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Could Tesseras Be Hybrids?

I've noticed that a couple of my babies (both Tessera & Normal sibling) have what resembles "het Sunkissed" markers, on the head. (I have a het Sunkissed baby that's not a Tessera line that has the same type of markings).

The sire was an Okeetee Tessera, & the dam was a WC Alabama.

While I have no proof that Tessera's are not hybrid, I personally doubt they are.
I think there's other factors involved, that would explain the enhanced patterns & colors on the Normal siblings.
This is my first year working with them, but I plan on working with the Tessera gene for a while.
I have Tessera & Normal siblings held back for future breeding projects, which does include seeing what the "X" head pattern might be doing in the Tessera line, for example. I'd like to try & find out where the Motley-ish look comes from (in the Normal siblings), the Sunkissed marker type markings & the Aztec type markings comes from (I've seen all of these in the Normal siblings in the Tessera clutches that Tara & I produced this past year.)
Every one of my Tessera clutch babies looks Normal Corn to me (meaning no obvious hybrid markers).
 
Hi Susan,.......

Well, I'm not so sure the actual ultra "gene" itself is necessarily the very same thing in all of the so-called white oak Gray ratsnakes ever found. But apparently the hybrid combination that was paired up on that particular original breeding had something unique going on.

I have heard many speculate over the years that the very light 'white oak" forms of Gray rat might very well be a form of hypomelanism, and not just a lighter clinal variant found in north/central Florida as well as the apalachicola panhandle area, but I can't personally say myself because I have never done any breeding trials with any Grays before to prove if any of this holds any water or not. I don't recall ever really seeing much in the way of any weird translucence in the dark areas in them though.

It sure would be interesting to find out if any previous Gray rat breedings did behave anything like the way the ultra/ultramels seem to. But I don't think one would see much of anything odd in a Gray to Gray breeding unless it was crossed into something else like it was in this case. I think it would probably just make more lighter Gray rats unless it was combined with something else..LOL!

Jim Kavney of "Hiss-N-Things" out of Islamorada used to work with quite a few white oaks years ago, but he has long since gotten out of it since his wife passed away some years ago.

I just don't know about what the majority of actual white oak Gray Rat's actually are genetically (if anything). I always basically thought of them as a clinal variant, but who knows.



~Doug

I thought I had heard that the "ultra" gene had not been found/isolated in any rat snake species other than corn snakes, which was the reason I asked. As mentioned briefly in this thread, I also had heard that there was at least one other pairing besides the one with the gray rat that produced ultras. And since it so far appears that the ultra gene has only been seen in corn snakes (or corn snake/gray rat "hybrids"), I personally believe, until proven otherwise, that the ultra mutation at least originated in the corn snake half of those original pairings. And we can't prove that the ultra gene hasn't turned up in some collections without coming from that original pairing.

Yes, I'm sure there is non-pure corn lineage in anything ultra, but I also believe that better than 50% of ALL corn snakes have a little non-corn lineage in there somewhere and even the "purists" can't be 100% positive that their stock didn't have a gray or black rat in the line 50 generations ago. The fact alone that all these hybrids of rat, king and milk species are fertile and capable of reproduction with other hybrids as well as other "pure" species proves that North American colubrids are much more closely related genetically or otherwise than what most people view different species. Human genetics/DNA and chimpanzee genetics/DNA are supposed to be so very close that it's only a small section that is different. But I sure haven't heard of any hybrids of those. And you know darn good and well that they've tried it in some lab somewhere, probably the one in Area 51!
 
02262011random011-1.jpg


Not a great pic, but one is a suspected cross, the other a locality Oke.

Hey Tom, could those points you made be attributed to natural variation?
 
Perhaps you meant Mike Shiver?
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-13526.html
Yes, I heard, in person, the story of him recanting the origin of Ultra.
Here's a few more posts about that
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=b8ee8fa5ecb9669a

No, I meant Mike Falcon, as I stated. However, I did buy my original GoldDusts (which he was incorrectly identifying as "Ambers" at the time) from Mike Shiver, and I also heavily interrogated him about the ancestry of those animals. He also swore up and down that they were pure corns.

