Could Tesseras Be Hybrids?

[dave partington]

Now, what I know about the origins of the Ultras:

Before it was revealed by the originator of the Ultra Mutants that a Gray Rat Snake was used to make the first ones, they were in commerce under the name of Ultra Hypo Corns (most were motleys). Simultaneously, Frosted Corns were also being advertised. The first "frosted" corns I purchased from Andy Barr were purported to be Gray Rat x Corn hybrids. After the release of Bill and Kathy Love's first book, I approached Andy, and asked why he was quoted as saying in the book that they were pure corns. That was when the Expo was in Orlando, and I recall him finally saying to me, "well some were and some were not". He said some were made from a Gray Snow (the final product of the hybrid crossing of a Snow Corn to a Gray Rat Snake) and some were from the pairing of a pure Snow Corn to one of the Ultra types. In so much as every time I bred my Frosted Corns to Amel Corns, I got 50% Ultramels and 50% Amels (the parallel results of breeding an Ultramel Corn to an Amel Corn), it was clear that the Frosted Corns possessed the same mutation as the Ultra types. Since Mike Shiver told me essentially the same story about the origin of the Ultra Hypos (that a Gray Rat was used in their creation), commonality of Frosted Corns and Ultra types was a foregone conclusion.

On one of Rich Z's popular corn snake chat forums back in the mid 1990s, it was discussed at length (surely those threads are archived) and in the final analyses, the forum participants unofficially decided that Mike Shiver had likely been upset about getting out of the corn snake business and had therefore falsely stated that a Gray Rat Snake was used in their creation. At that time, keepers and breeders of Ultra types either chose to ignore the testimonies of Mike and Andy - in favor of being able to declare that they were not hybrids - OR realized that by the time this discussion came up, many of us had bred Ultra types into hundreds of pure corns, and it was too late to rid out inventories of those mutant products. In essence, they chose to downplay the Hybrid Issue. So be it. It is difficult (if not impossible) to sway public opinion. Especially when some forum participants have the time to lobby their views on a regular and constant basis). ............................................. Ultra types were also labeled as hybrids from a sister species.
.............................................................. When I lived in California, more than one California King x Pacific Gopher were donated to the zoo, and most (if not all) were genuinely found in the wild. Geneticist will also tell you that the likelihood of mutations springing from the pairing of two different species (inter-species), is more likely than mutations derived from intra-species pairings. Mutants are mutants. In the wild or in captivity, mutants are rare. .................................... Look at Black Pine Snakes and Great Lakes Melanistic Garter Snakes? Very successful mutants, indeed.

PS, as Rich will tell you, once he was convinced that the Frosted Corns were hybrids (when he bought them, he was told they were pure corns), he sold me all of those snakes. I subsequently bred them, and except for the Amels of this line looking nothing like Amel Corns, all the non-Amels looked precisely like all the Ultramels and Ultramel Aneries in our hobby today. In typical hybrid fashion, their pheontypic diversity is VAST, but everyone would call the Frosted Ghosts I produced, ULTRAMEL ANERIES.

Don

Hey Don, Is this the old thread from 2004 you are referring to?

Regarding w/c intergrades, p19,

ecreipeoj 08-10-2004 10:17 AM
I received this email from Mike Falcon about the origins and approximate date that he had the wild caught Corn that started the Ultras. I requested that he send me a photo if he can find it. That would be sweet!


The original one look like a cross between a red and a yellow rat snake a was caught in Hillsborough county (Tampa). It had very little black and was very yellow.I might have a picture somewhere in the archives. Sometime in the early 90's is my best guess. The one thing I do recall is the males are always nicer and more brightly colored than the females.
Hope this helps....

I am guessing then that if a w/c naturally occurring inter-species cross exists, it is natural, not man-made, and therefore not really a hybrid, as the two are closely related both genetically and geographically inhabiting the same area and both desperate for a quick romanceless sordid affair these w/c intergrades occur? I remember being with my dad as a young teenager -finding wild greenish obsoletas along the top ridge of a mountain in NC where the natural ranges of yellow ratsnakes and black ratsnakes overlap.

