survive. Now here is trick, when you're taking him out of that environment because you feel his education is suffering and thats your focal point(Selection). Well guess what while you may have been selective in moving him because of his education, you're also addressing his aggressive side because its no longer need in his new home. THUS this selective process isn't as strigent as to what you are changing

So in closing....

Once you remove someone/something from its natural setting you are changing more than one aspect of their life that can/does have a multitude of affects, unless you are mimicking every other factor in their life besides your one controlled variable

 

[HaisseM]

Originally Posted by zwyatt
First of all, sure you can. Just because two animals have a tendency to be aggressive doesn't mean that they are that way 100% of the time and it doesn't mean that they won't breed if given the opportunity. Obviously, dogs raised for dogfighting are successfully bred and they are aggressive.
Secondly, inheritance doesn't require that both parents express a trait. In that case, if you had an aggressive male mating with a subordinate female, you wouldn't be surprised to see aggressive offspring. But this is assuming that aggression is completely genetic, which I would stake pretty much everything I own and ever will own on the fact that it is environmentally determined as much as genetically.

Here you state aggression is both genetic and environmental, which i agree with. Thus when you take snakes away from their environment for your "selective breeding" you are actually at this point altering part of their aggressive nature alone with many other attributes that are tied to their environment. So unless you can reproduce their environment 100% you've removed part of their aggressive nature (not in all cases)

When I said that aggression is partly "environmentally determined" that doesn't mean strictly the natural environment. Environment just means any surroundings. I wasn't saying that the natural environment (of Florida, for example) is what makes cornsnakes aggressive and that taking them out of the wild and into captivity is taking the aggression away. When you take something from the wild and begin breeding it in captivity, you aren't taking it out of THE environment...you are just changing the environment.

Lets see... If you take a kid from the projects/ghetto where he has to fight in school and at home and place him into a softer side of town because he is failing in school, you are taking him from his "Home" where his aggressive side is needed to survive. Now here is trick, when you're taking him out of that environment because you feel his education is suffering and thats your focal point(Selection). Well guess what while you may have been selective in moving him because of his education, you're also addressing his aggressive side because its no longer need in his new home. THUS this selective process isn't as strigent as to what you are changing

So in closing....

Once you remove someone/something from its natural setting you are changing more than one aspect of their life that can/does have a multitude of affects, unless you are mimicking every other factor in their life besides your one controlled variable

 

[Lennycorn]

Anybody know how to get to I-95 south???

 

[HaisseM]

You're doing it with no ill effects......yet.
If you have read this thread virtually everyone has said either don't do it, or do it only with ALOT of experiance and monitering.

You say yet like it's going to happen, can you tell me with 100% its going to happen? Thats why I post in threads like this, because lots of people make it seem like its gonna happen sooner or later which isn't true. It may or may not happen and you can't be sure

If you need a vet to tell you which animal keeps laying eggs, you obviously are not experianced OR monitering your snakes. (Hint, BEFORE laying eggs, females get lumpy. They lay eggs, which takes hours. If you checked your snakes daily you would probably see the female actually laying the eggs. After laying, the female is skinny and looks like a piece of spaghetti. It doesn't take a genius, honestly.)

Like i said before I took my snakes to the vet when they were young, i already have an idea which is the male and female but I wanted to be 100% sure

You thought crickets were actually a viable dietary option for corn snakes. That says not experianced enough.

I asked if it was a viable diet since i've never heard of it before....

You admitted that you never watched for bites after feeding, means you're not monitering them enough.

How much monitoring do you want? Want me to stare day in and day out. No I don't sit their and watch them all the live long day, Since for the last I don't know 1once a week feeding for over 3 years so thats 52x3=156 - so for the at least the last 156 times I've put my snakes into their bin after feeding and never had a problem. When i say I don't watch them, remember i have to hold them when I put them in and i have to put two snakes in (one at a time) I would have noticed something at this point

Sure, SO FAR its working out fine....for YOU. If something bad happens, your snakes will pay the price, not you. You don't seem to give a hoot about that. I think that's what is bothering the posters here the most. We LOVE our snakes here, and the idea that someone is purposely putting them at risk, for no other reason than "because I want to" is a bit infuriating and says alot about not only what kind of pet owner you are, but what kind of person.