Quite frankly when someone tells two completely opposite stories, the only safe course to take in respect to their entire credibility is to discount EVERYTHING they have said. In my opinion, I believe that some of Shiver's "recantation" might just be sour grapes that he missed the boat on the GoldDusts thinking they were just a brighter form of Amber (Hypo Caramel). He COULD have had something unique that he had the corner market on, but it slipped through his fingers before he realized what he had. It just seemed highly suspicious to me that his "recantation" came AFTER that fact became obvious, and in my opinion was designed to lessen the pain of his error. All just supposition and opinion on my part, of course. But from what I have seen, someone doesn't tell just ONE lie.

I bred LOTS of animals out of the Ultra and GoldDust line that I had, and at NO point did I see any evidence that made me feel uncomfortable with the ancestry of those animals.

Now there was a third party involved in all this stuff, who I just can't remember his name at this point, also in that Tampa area. Andy "something", I believe. I met him at one of the Tampa shows, and he had a lot of interesting animals on his table. But he had a dividing line between them. One group was composed of some hybridized animals, and the other group were corns that were not hybrids, according to him. So I bought a few of the non-hybrid animals that he was calling "Frosted", as they were very interesting looking. But after working with them for a while, I became convinced that they were, indeed, hybrids, and as such I sold them off. And yes, I DID tell the buyer my suspicions about them.
 
I thought I had heard that the "ultra" gene had not been found/isolated in any rat snake species other than corn snakes, which was the reason I asked. As mentioned briefly in this thread, I also had heard that there was at least one other pairing besides the one with the gray rat that produced ultras. And since it so far appears that the ultra gene has only been seen in corn snakes (or corn snake/gray rat "hybrids"), I personally believe, until proven otherwise, that the ultra mutation at least originated in the corn snake half of those original pairings. And we can't prove that the ultra gene hasn't turned up in some collections without coming from that original pairing.

Yes, I'm sure there is non-pure corn lineage in anything ultra, but I also believe that better than 50% of ALL corn snakes have a little non-corn lineage in there somewhere and even the "purists" can't be 100% positive that their stock didn't have a gray or black rat in the line 50 generations ago. The fact alone that all these hybrids of rat, king and milk species are fertile and capable of reproduction with other hybrids as well as other "pure" species proves that North American colubrids are much more closely related genetically or otherwise than what most people view different species. Human genetics/DNA and chimpanzee genetics/DNA are supposed to be so very close that it's only a small section that is different. But I sure haven't heard of any hybrids of those. And you know darn good and well that they've tried it in some lab somewhere, probably the one in Area 51!

This is a very interesting point. Here's an official definition of "species":
Biology . the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.
*emphasis added*

Since it is known for a FACT that MANY species AND genera of snakes can successfully breed together and produce viable offspring, what does this say then about that definition and our understanding of speciation? We're not talking about simply different SPECIES breeding together in snakes, we are talking about different GENERA breeding together! So do biological definitions and rules NOT apply in relation to snakes?
 
BTW, here's a pic of one of those "frosted corns" I got from that guy Andy...

frosty1.jpg
 
No, I meant Mike Falcon, as I stated. However, I did buy my original GoldDusts (which he was incorrectly identifying as "Ambers" at the time) from Mike Shiver, and I also heavily interrogated him about the ancestry of those animals. He also swore up and down that they were pure corns.

Quite frankly when someone tells two completely opposite stories, the only safe course to take in respect to their entire credibility is to discount EVERYTHING they have said. In my opinion, I believe that some of Shiver's "recantation" might just be sour grapes that he missed the boat on the GoldDusts thinking they were just a brighter form of Amber (Hypo Caramel). He COULD have had something unique that he had the corner market on, but it slipped through his fingers before he realized what he had. It just seemed highly suspicious to me that his "recantation" came AFTER that fact became obvious, and in my opinion was designed to lessen the pain of his error. All just supposition and opinion on my part, of course. But from what I have seen, someone doesn't tell just ONE lie.

