Dominant traid new collor ?????????

[SnakeAround]

I do think the one you call amber does not look like amber, and cinnamon is indeed a rootbeer morph. And what is a lutino? That is a cockatiel morph?! I'm not sure how wise it is to use made up names on your site without telling you made them up.... or did I miss that part? Since you post very technical stuff, I do think you are a serious breeder with enough knowledge (did not read it completely so I am not sure if it is accurate though), but seeing those made up names does not add to that image. If someone would be advertising with lutino corns just looking like regular cremsicles or amels het caramel, I would not buy his animals. By the way; some hets do show a bit in the phenotype of a snake, so in a way, there are 'in between' looks. For example, lots of normals and amels het caramel look more yellow indeed.

 

[SnakeAround]

Forgo to say; the cinnamon looks caramel and the caramel loos more amber. The one you call cinnamon, could be amber after all, but maybe allso a hybrid, colorwise. The one you call cinnamon by the way, looks like the size of a yearling, and it is 6 years old?! I don't want to sound rude, but are they not just from inbred lines with strange blood mixed in it? I see so many of those small, a bit weird looking 'corns' advertised in Holland, I would be very suspicious about those.

 

[ecreipeoj]

My first impression of the Brown/Yellows is CARAMEL, but a dominant yellow gene may mimic Caramel. There is an ongoing debate about whether or not Caramel is recessive or co-dominant. The reason many people believe that Caramel is co-dominant and not recessive is because hets for Caramel can be extremely yellow.

I jumped on the Carmel is co-dominant bandwagon, after two years of breeding a few homo Caramels such as Male Striped Butters and a Male Butter Motleys that I obtained from Rich Z. When I bred them to Amels, they screamed YELLOW and look exactly like your “Lutinos”. When I bred them and produced Normals, they screamed YELLOW as well. This year, I bred quite a few Het Caramels to non-caramel carriers and should have been able to easily see the Het Caramels in the clutches, but it was not as easy as it should have been. Also, some of my homo Caramels did not produce the yellows in het offspring, like the two males had. There was a difference in color of the Homo Caramels that produced yellows and the ones that did not. The ones that produced the het yellow offspring, were more saturated with yellow and the shade of color was deeper.

The debate over whether or not Caramel is co-dominant or recessive waged on, and then Rich Z responded on one of threads and he adamantly believes that Caramel is recessive and can not be seen as het. Who is going to argue with the discover of the gene? Many people believe that the cause of the yellow het offspring is simply the result of selectively breeding for yellow in the Caramel line, but it seems to be such an on/off type occurrence when it happens, and it is not diluted by out crossing much at all.

I suggested in this thread that there is another possibility. A new co-dominant yellow gene could have easily been bred into and heavily mixed into the Caramel line. If this had happened, then some of us would see this co-dominant or dominant yellow gene in hets, and others with Caramels that did not have this gene, would not see yellow in their hets. It sounds like the gene is dominant exactly like the Hypo Boa gene is. A Homo Hypo Boa and a Het Hypo Boa look exactly the same. If this is the case with the “Yellow” gene, then it would appear to mimic a recessive gene when Het Yellow X Het Yellow or Het Yellow X Normal is bred together, but your last Yellow Amel X Yellow Amel Clutch, could have easily been a Homo Yellow X Homo Yellow breeding and the entire clutch would be homo for Yellow or if it was a Homo Yellow X Het Yellow breeding the entire clutch would be yellow as well. In the Boa World these are called SUPERS !!!!, because you can breed them to anything and produce a clutch of 100% Het Yellows and they will all look like Yellows.

I think the possibility of a new dominant Yellow gene that has been mixed in with the Caramel line makes much more since than selective breeding to cause more yellow. Look at this photo that I have attached. The breeding was a Butter Motley X Red Amel Motley like the Red Amel Motley in the comparison photo and BAM!!, the entire clutch had a strong yellow wash to it. That is some pretty strong selective bred yellow coloration, because it didn’t get diluted much at all. When you breed a Butter Motley to one of these Yellow Amels, you get all Yellow Amels, but they are not more intensely saturated with yellow coloration, they look exactly the same, just like a Homo Dominant and Het Dominant gene would.

Several years ago, Don S and I traded some “Snake Candy” for fun. He sent me some Amels poss het Striped Butter, that were extremely yellow and look exactly like the Yellow Amels. The first year, one of the Amel poss het Striped Butter was bred to a Striped Butter, and Butter Motleys were produce. It was het for Caramel, but was het for Motley and not Striped. This year, I had a Yellow Amel Striped sibling to the Amel het Butter Motley produce eggs and I was practically 100% positive that it was het for Caramel. I produced 100% Yellow Amel Stripes exactly like the mother.

