Dominant traid new collor ?????????

[slangenbroed]

6 years ago i bred amel to normal het amel result amel and normals one off the normals was different, brown with more yellow.
That anymal i held back ( female ) They said then it is a caramel and 2 years later i bred that animal to a amel het caramel , and now i happens.
Result amel , normals ,and amel but far more yellow and normal with more yellow but now caramel ore butters.
2 animals brownyellow and 2 anymals amelyellow , 1 male 3 female now in 2006 i put the last animals together.
Result amelyellow male x brownyellow female = normal, amel,amelyellow and brownyellow.
Result amelyellow male x amelyellow female = amel and amelyellow
In my opinion is this a dominant traid ?????????
For pics see www.slangenbroed.nl under the butten nieuw

 

[JoannaD]

I am no expert but it would be more likely with what you have said for it to be recessive if anything. If it was dominant all the animals would have to be what you are calling Cinnamon or "amel Cinnamon". It would also be helpful if you gave the number of babies that hatched in every clutch and how many of each were amel, normal, or the "new/different" normals and amels. The other question that might come up is are you sure that these animals are pure corn and there is no emoryi or other species that could cause this influence.



Joanna

 

[slangenbroed]

i will look at the numbers that hatched from the clutches
The first animals was a normal collord animal het amel x amel there was now emory in the game ore creamsircle.

 

[Kat]

If it was dominant all the animals would have to be what you are calling Cinnamon or "amel Cinnamon".

Actually, no... That would only be true if he started with an animal homozoygous for the look... The pattern does seem to fit the idea of a trait dominant to normal.
If we assume dominant-to-wildtype behavior, the original odd critter was XxAaCC. He crossed it to an XXaaCc and got what appeared to be a mix of XxAaC?, XXAaX?, XxaaC?, and XXaaC?. He then crossed XxaaC? to XxAaC? and got a mix of XXAaC?, XXaaC?, XxaaC?, and XxAaC?. He also crossed XxaaC? to XxaaC? and got XXaaC?, XxaaC? and maybe even xxaaC?.

The other question that might come up is are you sure that these animals are pure corn and there is no emoryi or other species that could cause this influence.

This is a possibility as well. Certainly the first thing I thought of on seeing the orange-yellow amel was the possibility of emoryi bloodlines... and of course you'd have variation with some looking more towards the normal corn end of the spectrum, and some looking far more emoryi-like.

-Kat

 

[JoannaD]

Actually, no... That would only be true if he started with an animal homozoygous for the look... The pattern does seem to fit the idea of a trait dominant to normal.
If we assume dominant-to-wildtype behavior, the original odd critter was XxAaCC. He crossed it to an XXaaCc and got what appeared to be a mix of XxAaC?, XXAaX?, XxaaC?, and XXaaC?. He then crossed XxaaC? to XxAaC? and got a mix of XXAaC?, XXaaC?, XxaaC?, and XxAaC?. He also crossed XxaaC? to XxaaC? and got XXaaC?, XxaaC? and maybe even xxaaC?.
-Kat

Oops sorry! You are absolutely correct! I knew I shouldn't have opened my mouth! I should have written down genotypes before typing a response!

Jo

 

[slangenbroed]

The clutches

Male amelyellow x female brownyellow
1 x normal
3 x amel
1 x brownyellow
1 x amelyellow

Male amelyellow x female brownyellow
1 x normal
1 x amel
2 x brownyellow
4 x amelyellow

Male amelyellow x femal amelyellow
7 x amelyellow

In the last case i had make a mistake there was no amel

I still think it is dominant becuase the amelyellow is the same traid as the brownyellow but then in amel, and that meens when it is recessif it is not possibel to get normals.
Recessif traid x traid = traid
Dominant ( singel ) x dominant ( singel ) = Dominant (double)
Dominant ( singel )
Normals
Greatings Jan

 

[Kat]

Well... that does complicate it a bit. One would expect to see some normal amels in the last clutch. It -IS- possible that the odds just weren't with you that time.

-Kat

 

[slangenbroed]

Question

How can i post some good pics so you can see the dif between amel en amelyellow.

 

[janew]

Maybe I should get slated for being simplistic, but here goes anyway. Some caramel bloodlines do seem to "bleed through" in the heterozygous state, so I suspect what you are seeing could be normal het caramel or butter (brownyellow) and amel het caramel (amelyellow). You have had fairly small clutch sizes, so you could just have been unlucky with the odds for butter or amel?

 

[slangenbroed]

answer

my opinion is you are caramel or not there is nothing between.And what you say about het caramel x het caramel where is the caramel offspring ??????????

 

[Menhir]

[OffTopic]

I normally don't browse dutch cornsnake sites, but through this thread, I found a part of your homepage called "kleurvarianten" where you use nearly all of the photos that are on our site "Kornnatterlexikon.de". Without asking for permission, you are stealing these photos from us, and I would be very pleased if you could stop doing this and take them off your site.
We allow enough people to use this photos and all of them asked us before stealing something. Additionally they provide an banner-link to our site.