I bred LOTS of animals out of the Ultra and GoldDust line that I had, and at NO point did I see any evidence that made me feel uncomfortable with the ancestry of those animals.

Now there was a third party involved in all this stuff, who I just can't remember his name at this point, also in that Tampa area. Andy "something", I believe. I met him at one of the Tampa shows, and he had a lot of interesting animals on his table. But he had a dividing line between them. One group was composed of some hybridized animals, and the other group were corns that were not hybrids, according to him. So I bought a few of the non-hybrid animals that he was calling "Frosted", as they were very interesting looking. But after working with them for a while, I became convinced that they were, indeed, hybrids, and as such I sold them off. And yes, I DID tell the buyer my suspicions about them.

Rich,......

Yeah, that was the well-known hybridizer.. Andy Barr. Falcon split his group with him shortly after some of those breedings.

And yep!,.....also the so-called "frosted" corns were another big "snow-job".





~Doug
 
This is a very interesting point. Here's an official definition of "species":

Biology . the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

*emphasis added*

Since it is known for a FACT that MANY species AND genera of snakes can successfully breed together and produce viable offspring, what does this say then about that definition and our understanding of speciation? We're not talking about simply different SPECIES breeding together in snakes, we are talking about different GENERA breeding together! So do biological definitions and rules NOT apply in relation to snakes?

Exactly! What we know happens in snakes goes against everything we have been taught. One day, I would love to sit in on a lecture by a well-known and respected biologist, top of his/her field and then see how they explain why we have thayeri X cali king X pueblan milksnake X corn snake hatchlings.
 
Well what about ligers? Just because they can produce offspring doesnt mean that they aren't different species. It also has to do with population overlaps. If they dont encounter each other in a natural setting, they wont breed (or attempt to). And eventually, over a very long period of time, will no longer be able to hybridize. There are all sorts of interesting cases of hybridization between separate species (human created ones).
 
I think (as the story goes) it was Andy Barr.

It was Andy Barr Chris. I mentioned this a couple times in my earlier posts. This was a direct quote from Mike Falcon himself after he said that he bred a Gray Rat to a snowcorn.

Anyway, it's all water under the proverbial bridge at this point anyway as everyone already knows.


later, ~Doug
 
I didn't read all of the posts but can't you use scale counts to tell if a snake is a hybrid or not?

No, not always. Only if they don't fall well within the meristic range of a described species or subspecies. Because there can be variation in many scale counts that would be very inconclusive. For example, a cornsnake "usually" has 25 or 27 scale rows at mid-body, but can rarely have as few as 23 and as many as 29. You have to take into account ALL the scalation counts from all over the body, then it can help deduct one way or another in most cases. It really all depends on alot of factors. Sometimes a corn specimen can even have a fused single anal plate, and not be devided as most are, but it is very uncommon.

Also, if the other suspected type of snake involved in any given hybridization or cross has similar scalation, and overlaps within the spcifications of the other animal, nothing can be proven by scalation alone there either. Some single things CAN prove with certainty, and other won't. Sometimes you have to take many different things into account.

Say if a guy told me his Mexican Black kingsnake(L.g.nigrita was in fact a Black milksnake(L.t. gaigeae). I could instantly distinguish which was which by scale counts at mid-body, skin color between the scales, throat pattern(if any)and other tell-tale features.

Black milk scale rows at mid-body... 19

Mexican Black king............... 23 or 25

I did this identification for a guy about a week or so ago with some good photos he sent me, and it was beyond a shadow of a doubt 100% MBK, not a Black milk. He was amazed at all these different things I pointed out to him to conclude this with 100% certainty.



~Doug
 
Regarding the Ultra Mutation . . .

First, let me say that I don't have time right now to address the questions about Leopard Rats marrying Corns, but I can tell you from having seen rat snake hybrids for over 35 years now, there are ALWAYS throw-backs. Progeny that tattle on the minor representative pheontype from the original gene donor. I was the first to reproduce these snakes, and the first to identify the heritability. Since then, I have produced over 500 of them, and have never seen one with any resemblance to Leopard Rats (primarily, the head pattern).