I think based upon the co-dominant vs. recessive debate about Caramel, my breeding results and now your Dominant Yellow breeding results, without Caramel in the line, all evidence weights heavily for there being a newly discovered dominant Yellow gene in our Corns.

 

[Menhir]

One thing that I always think of is selective breeding. I think, many people that bread Caramels or Butters chose animals with an extremely nice amount of yellow. Why shouldn't that be noticable in outcrossings? Same thing with Bloodred Outcrosses - many animals show baldy heads, not being hom. Bloodred. Breeding them together also leads to hom. Bloodreds not showing the Headpattern - should we immediately state, that the baldy head may be a recessive trait? Also the ventral pattern of Silverqueens is noticable in the F1 and varies in the F2 very strong. I highly doubt that the ventral pattern of Silverqueens is a genetic trait.
I would wish that a breeding to animals especially not line bred for yellow could show, that there is some genetic actiong of the amount of yellow possible. I think that all that other things are more a listing of possibilities, at least until now.

 

[Snakexperience]

Unfortunately i have my own opinion about 'Slangenbroed' considering recent discussions about some off his animals posted on a dutch forum..
But that aside..
I think there are Emory genes involved, if so, isn't it possible to have bred Caramel rootbeer?
Maybe the 'normals' that came out of the breeding of the 'strange' Amel and the Amel het. Caramel, were in fact rootbeers het. Caramel and Caramel Rootbeers?
My experiences in breeding tell me that Caramel is showing in animals that are het. for this gene. It turns the phenotype more yellow and often it gives the animal a rather funky head-pattern.
I, the same as Joe, think that Caramel has a good chance of being co-dominant, Caramel rootbeer has the same effect i think..

Arjan

 

[slangenbroed]

sorry but

There is now emory in this animal, i had emory in my stok but the are never crossed into corns because i don't like hybrids.
The names i put to these animals why not what wrong with it ok cinnamon is a name that is already used but not for pure cornsnakes.
The name lutino coms out off parakeets thats treu because i was a parakeet breeder for more than 20 years when i look at these animals than the names are not so stranged.
But here pics where you can see the different between that animal and normal amels.

 

[slangenbroed]

Qeustion

What do you mean snakexperience with what you say???????? about my animals.

 

[slangenbroed]

pics from anymals

Here are the pics sorry it went wrong the first time

 

[SnakeAround]

I do not say the names are strange, but it is seems weird/unprofessional to use names you made up yourself without telling those are not official names. Those 'lutino's' look like creams, which have emory blood, like 'chocolats' do (in reference to a thread on a Dutch site where a member showed 'chocolats' he bought from you).

I believe you did not cross emory's with corns yourself, but maybe your thought to be pure corns, are not pure, you would not be the first to encounter this problem. So you did not do it on purpose, but might have bought pure corns which are not.

 

[slangenbroed]

Yes i had ones a couple of chocolats, buyd from a man neerby eindhoven but i never breed them.Afther 3 years a sold them to some one i belief his name was bart.
But anyway those animals are never used in this line, they where not adult at that time.( 6 years ago )
I never liked hybrids, and ones i had them in stok from a man comming from tilburg that where bloodredamelmotley's he tolt my they where pure but that wasn't,and becouse i don't like hybrid i sold them 2 years later without breeding them.( and telling the buyer that these animals are not pure corns )
The originel anymals in this story where one normal het amel x amel, i dont have these animals anymore so i can't post a pic sorry.
The names i give to them ???? who makes names and if there is a better name i like to hear from this forum.
I belief Kathy Love had one different anymal breed in 1999 or 2000 an it was named hi-white.
Who has made the name caramel- butter- lavendel-mandarin-opal ect. ect.

 

[SnakeAround]

I do not say those chocolats are bred into the line, but since the guy with the chocolats (do not know his name) told he bought them as pure form you, I concluded you might not be really sure about which snakes are carrying strange blood or not, and maybe could have bought pure corns which are not pure after all and then bred those ' weird' cinnamons and ' lutino's' with them.

On the naming subjects; you are right about who gives names, but in general there are a few American breeders who are followed in naming, cause they discover and proof new genes/morphs. When they use a new name, they do announce it, and only after it has been proven by 2 generations of breeding, that it is a new morph indeed. If you prove to have bred a new morph by using other lines and breed the morph into it, to exclude the yellow is from line breeding, you sure have the 'right' to choose the name of it!

