Could Tesseras Be Hybrids?

[NikeMoth]

Jeff,.......I personally do not own a Tessera here at my place at the present moment, but I have looked at MANY detailed close up shots of lots of Tesseras and the scalation keys-out 100% true cornsnake, not Cal. king or even Garter Snake..LOL! (sarcasm).

The cornsnake has 27 or 29 scale rows at mid-body, while the Cal. king has 23 or 25 at mid-body. Also, I would challenge anyone to see if the anal plate is anything other than divided on their Tessera corns as well on top of everything else mentioned.

Anyone can speculate anything really, but to think a Tessera is anything other than a genuinely authentic cornsnake is ridiculous in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong though, I am the FIRST to agree that there are hybrids and countless types of weird man-made crosses in this hobby than ever before, but the Tessera corn isn't one of them.............period!



cheers, ~Doug

How many scales does a Leopard Rat Snake have at mid-body?

 

[Shiari]

Let's see... we've already determined that nothing of that extremely different head pattern has shown up, and there's the fact that ALL of the leopard ratsnakes have black ventral scales with small white checks along the edges. And based on pictures I've been able to find and vaguely count, the number is the same as with a corn snake.

Soooo.... why are you so determined to say this morph is the result of hybridisation, Nike?

 

[Rich Z]

Who knows what may be knocking about in corn genes. Look at the Ultramels, many people assumed they were pure, but they are hybrids. That horse is miles out of the barn now that they have been breed into all kinds of stuff.

I know Don lists them as a Inter-species Hybrid, but most people don't. Ultra/Ultramel via South Mountain Reptiles.

So who is this "founder (discoverer)" of the Ultra gene? I got my Ultras (which he termed "Ultra Hypo" at the time) from Mike Falcon, who I thought WAS the original source of this line, and he swore up and down that they were not a hybrid. His claim was that the original animal was an odd looking wild caught corn that he at first thought MIGHT be a naturally occuring intergrade, but then later on decided it was not.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

I'm not sure who Don attributes the foundering too. A group of us talked about hybrid mixes at one point, then I read more about it on Don's site. No names ever came up.

From Don's site directly-

The founder (discoverer) of the Ultra mutation states that he originally paired a gray rat snake with a corn snake, in the discovery of this mutation.

EDIT- Let me dig around and see if I have any emails still from the folks I was talking with.

 

[DMong]

Let's see... we've already determined that nothing of that extremely different head pattern has shown up, and there's the fact that ALL of the leopard ratsnakes have black ventral scales with small white checks along the edges. And based on pictures I've been able to find and vaguely count, the number is the same as with a corn snake.

Soooo.... why are you so determined to say this morph is the result of hybridisation, Nike?

My thoughts exactly Shiari...........it is much easier to sit back and have other people come up with the reasons to explain/defend why it "isn't" a hybrid of any of these other snakes than it is to know, understand and do the meristic/mensural data of their morphology to know that it isn't a hybrid of any sort. :shrugs:

To Nike:

Here are some of the scale meristics for the Leopard Ratsnake Z. situla (formerly E. situla) is as follows........

Leopard Rat scale Counts:

ventrals: 215-255

subcaudals: 54-92

dorsals: 25-27

Cornsnake scale counts:

ventrals: 203-245

subcaudals: 47-84

dorsals: 23-29


California kingsnake scale counts:

ventrals: 213-255

subcaudals: 44-63

dorsals: 23-25

supralabials: 7-8

infralabials: 9-10

Without having me post all of the precise scalation meristics of every single snake known to man, I would propose that others tell me exactly why it IS a hybrid instead. I and some others have shown numerous details as to why it ISN'T! :spinner:

Where are the goofy looking normal offspring from any of the Tessera clutches if they were hybrids?, nevermind the Tessera phenotype itself????.....................hmmm???? ..LOL!!

 

[DMong]

I'm not sure who Don attributes the foundering too. A group of us talked about hybrid mixes at one point, then I read more about it on Don's site. No names ever came up.

From Don's site directly-


EDIT- Let me dig around and see if I have any emails still from the folks I was talking with.

Was Mike Falcon and Mike Shivers that originally did it.

Don Soderberg actually changed his site text to include the ultra/ultramels as originating from known hybrid crosses with the "white oak" phase Gray ratsnake. After I explained that they were on another site to a poster that was asking me about them. So just afterwards when a very known forum trouble maker/disruptor created all sorts of flack for me and later about Don and others that know this to be true as well, Don got wind of the thread and chimed-in and posted that he was going to state that they originally started out as such on his site because he was tired of all the bickering and rants regarding it...........and there you have it!

Joe Pierce, KJ Lodrigue, Don Soderberg and many others know this to be a true as well. I have read very direct quotes from the very source stating this to be the case a good while back.



~Doug

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Thanks for clearing that up Doug. I knew I had talked with a few people, but honestly had no idea the founding names. I'm glad Don has that information out there for people to see about gray rat being in the foundation.

If we know something was crossed with a corn at some point, people should have that information and be able to judge for themselves on including in it their lines.