Now, what I know about the origins of the Ultras:

Before it was revealed by the originator of the Ultra Mutants that a Gray Rat Snake was used to make the first ones, they were in commerce under the name of Ultra Hypo Corns (most were motleys). Simultaneously, Frosted Corns were also being advertised. The first "frosted" corns I purchased from Andy Barr were purported to be Gray Rat x Corn hybrids. After the release of Bill and Kathy Love's first book, I approached Andy, and asked why he was quoted as saying in the book that they were pure corns. That was when the Expo was in Orlando, and I recall him finally saying to me, "well some were and some were not". He said some were made from a Gray Snow (the final product of the hybrid crossing of a Snow Corn to a Gray Rat Snake) and some were from the pairing of a pure Snow Corn to one of the Ultra types. In so much as every time I bred my Frosted Corns to Amel Corns, I got 50% Ultramels and 50% Amels (the parallel results of breeding an Ultramel Corn to an Amel Corn), it was clear that the Frosted Corns possessed the same mutation as the Ultra types. Since Mike Shiver told me essentially the same story about the origin of the Ultra Hypos (that a Gray Rat was used in their creation), commonality of Frosted Corns and Ultra types was a foregone conclusion.

On one of Rich Z's popular corn snake chat forums back in the mid 1990s, it was discussed at length (surely those threads are archived) and in the final analyses, the forum participants unofficially decided that Mike Shiver had likely been upset about getting out of the corn snake business and had therefore falsely stated that a Gray Rat Snake was used in their creation. At that time, keepers and breeders of Ultra types either chose to ignore the testimonies of Mike and Andy - in favor of being able to declare that they were not hybrids - OR realized that by the time this discussion came up, many of us had bred Ultra types into hundreds of pure corns, and it was too late to rid out inventories of those mutant products. In essence, they chose to downplay the Hybrid Issue. So be it. It is difficult (if not impossible) to sway public opinion. Especially when some forum participants have the time to lobby their views on a regular and constant basis). Meantime, I was still saying they were hybrids, until one day when a customer that was interested in buying one said to me, "I wasn't aware that the SMR Ultra types were hybrids, so I'm buying mine from so-and-so who has pure Ultra types". That was when I stopped advertising that they were hybrids, but everyone who ended up ordering one from me was told by me that they were hybrids. The facts seemed to blur with time, but every time I was involved in any thread about Ultra types, I made it a point to remind that they were not pure corns. Each time I did, it seemed that a new generation of forum frequenters were present, and had little or no knowledge of their alien origins. When I rolled out my new web site, I decided to make it abundantly clear that they were not pure corns, so just as I label Creamsicles as Inter-species hybrids between Emory's Rats and Corns, Ultra types were also labeled as hybrids from a sister species.

One thread even posed the challenge that since the originator of this mutation said he used a White Oak phase of Gray Rat Snake, someone should breed a wild-caught Gray Rat with an Amel Corn to see what happens. I was always comically amused at this line of thinking, which seems to have presumed that ALL Gray Rat Snakes possess this mutation? OR all White Oak Gray Rats (which is only a phase - not locality) would carry the mutation. To me, that's like saying since the first albino corn was discovered in NC, all corns in NC are het for Amel.

Do any of us really know the origins of the mutants of any species for sure? Unless we were there to see the first pairing, how could we? Add to that the fact that so many captive corns have escaped or been intentionally released in the wild, how can we even really know the origins of corns we personally catct in the wild? Sure, it's logical to presume that a corn snake we capture far from a city (or corn snake breeder) does not possess any alien genes derived from captive-breeding, but anyone that's worked at a zoo knows of (or has seen) Natural hybrids. When I lived in California, more than one California King x Pacific Gopher were donated to the zoo, and most (if not all) were genuinely found in the wild. Geneticist will also tell you that the likelihood of mutations springing from the pairing of two different species (inter-species), is more likely than mutations derived from intra-species pairings. Mutants are mutants. In the wild or in captivity, mutants are rare. Perhaps more prevalent in captivity, since unlike their wild counterparts, captively-produced corns are not exposed to the predators that prey upon corn snakes in the wild. Surely, countless thousands of mutants have hatched in the wild over the past mellenia, but the appearance of most of them were so unsuccessful, their full genetic potential never entered the gene pools. Fortunately, most mutant heterozygotes are successful in the wild, in that their phenotypes are virtually identical to their nominate forms, and therefore, ideally suited for survival in their natural habitats. It is for this reason, some corn snake mutations are still found in the wild. Some are even more successful than their nominate form, and thrive among their wild gene pools; i.e. Anerythristic Corns. Look at Black Pine Snakes and Great Lakes Melanistic Garter Snakes? Very successful mutants, indeed.