Back to the linked old thread, it looks to me like (and please correct me if I am incorrect), that a few different natural and man-made crosses resulted in new-at-their-time forms of a hypo-like gene being brought into the cornsnake trade. And that during this time, this/these genes, even if possibly all different, were all considered or called or thought of as "Ultra"?
But some breeders recognized them as hybrids, if the gene/s were homozygously expressed. But if there were no obvious outside signs of the gene being expressed, then they were considered to be non-ultra's? So the ultra gene could still be hanging out in a lot of current breeders stock, just waiting for the right crossing to be made, to appear sometimes (the drop of milk in the pool)? The last posts of p26 seem to drag caramel into the mystery of ultra. Hope I don't regret kicking an old hornets nest.
Thanks for sharing,
dave

 

[Tom Tuttle]

I'm surprised at how many people are breeding ultra/ ultramel into their Tesseras. :shrugs:

 

[SODERBERGD]

Hybrid Defined . . .

Hey Don, Is this the old thread from 2004 you are referring to?

Regarding w/c intergrades, p19,


I am guessing then that if a w/c naturally occurring inter-species cross exists, it is natural, not man-made, and therefore not really a hybrid, as the two are closely related both genetically and geographically inhabiting the same area and both desperate for a quick romanceless sordid affair these w/c intergrades occur? I remember being with my dad as a young teenager -finding wild greenish obsoletas along the top ridge of a mountain in NC where the natural ranges of yellow ratsnakes and black ratsnakes overlap.

Back to the linked old thread, it looks to me like (and please correct me if I am incorrect), that a few different natural and man-made crosses resulted in new-at-their-time forms of a hypo-like gene being brought into the cornsnake trade. And that during this time, this/these genes, even if possibly all different, were all considered or called or thought of as "Ultra"?
But some breeders recognized them as hybrids, if the gene/s were homozygously expressed. But if there were no obvious outside signs of the gene being expressed, then they were considered to be non-ultra's? So the ultra gene could still be hanging out in a lot of current breeders stock, just waiting for the right crossing to be made, to appear sometimes (the drop of milk in the pool)? The last posts of p26 seem to drag caramel into the mystery of ultra. Hope I don't regret kicking an old hornets nest.
Thanks for sharing,
dave

My opinion:
In Reptile Herpetoculture, we use the word HYBRID to suit its most pertinent meaning. Generally speaking hybrid actually refers to the product of the pairing of any two animals, but we use the meaning that applies to the products of two different species (regardless of how closely they are related). They would not be distinct species' (by human knowledge standards) if they were closely related enough to have distinct DNA. Hence, for instance, even though Yellow Rat Snakes routinely breed with Black Rats where their natural ranges overlap, at this time, the product of such unions are considered hybrids.

The products of two different sub species are sometimes referred to as Intergrades, but in the interest of cornsnake genetic purity, we should use the word hybrid to denote products from pairings other than cornsnake x cornsnake.

 

[DMong]

My opinion:
In Reptile Herpetoculture, we use the word HYBRID to suit its most pertinent meaning. Generally speaking hybrid actually refers to the product of the pairing of any two animals, but we use the meaning that applies to the products of two different species (regardless of how closely they are related). They would not be distinct species' (by human knowledge standards) if they were closely related enough to have distinct DNA. Hence, for instance, even though Yellow Rat Snakes routinely breed with Black Rats where their natural ranges overlap, at this time, the product of such unions are considered hybrids.

The products of two different sub species are sometimes referred to as Intergrades, but in the interest of cornsnake genetic purity, we should use the word hybrid to denote products from pairings other than cornsnake x cornsnake.

Hi Don,.....

I don't consider naturally occurring Black Rat x Yellow Rat where their ranges naturally overlap(for example Horry County where Jim Godfrey lives) anything other than naturally occurring intergrades. This is all absolutlely fine and dandy as far as I'm concerned too because it is a wonderful and very natural part of the dynamics of this planet's natural animal history and evolution. However, if a breeder does this cross on a whim with just any pair of Yellow x Black Rat in his/her snake room, I look at these much more like hybrids because all that immediately accomplished was to "muddy-up" any real distinctness of either genuine subspecies and makes them FAR more indistinguishable down the line.

In other words, all this does is make more undiscernable stuff for the hobby to misidentify and mix up even more..LOL!

I also very much DO agree with your last paragraph quote. :spinner:



~Doug