Now this...

Where are the goofy looking normal offspring from any of the Tessera clutches if they were hybrids?, nevermind the Tessera phenotype itself????.....................hmmm???? ..LOL!!

I have personally seen some weird Tessera siblings. Not sure what they indicate, but they exist. The ones I saw had more leanings toward a possible super form, but they were very bizarre not normal by any means.

 

[Susan]

Just curious...if the ultra gene originated in gray ratsnakes, what are "ultra gray ratsnakes" called? Are they the white oak gray rats?

 

[dave partington]

AFAIK ultra was derived from the white oak phase.

The appearance similarities between yellow ratsnakes, motley pattern corns, trans pecos ratsnakes, and let's toss caramel corns in-
have always made me wonder a bit- I'd gander a guess that if all snakes had some common ancestors, a few million years back, or just a few hundred thousand years back, that it wouldn't be much of a stretch to imagine that some patterns and colors might re-appear from time to time, even on different continents. Or to put it another way, parallel evolution/intelligent design, can be seen in the very similar green tree python & the emerald tree boa. If a design/pattern/color works in one place to the benefit of a local population of any species, why would it not work in other places as well.

 

[DMong]

Just curious...if the ultra gene originated in gray ratsnakes, what are "ultra gray ratsnakes" called? Are they the white oak gray rats?

Hi Susan,.......

Well, I'm not so sure the actual ultra "gene" itself is necessarily the very same thing in all of the so-called white oak Gray ratsnakes ever found. But apparently the hybrid combination that was paired up on that particular original breeding had something unique going on.

I have heard many speculate over the years that the very light 'white oak" forms of Gray rat might very well be a form of hypomelanism, and not just a lighter clinal variant found in north/central Florida as well as the apalachicola panhandle area, but I can't personally say myself because I have never done any breeding trials with any Grays before to prove if any of this holds any water or not. I don't recall ever really seeing much in the way of any weird translucence in the dark areas in them though.

It sure would be interesting to find out if any previous Gray rat breedings did behave anything like the way the ultra/ultramels seem to. But I don't think one would see much of anything odd in a Gray to Gray breeding unless it was crossed into something else like it was in this case. I think it would probably just make more lighter Gray rats unless it was combined with something else..LOL!

Jim Kavney of "Hiss-N-Things" out of Islamorada used to work with quite a few white oaks years ago, but he has long since gotten out of it since his wife passed away some years ago.

I just don't know about what the majority of actual white oak Gray Rat's actually are genetically (if anything). I always basically thought of them as a clinal variant, but who knows.



~Doug

 

[dave partington]

So who is this "founder (discoverer)" of the Ultra gene? I got my Ultras (which he termed "Ultra Hypo" at the time) from Mike Falcon, who I thought WAS the original source of this line, and he swore up and down that they were not a hybrid. His claim was that the original animal was an odd looking wild caught corn that he at first thought MIGHT be a naturally occuring intergrade, but then later on decided it was not.

Perhaps you meant Mike Shiver?
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-13526.html
Yes, I heard, in person, the story of him recanting the origin of Ultra.
Here's a few more posts about that
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=b8ee8fa5ecb9669a

 

[Crazy Colubrids]

Would you classify my Grey Rat as a "White Oak" phase?

 

[Tom Tuttle]

Rusty

I do not believe that Tessera is hybrid at all. It took awhile to locate these photo's of an ultramel homo butter/ het anery 50% gray rat that I got from Joni Garcia. Carol produced him a long time ago. You can absolutely see the hybrid markers.

 

[Nanci]

Can you elaborate, Tom? I see a different saddle shape, somewhat like cinder. Maybe his nose looks a little short and square, and his head marking seems indistinct. And the saddle borders seem incomplete. I don't know if any of that is significant.

 

[Tom Tuttle]

Can you elaborate, Tom? I see a different saddle shape, somewhat like cinder. Maybe his nose looks a little short and square, and his head marking seems indistinct. And the saddle borders seem incomplete. I don't know if any of that is significant.

Look at the head shape, The proportions of the body, the heavier keeled scales.

 

[DMong]

Perhaps you meant Mike Shiver?
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-13526.html
Yes, I heard, in person, the story of him recanting the origin of Ultra.
Here's a few more posts about that
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=b8ee8fa5ecb9669a

Yes, Falcon mentions that he got his from Mike Shiver, and they were said to be non-feeders that he got going and raised up. As you already probably know, there is a good portion of this stuff in all of my saved history/stories on these that tends to imply that there were a couple different lines, one hybrid, and one not. Similar to a firing squad not knowing exactly who has the blank or the real bullets. And now we have thousands of hobbyists that are probably wondering which one's in the "firing squad" they might happen to be...LOL!

All I can say is that it is like the old TV "Tootsie-Pop" commercial with the kid and Mr. Owl who says............ "the world may never know"..HAHA!!


~Doug

 

[DMong]

Would you classify my Grey Rat as a "White Oak" phase?