PS, as Rich will tell you, once he was convinced that the Frosted Corns were hybrids (when he bought them, he was told they were pure corns), he sold me all of those snakes. I subsequently bred them, and except for the Amels of this line looking nothing like Amel Corns, all the non-Amels looked precisely like all the Ultramels and Ultramel Aneries in our hobby today. In typical hybrid fashion, their pheontypic diversity is VAST, but everyone would call the Frosted Ghosts I produced, ULTRAMEL ANERIES.

Don
 
Thanks for the bit of logic there Don. Ultimately, it comes down to what we label the snake's 'species' and in the long run, it's really irrelevent. It's interesting how people get so heated about a topic like this when we REALLY don't know where many of our morphs originated from... Wild caught... sure; did you meet the grandparents?
You know my opinion about it. Ultimately we have a gorgeous morph which adds beauty and uniqueness to our snakes. We cannot trace the lineages...
Drop of milk in a swimming pool!
 
Thanks for the input Don!
I agree with the thought that we cannot guarantee "purity" in WC Corns.
My WC Alabama female produced some awesome looking babies when paired with a Tessera last year. Included in those babies were three Aztec looking babies, which to my knowledge, has not been seen before, in Tessera clutches. Some of the babies (both Tessera & Normal siblings) have what some have called possible het Sunkissed markers. How could that be? Does my female have something going on that occured in the wild? Who knows? I know that the other Tessera clutch from the same male did not produce the same types of markings.

I certainly plan on trying to figure it out, continuing to work with the Tessera gene.

I'm certainly no expert, but IMHO, I do not think they're hybrids. They do have something cool going on, though, that is for sure!

I will add, that even if someone did come out & prove that they were, it would not change my opinion on them.
I am very happy that I have had the opportunity to start working with them.
 
Concur, Tara . . .

Thanks for the bit of logic there Don. Ultimately, it comes down to what we label the snake's 'species' and in the long run, it's really irrelevent. It's interesting how people get so heated about a topic like this when we REALLY don't know where many of our morphs originated from... Wild caught... sure; did you meet the grandparents?
You know my opinion about it. Ultimately we have a gorgeous morph which adds beauty and uniqueness to our snakes. We cannot trace the lineages...
Drop of milk in a swimming pool!

Yes, Tara, sometimes it's about the forgotten and invisible drop of milk in the swimming pool.

I DO understand the hybrid concerns. Predictability in corn snake morphs is greater when only one species is involved. I will not knowingly sell new hybrids on my web site. The only reason the Ultra types and Creamsicles are there is because the Creams were not considered hybrids when first created (as Rich says, hybrid's ultimately just a word) and the Ultras were already in my inventory when their origin was discovered. I'm very much against people selling snakes as being pure, knowing they're actually hybrids. That bothers me very much. However, if I have a morph that later turns out to be a hybrid, I will stop reproducing them. The person who sold the reverse trio of Tesseras to Graham (who didn't know they were new mutants) told Graham (and later, me) that he produced them by pairing a Striped Corn to an Okeetee corn. Was I there when he did this? Of course, not. Do I believe him? I have no reason not to. Until someone comes up with evidence to change my mind, I'm big on having faith in what I'm told. Doesn't mean I'll buy a bridge from someone, but if an animal is sold to me as a duck, and looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, in the absence of contrary evidence, I'll call it a duck. I also make it clear to those who sell me "new" morphs that I will be more than unhappy if I find that they lied to me, regarding genetic origins.