It is sad, that I have to do this at least two or three times a month... :shrugs:

 

[slangenbroed]

Dominant inheritance in relation to the wild-type

Dominant inheritance in relation to the wild-type

gametes m m
M Mm Mm
m mm mm

When by mutation during the meiosis and fertilisation a dominant herediting mutation factor appears in one of the youngsters, this factor is expressing immediately. Compensation is not possible. The result is visible in the animal directly. In the cross-table the dominant factor is represented by the letter M. We say this mutation factor is dominant in respect of the normal wild-type. We name this one-factor dominance. When we mate this young to a normal wild-type this factor one one of the chromosomes will inherits immediately. Mated with a partner who has not the mutated gene gives us 50% youngsters who have this mutation factor. There are no hetro’s.


gametes M m
M MM Mm
m Mm mm

When we mate two 1-factor animals (M) there is a possibility of youngsters with a double factor (MM). We name this 2-factor dominant. 25%of these young animals can be 2-factor dominant, 50% can be 1-factor dominant and 25% can be normal wild-type. A dominant factor in a population is seen immediately. This factor is spreading very fast in a population.

In my case 1e Year
The female born out the amel x normal het amel = Mm
The male amel het caramel = mm

Not looking at amel and caramel that is proven reccesive

gametes m m
M Mm Mm
m mm mm

2e Year
The female brownyellow Mn
The male amelyellow Mn

gametes M m
M MM Mm
m Mm mm

That is why I get normal collered animal’s mm
The animals MM born this year , aim not sure ,there is a difference in yellow the same as there is a difference in lavender

 

[slangenbroed]

Sorry aber ich habe sie in 2002 gefragt ob ich die foto's benutsen darf und damals hatten sie keine problemen damit.Ich benutse normal nie dingen ohne das ich das gefragt hette.
Mein name ist Jan Notté

 

[Menhir]

Hmmm, sorry then, in 2002 you may got the permission from Daniel. I showed him your site and he couldn't remember you. So, sorry for that and please add the visible banner link with a credit to us. We've made this a rule for all sites using our pictures with permission. You can find the banner here:
http://www.kornnatterlexikon.de/index.php?action=5&section=54#BANNER

Sorry for the confusion, it just got worse the last few months with sites stealing our pictures and I slowly become a little angry.

 

[slangenbroed]

Ok i will put the banner onn that site now hard feelings i like your site and it is a good one for the snakebreeders.
Another question can you give me your opinion on this matter dominant ore not i mailed you befor with a mistake in it it was not a caramel but a amel het caramel in the first year.
I see on your forum that there appeers a name mandarin do you now more off it and is that recessive ???

 

[Menhir]

Hi,

Mandarin is the Amelanistic phase of a new recessive gene called "Kastanie" (engl. chestnut). It is a longer story and you can find some information in the Kornnatterlexikon, german as well as in english.
I'm not sure about your animals, it looks dominant, but sometimes things look strange and I would appreciate some breeding trials against totally unrelated animals.

Greetings from Nuremberg
Michael

 

[slangenbroed]

i think to put them nex year to lavender thats a total other line, en then we see.

 

[slangenbroed]

Her some pics from animals befor shed afther shed and together with normal and amel animals i will make this weekend.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Sorry aber ich habe sie in 2002 gefragt ob ich die foto's benutsen darf und damals hatten sie keine problemen damit.Ich benutse normal nie dingen ohne das ich das gefragt hette.
Mein name ist Jan Notté

First of all, I find this very rude.

Thank you, Menhir for continuing the conversation in English to the rest of us can understand what's going on.

As to the pictures of your "cinnamon..." It looks like a Caramel to me...But I am certainly NOT an expert on Caramels (my Caramel Motleys look greenish-tan, probably due to the Motley gene).

 

[Menhir]

First of all, I find this very rude.

No, it is not that rude. He just said, that he asked my friend Daniel in 2002 if you is allowed to use the pictures. None the less, even back in 2002 Daniel always said that a link is needed and that the pictures linked to South Mountain Reptiles are not allowed to use.

Back to topic, I see very strong parallels to Caramel, but the ratios don't fit the Caramel-thing very well. It is always hard to judge something that was just bred together. We had that thing with the new chestnut or "Kastanie" Gen. They were always bred together, so no one was able to tell, if this is a Hybird thing or a line bred thing. This year, testbreedings showed that it is a new recessive gene. So, I think it would be nice to breed this trait into another line. If it is dominant, breeding your brownymale to any other female should produce about 50% brownys or whatever to call them. I think Cinnamon is a little dumb, cause HypoRootbeers are already labeled that way and I don't think you want to have your animals somewhere near Hybrids if it isn't the case, not?

...maybe I should teach you some german? Let's start with "Viele Grüße aus Nürnberg"
Michael