You're kidding right... my mom won't come visit me because i have snakes and tells me to get rid of them, I tell her they are my babies and I won't do that and you're telling me I don't care about my snakes ...... OOOOOK

The kind of person I am... you have some nerve - LOL

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

It may or may not happen and you can't be sure

EXACTLY!!! Which is why most of us choose not to cohabitate and take that risk. What are you going to do if something does happen? Say "oh well"??? Why would you take the risk in the first place? That is the part I think most of us don't understand. It does not benefit the snakes to house them together in any way. So you are taking unnecessary risk on their behalf when you do not have to.

 

[starsevol]

No, I don't "know" that something bad is going to happen. But even a 25% chance that something MIGHT would get a caring keeper off his a$$ and those snakes seperate! It may, it may not. It's a game of Russian Roulette. If something happens (note the word "if"), It's YOUR fault. And keeping them seperate means that something is LESS LIKELY to happen. Can't you understand that?

Your "babies"...yeah right. If you truly cared about them, you would cut the risk that something could happen and seperate them. You would give your female a break and not subject her to year round harassing by the male.
Experianced hobbyists and breeders are telling you that co-habbing is NOT the best thing for your "babies". Yet you make excuses. If you truly CARED about these snakes, you would want what's best for them. It appears that you don't care about them a bit. If you truly care about these snakes, then ACT LIKE IT AND SEPERATE THEM!

Your mother might have a point. Those snakes would be alot better off with an owner who does what is best for them.

You are one of those guys who always has to be right. Well, guess what? You're NOT.

 

[HaisseM]

EXACTLY!!! Which is why most of us choose not to cohabitate and take that risk. What are you going to do if something does happen? Say "oh well"??? Why would you take the risk in the first place? That is the part I think most of us don't understand. It does not benefit the snakes to house them together in any way. So you are taking unnecessary risk on their behalf when you do not have to.

Lets see how I can explain this. Their are risk in every thing you do, some people choose to avoid as many risk as they can, others say risk is apart of life and you accept it.

Now somebody will say as a owner its my job to remove every risk from my pet so nothing happens. To that I say, do you take your snake out its cage? you do realize you're risking dropping it, do you have an under the tank heater? You do realize their is a risk your snake might get over exposed. Do you feed your snake live food? You do realize their is a risk your snake might get bitten. Do you get a shower before you handle your snake ( I say shower because the snake doesn't just touch your hand) You do realize their is a chance you'll pass on a disease... shall I continue or do you get my point

 

[starsevol]

EXACTLY!!! Which is why most of us choose not to cohabitate and take that risk. What are you going to do if something does happen? Say "oh well"??? Why would you take the risk in the first place? That is the part I think most of us don't understand. It does not benefit the snakes to house them together in any way. So you are taking unnecessary risk on their behalf when you do not have to.

ArpeggioAngel, he thinks if he seperates them, they will get bored and lonely. Better they die of the stress of co-habbing than be bored and lonely!!

 

[HaisseM]

No, I don't "know" that something bad is going to happen. But even a 25% chance that something MIGHT would get a caring keeper off his a$$ and those snakes seperate! It may, it may not. It's a game of Russian Roulette. If something happens (note the word "if"), It's YOUR fault. And keeping them seperate means that something is LESS LIKELY to happen. Can't you understand that?

Its not 50/50 so stop acting like it is.

Your "babies"...yeah right. If you truly cared about them, you would cut the risk that something could happen and seperate them. You would give your female a break and not subject her to year round harassing by the male.
Experianced hobbyists and breeders are telling you that co-habbing is NOT the best thing for your "babies". Yet you make excuses. If you truly CARED about these snakes, you would want what's best for them. It appears that you don't care about them a bit. If you truly care about these snakes, then ACT LIKE IT AND SEPERATE THEM!

Your mother might have a point. Those snakes would be alot better off with an owner who does what is best for them.

You are one of those guys who always has to be right. Well, guess what? You're NOT.

you're starting to make this personal with little snippits at me. 1st calm you a$$ down and understand something, you live your life in fear I don't and like its been stated before it can be done without a problem and thats what i'm doing.

 

[starsevol]

Lets see how I can explain this. Their are risk in every thing you do, some people choose to avoid as many risk as they can, others say risk is apart of life and you accept it.