Leopard Rat in Tessera Corns? I just don't see it, and as someone earlier pointed out, to say it must be a Leopard Rat hybrid because it has the same mutation, must therefore mean that all albino Ball Pythons, Burmese Pythons, Boas, Rat Snakes, King snakes, Bulls, Pines, Milks, Garters, rattlers, etc. are Corn Snake hybrids, since the first albino snakes in modern herpetoculture were Corns. Also, that all leucistic pythons are Texas Rat Snake Hybrids. Meet me here in 5,000 years, and every mutation known in respective serpent species today will be represented in every single serpent species on the planet. It's deeply embedded in their genome, but is not revealed until the right alleles line up between two consenting adult snakes. All the mutations we see today have been showing up in Nature for millions of years. Only because of reproducing snakes that aren't eaten by raccoons, hawks, owls, and skunks, are we able to see what we've been missing. Native Americans spoke of white buffaloes hundreds of years ago. All that said, I don't blame anyone for having rational doubts. I could argue until I'm blue in the face that Tesseras are pure corns, but I don't know that. The guy who sold those snakes to Graham told me he no longer has snakes, and prefers to stay out of them, but should he consent to speaking with anyone, I will be the first to give his name. I can tell you that when I told him I wanted the origins of the Tesseras straight from his mouth because it will be featured in my next book, he also asked me to tell the world that he had Lavender Corn Mutants before anyone else. If any of you know who that is, I didn't have to give out his name. grin The question remains, will everyone believe what he tells us about them, or will they doubt it so strongly, they'll urge others to disbelieve him, simply because they remind someone of a mutation found in another species?

May as well get this out of the way, while on subject. A few people have expressed that I must have made the Palmetto from Leucistic Rat Snakes. Again, I don't shy away from reasonable doubts, but I acquired this from a non-mainstream corn snake keeper ( I didn't say breeder ) who bought it from a lady that has never kept snakes (she found it on her property). I believe it primarily because even looking at the wild-caught mutant, I saw no similarities to existing species' mutants, and because there was no other evidence contrary to the story behind its discovery. I've hatched enough Palmettos now to see that none have hatched with fewer than 100 color flecks; a color volume never before demonstrated in Rat Snake Mutants. I have also not seen a primarily white mutant like the Palmetto in other serpent species. Saw a gecko like them in a magazine two months ago, but so far, none of the Palmettos have shown any degree of legs and eyelid development.

Don
 
I just want the first piebald corn snake to hatch so I can be the at the head of the line to scream "Ball python X corn snake hibird"! ;)
 
Actually, it seems like a given these days that ANY new mutation in corn snakes is automatically labelled as being a hybrid.... :rolleyes:
 
First, let me say that I don't have time right now to address the questions about Leopard Rats marrying Corns, but I can tell you from having seen rat snake hybrids for over 35 years now, there are ALWAYS throw-backs. Progeny that tattle on the minor representative pheontype from the original gene donor. I was the first to reproduce these snakes, and the first to identify the heritability. Since then, I have produced over 500 of them, and have never seen one with any resemblance to Leopard Rats (primarily, the head pattern).


Now, what I know about the origins of the Ultras:

Before it was revealed by the originator of the Ultra Mutants that a Gray Rat Snake was used to make the first ones, they were in commerce under the name of Ultra Hypo Corns (most were motleys). Simultaneously, Frosted Corns were also being advertised. The first "frosted" corns I purchased from Andy Barr were purported to be Gray Rat x Corn hybrids. After the release of Bill and Kathy Love's first book, I approached Andy, and asked why he was quoted as saying in the book that they were pure corns. That was when the Expo was in Orlando, and I recall him finally saying to me, "well some were and some were not". He said some were made from a Gray Snow (the final product of the hybrid crossing of a Snow Corn to a Gray Rat Snake) and some were from the pairing of a pure Snow Corn to one of the Ultra types. In so much as every time I bred my Frosted Corns to Amel Corns, I got 50% Ultramels and 50% Amels (the parallel results of breeding an Ultramel Corn to an Amel Corn), it was clear that the Frosted Corns possessed the same mutation as the Ultra types. Since Mike Shiver told me essentially the same story about the origin of the Ultra Hypos (that a Gray Rat was used in their creation), commonality of Frosted Corns and Ultra types was a foregone conclusion.