I would say that specimen probably constitutes a very nice example of what the so-called "white oak" phase Gray Rats are.
But don't ask me if it would produce any ultra/ultramels when bred to a corn, because I haven't the slightest clue. Could be that only the original ones had this weird gene for all I know.



cheers, ~Doug

 

[Crazy Colubrids]

I would say that specimen probably constitutes a very nice example of what the so-called "white oak" phase Gray Rats are.
But don't ask me if it would produce any ultra/ultramels when bred to a corn, because I haven't the slightest clue. Could be that only the original ones had this weird gene for all I know.



cheers, ~Doug

I may just try and breed him to a amel or snow next year and see what happens. I have a good feeling that all I will get is Normal frosted corns.

 

[NikeMoth]

Let's see... we've already determined that nothing of that extremely different head pattern has shown up, and there's the fact that ALL of the leopard ratsnakes have black ventral scales with small white checks along the edges. And based on pictures I've been able to find and vaguely count, the number is the same as with a corn snake.

Soooo.... why are you so determined to say this morph is the result of hybridisation, Nike?

My thoughts exactly Shiari...........it is much easier to sit back and have other people come up with the reasons to explain/defend why it "isn't" a hybrid of any of these other snakes than it is to know, understand and do the meristic/mensural data of their morphology to know that it isn't a hybrid of any sort. :shrugs:
Without having me post all of the precise scalation meristics of every single snake known to man, I would propose that others tell me exactly why it IS a hybrid instead. I and some others have shown numerous details as to why it ISN'T! :spinner:
Where are the goofy looking normal offspring from any of the Tessera clutches if they were hybrids?, nevermind the Tessera phenotype itself????.....................hmmm???? ..LOL!!

Ask, and ye shall receive . . .:twohammer

Reasons Why Tesseras Might Be Hybrids
• The Tessera mutation could not be tracked back to its source (the very first Corn with the mutation). The original three snakes identified as possessing the Tessera gene were purchased from an online classifieds page. Do you believe everything you see advertised?

• Cornsnake.net, one of the original Tessera producers, mentions that “many of the non-mutant siblings of Tessera types seem to have enhanced pattern and color features.” This implies that more than one gene is involved in the production of Tesseras, which would not be seen in a single point mutation in Corn Snakes.

• The scale meristics of Leopard Rat Snakes and Corn Snakes are nearly identical, rendering scale counts useless as hybrid markers. (Thanks for providing the info, DMong!)

• Leopard Rat Snakes and Corn Snakes are approximately the same size.

• Both Corn Snakes and Leopard Rat Snakes have been known to hybridize with other species.

• Cornsnake.net also mentioned wide variations in the belly patterns of Tesseras, ranging from normal Corn checkering to zero belly checkering. This could be due to variance in Tessera gene expression, the influence of multiple genes, or Leopard Rat Snake influence. Some Leopard Rat Snakes have white bellies or white bellies with black checkers.

• The distinctive Leopard Rat Snake head coloration could be the result of a single gene which could have been bred out of any hybrids by subsequent crossings with Corn Snakes.

Since the majority opinion is that Tesseras aren’t hybrids, I’ll play devil’s advocate and offer a scenario where they might be.:dgrin:

1. In this hypothetical situation, a Leopard Rat Snake is crossed to a Corn Snake (pick your favorite morph). The offspring of this pairing would be heterozygous both for the Leopard “Mask” and the Tessera gene (assuming the Mask is due to a single gene).

2. Take one of the hybrids and breed it to another Corn. The resulting hatchlings would have a fifty percent chance of carrying either the Mask gene or the Tessera gene and a twenty-five percent chance of carrying them both. There would also be a twenty-five percent chance that each hatchling would be carrying the Tessera gene but would not be carrying the Mask gene.

3. The probability at this point that an individual would randomly select three Tessera gene carriers that do not carry the Mask gene is 1.56%, which isn’t very high (though this is exactly the same percentage likelihood of a person having six male children in a row, and I’m friendly with a man who is the proud father of SEVEN). However . . .

4. The probability of selecting a Tessera carrier lacking the Mask gene from step two is fifty percent. If such a snake were bred to another Corn, the offspring would be fifty percent carriers of the Tessera gene and ZERO percent carriers of the mask gene, therefore eliminating any possibility of creating odd-looking hatchlings down the road and would breed true just like any other Corn morph.

For the record, I never said that Tesseras had to be hybrids. I said that they could be hybrids.:duck:

 

[DMong]

1) If a Leopard Rat was part of the equation, it wouldn't be "masked". As I mentioned before, the unique Leopard Rat phenotype (namely the HEAD) would indeed show up in individuals in given clutches of offspring from time to time, and that has not happened to date.

2) I don't know of ANY European x corn crosses ever done thus far. And IF it were successfully done, it would have initially been an exciting and celebrated milestone for hybridizers all over the world and NOT been kept under the carpet and sold off as everyday striped corns online..LOL!!

All this is great to imagine, but just these TWO points I mentioned proves to me that the theory doesn't hold one single drop of water whatsoever in actuality, nevermind all the rest of the logic that has been stated......JUST THOSE TWO THINGS ALONE!!!


~Doug