Now somebody will say as a owner its my job to remove every risk from my pet so nothing happens. To that I say, do you take your snake out its cage? you do realize you're risking dropping it, do you have an under the tank heater? You do realize their is a risk your snake might get over exposed. Do you feed your snake live food? You do realize their is a risk your snake might get bitten. Do you get a shower before you handle your snake ( I say shower because the snake doesn't just touch your hand) You do realize their is a chance you'll pass on a disease... shall I continue or do you get my point

Those things are a part of life. Delibrately forcing 2 snakes to live together is NOT. Handling, heating, feeding..these things as a keeper are things you need to do. Co-habbing is something that you DON'T need to do.

 

[HaisseM]

Those things are a part of life. Delibrately forcing 2 snakes to live together is NOT. Handling, heating, feeding..these things as a keeper are things you need to do. Co-habbing is something that you DON'T need to do.

Being around another snake is also PART of LIFE.... They've gotten used to it, now why can't you.

 

[starsevol]

Its not 50/50 so stop acting like it is.


you're starting to make this personal with little snippits at me. 1st calm you a$$ down and understand something, you live your life in fear I don't and like its been stated before it can be done without a problem and thats what i'm doing.

I do not live my life in fear. I just don't believe in taking UNNECCESSARY risks with the well-being of my pets. Some risks are neccessary, some aren't. Co-habbing is for NO ONE'S benefit but your own. Very selfish stance on your part.

 

[starsevol]

Being around another snake is also PART of LIFE.... They've gotten used to it, now why can't you.

Solitary animals being subjected to other solitary animals 24/7 is NOT a part of life that ANY keeper would allow who cares about his animals!
Did they tell you they are used to it?
Does the female enjoy being an egg machine?

It's quite obvious how you feel about these snakes. Anyone who reads this thread knows alllllll about it!

 

[susang]

Messiah
You posted this on 9/14 Sex of Snakes....

So here is my story, I bought two corns snakes about 3 or more months apart a couple of years ago. One day I looked in the cage and noticed a batch of eggs (I got a breeding pair by accident) So I'm now on my 3rd batch (2 per Batch, 10+ eggs per batch) <--- hopefully that makes sense.

Anyways how can i tell which is the male and which is the female? One snake is considerably larger than the other??? I'm curious....

To this on 9/24
*What do you mean kinked, you think he came out too early? I didn't force him out or even touch the egg, matter of fact, I had to search for him in the main cage
*hmmm, scary.... I don't have an incubator, This is my 1st set since i've been in colorado.....
9/25/07
*No clue what GG's are, i'm guessing you mean eggs..... Here is what I do and have done for last 6 batches of eggs.... (i am in no way saying this is the correct method and I actually should have taken them to a pet store here in Colorado for him to incubate)

After eggs are laid I will take a smaller cage one of those mini carry cages and places bedding (aspen and dirt) and place the eggs in their... again its worked for the last 6 batches but this is my 1st year in Denver and it does get cold here compared to AZ where it was always HOT.....

once i have the mini cages filled with eggs and bedding I place it back into the cage and surround it with bedding inside the cage (my bedding is pretty thick) and wait for the eggs to hatch....

I do this because I BELIEVE AND SEEN the snakes cuddle/warm the eggs to keep them warm

To this most enlightening statement today:
Like i said before I took my snakes to the vet when they were young, i already have an idea which is the male and female but I wanted to be 100% sure

You say on one hand I know the sex-I took them to the vet to be sexed (who looked at them and determined from there look their sex)-to I knew what they were but I wanted conformation from a vet- Anyways how can i tell which is the male and which is the female?

lead me Oh! wise one.

 

[HaisseM]

Solitary animals being subjected to other solitary animals 24/7 is NOT a part of life that ANY keeper would allow who cares about his animals!
Did they tell you they are used to it?
Does the female enjoy being an egg machine?

It's quite obvious how you feel about these snakes. Anyone who reads this thread knows alllllll about it!

You act like my cage is only big enough for 1 snake and can only fit 1 snake... They have enough room to choose where they want to be and sometimes they chill together and something they don't One snake likes the hide, the other likes bury itself in the bedding. So unless you can prove to me, my snakes don't enjoy there current setup, then don't tell me they don't.

Again, do these little guilt ridden lines work anymore?