On one of Rich Z's popular corn snake chat forums back in the mid 1990s, it was discussed at length (surely those threads are archived) and in the final analyses, the forum participants unofficially decided that Mike Shiver had likely been upset about getting out of the corn snake business and had therefore falsely stated that a Gray Rat Snake was used in their creation. At that time, keepers and breeders of Ultra types either chose to ignore the testimonies of Mike and Andy - in favor of being able to declare that they were not hybrids - OR realized that by the time this discussion came up, many of us had bred Ultra types into hundreds of pure corns, and it was too late to rid out inventories of those mutant products. In essence, they chose to downplay the Hybrid Issue. So be it. It is difficult (if not impossible) to sway public opinion. Especially when some forum participants have the time to lobby their views on a regular and constant basis). Meantime, I was still saying they were hybrids, until one day when a customer that was interested in buying one said to me, "I wasn't aware that the SMR Ultra types were hybrids, so I'm buying mine from so-and-so who has pure Ultra types". That was when I stopped advertising that they were hybrids, but everyone who ended up ordering one from me was told by me that they were hybrids. The facts seemed to blur with time, but every time I was involved in any thread about Ultra types, I made it a point to remind that they were not pure corns. Each time I did, it seemed that a new generation of forum frequenters were present, and had little or no knowledge of their alien origins. When I rolled out my new web site, I decided to make it abundantly clear that they were not pure corns, so just as I label Creamsicles as Inter-species hybrids between Emory's Rats and Corns, Ultra types were also labeled as hybrids from a sister species.

One thread even posed the challenge that since the originator of this mutation said he used a White Oak phase of Gray Rat Snake, someone should breed a wild-caught Gray Rat with an Amel Corn to see what happens. I was always comically amused at this line of thinking, which seems to have presumed that ALL Gray Rat Snakes possess this mutation? OR all White Oak Gray Rats (which is only a phase - not locality) would carry the mutation. To me, that's like saying since the first albino corn was discovered in NC, all corns in NC are het for Amel.

Do any of us really know the origins of the mutants of any species for sure? Unless we were there to see the first pairing, how could we? Add to that the fact that so many captive corns have escaped or been intentionally released in the wild, how can we even really know the origins of corns we personally catct in the wild? Sure, it's logical to presume that a corn snake we capture far from a city (or corn snake breeder) does not possess any alien genes derived from captive-breeding, but anyone that's worked at a zoo knows of (or has seen) Natural hybrids. When I lived in California, more than one California King x Pacific Gopher were donated to the zoo, and most (if not all) were genuinely found in the wild. Geneticist will also tell you that the likelihood of mutations springing from the pairing of two different species (inter-species), is more likely than mutations derived from intra-species pairings. Mutants are mutants. In the wild or in captivity, mutants are rare. Perhaps more prevalent in captivity, since unlike their wild counterparts, captively-produced corns are not exposed to the predators that prey upon corn snakes in the wild. Surely, countless thousands of mutants have hatched in the wild over the past mellenia, but the appearance of most of them were so unsuccessful, their full genetic potential never entered the gene pools. Fortunately, most mutant heterozygotes are successful in the wild, in that their phenotypes are virtually identical to their nominate forms, and therefore, ideally suited for survival in their natural habitats. It is for this reason, some corn snake mutations are still found in the wild. Some are even more successful than their nominate form, and thrive among their wild gene pools; i.e. Anerythristic Corns. Look at Black Pine Snakes and Great Lakes Melanistic Garter Snakes? Very successful mutants, indeed.

PS, as Rich will tell you, once he was convinced that the Frosted Corns were hybrids (when he bought them, he was told they were pure corns), he sold me all of those snakes. I subsequently bred them, and except for the Amels of this line looking nothing like Amel Corns, all the non-Amels looked precisely like all the Ultramels and Ultramel Aneries in our hobby today. In typical hybrid fashion, their pheontypic diversity is VAST, but everyone would call the Frosted Ghosts I produced, ULTRAMEL ANERIES.

Don

THANK YOU

Yes, Tara, sometimes it's about the forgotten and invisible drop of milk in the swimming pool.

I DO understand the hybrid concerns. Predictability in corn snake morphs is greater when only one species is involved. I will not knowingly sell new hybrids on my web site. The only reason the Ultra types and Creamsicles are there is because the Creams were not considered hybrids when first created (as Rich says, hybrid's ultimately just a word) and the Ultras were already in my inventory when their origin was discovered. I'm very much against people selling snakes as being pure, knowing they're actually hybrids. That bothers me very much. However, if I have a morph that later turns out to be a hybrid, I will stop reproducing them. The person who sold the reverse trio of Tesseras to Graham (who didn't know they were new mutants) told Graham (and later, me) that he produced them by pairing a Striped Corn to an Okeetee corn. Was I there when he did this? Of course, not. Do I believe him? I have no reason not to. Until someone comes up with evidence to change my mind, I'm big on having faith in what I'm told. Doesn't mean I'll buy a bridge from someone, but if an animal is sold to me as a duck, and looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, in the absence of contrary evidence, I'll call it a duck. I also make it clear to those who sell me "new" morphs that I will be more than unhappy if I find that they lied to me, regarding genetic origins.

Leopard Rat in Tessera Corns? I just don't see it, and as someone earlier pointed out, to say it must be a Leopard Rat hybrid because it has the same mutation, must therefore mean that all albino Ball Pythons, Burmese Pythons, Boas, Rat Snakes, King snakes, Bulls, Pines, Milks, Garters, rattlers, etc. are Corn Snake hybrids, since the first albino snakes in modern herpetoculture were Corns. Also, that all leucistic pythons are Texas Rat Snake Hybrids. Meet me here in 5,000 years, and every mutation known in respective serpent species today will be represented in every single serpent species on the planet. It's deeply embedded in their genome, but is not revealed until the right alleles line up between two consenting adult snakes. All the mutations we see today have been showing up in Nature for millions of years. Only because of reproducing snakes that aren't eaten by raccoons, hawks, owls, and skunks, are we able to see what we've been missing. Native Americans spoke of white buffaloes hundreds of years ago. All that said, I don't blame anyone for having rational doubts. I could argue until I'm blue in the face that Tesseras are pure corns, but I don't know that. The guy who sold those snakes to Graham told me he no longer has snakes, and prefers to stay out of them, but should he consent to speaking with anyone, I will be the first to give his name. I can tell you that when I told him I wanted the origins of the Tesseras straight from his mouth because it will be featured in my next book, he also asked me to tell the world that he had Lavender Corn Mutants before anyone else. If any of you know who that is, I didn't have to give out his name. grin The question remains, will everyone believe what he tells us about them, or will they doubt it so strongly, they'll urge others to disbelieve him, simply because they remind someone of a mutation found in another species?

May as well get this out of the way, while on subject. A few people have expressed that I must have made the Palmetto from Leucistic Rat Snakes. Again, I don't shy away from reasonable doubts, but I acquired this from a non-mainstream corn snake keeper ( I didn't say breeder ) who bought it from a lady that has never kept snakes (she found it on her property). I believe it primarily because even looking at the wild-caught mutant, I saw no similarities to existing species' mutants, and because there was no other evidence contrary to the story behind its discovery. I've hatched enough Palmettos now to see that none have hatched with fewer than 100 color flecks; a color volume never before demonstrated in Rat Snake Mutants. I have also not seen a primarily white mutant like the Palmetto in other serpent species. Saw a gecko like them in a magazine two months ago, but so far, none of the Palmettos have shown any degree of legs and eyelid development.

Don

THANK YOU
 
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