 

[slangenbroed]

ok
The names , how must i cal them brownyellow amelyellow ????????? snake, normel new projekt ??????
I breed them now for the 2e time and luckely there is amel in the game, and you see it in amel the best.
Nex year i will breed them to lavender i think, ore is there a better way.
My lavender comming from Marck Vervest ( belgum ), and he buy them from rich zuchowski, first the line's are never the same and i can see what it does with lavendel.( what it does i will see next year, but in lavendel that is after 3 years from now )

 

[SnakeAround]

You may call them lutino, but with the note that is your projectname, or when you type it on a forum, type; 'lutino' and 'cinnamon' if you prefer to call them that. That is what is done most of the time. Take a look at htis thread
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36683&page=1&pp=10
if you like, where they are discussing a newly (hopefully) discovered gene, they are also using the new name(s) with 'x' most of the time.

 

[ecreipeoj]

It is not surprising that everybody is jumping on the hybrid band wagon or selective breeding bandwagon. When I first crossed a Rich Z Butter Motley X Red Amel Motley and Rich Z Striped Butter X Amel Striped, one of my first thoughts were OH NO!, they look like Creamcicles, but they were certainly not Corn Snake hybrids. I produce some Amel Cubes that are the same color of Creamcicles too, but they are not hybrids.

The existence of a dominant yellow gene, would solve most of the questions about the instant occurrence of extremely yellow offspring when the line is crossed with a non-yellow line. One of the things that supports this possibility of the existence of a dominant yellow gene in my mind, is that I do not get this type of look from all of my Butters. I have four Butter Motley females, but only two of them throws these high yellow offspring while the others do not. The ones that do, have some very saturated yellow coloration that is much deeper than the rest just like my Male Striped Butter and Male Butter Motley.

There is a dominant yellow gene in Bearded Dragons, so it is very possibly that there is also one in Corns. I do not discard selective breeding as a possibility for the extreme yellow colorations, but it does not seem to be diluted very much, which it should be when out crossed, so I am leaning towards a gene that causes yellow coloration, other than the Caramel gene.

I fully expect that in time we will discover genes in our Corns that cause yellow, red and black pigments to be very exaggerated. Perhaps we are expecting something as dramatic as the difference between a Normal and Amel, but it is not likely that this will be the case. The difference will be much more subtle

I am not sure if I like the Lutino name for a gene that causes yellow coloration in Corns. The Lutino gene in birds is more like an amelanistic type gene that removes melanin and changes a Normal to an extreme morph which happens to be yellow in a green based bird. In a blue based bird, it changes them to a cream color. In the case of a Yellow Gene in the Corns, it just adds yellow to a Normal Colored Corn, and does not remove any pigment such as melanin.

I happen to have some offspring from a Striped Butter X Red Striped Amel, on the shelf behind me, so I took some quick comparison shots with a Red Striped Amel. The differences are very similar to my Butter Motley X Red Amel Motley results and the results of the topic of this thread.

 

[SnakeAround]

And you do not think this difference is caused by the het caramel gene? I'd like to understand why not.

 

[ecreipeoj]

And you do not think this difference is caused by the het caramel gene? I'd like to understand why not.

This was what I believed in the beginning, but there are just too many people, like Rich Z for example, that do not believe that Caramel can be seen as het. There are many others that are in the know as well, that have produced het Caramels that are not yellow. For two years in a row, I produced 100% het Caramels that were yellow from my two males, but this year, I did not have the same results with all of my Butter Motley females, which I should have, if it was the Het Caramel causing the yellow color. In the past, I had bred these female Butter Motleys to Butter Motleys, but this year, they were bred to something other than a Butter, and many of the Amels and Normals in the clutches were normal looking, while a few did have yellow.

If it was that simple, then 100% of every het Caramel in existence would be extremely yellow, but they are not. It is very plausible that a different gene, that causes yellow got mixed into the Caramel line. Selective breeding can certainly do a lot, but it is easily lost, and is not something, that is an on/off type occurrence which this seems to be.

In Bearded Dragons, I see obvious signs of on/off occurrences which I believe are Het Yellow X Het Yellow breedings. Some are very normal looking, and some have a little yellow, and then some have extreme yellow coloration. This would be more in line with a co-dominant gene, but similar results would be seen. I think the main problem is that a selectively bred for trait, when out crossed, can have similar results, but in the Dragons, unrelated out crossings have the same result. What ever the cause is truly caused by, it is a very nice look never the less.

 

[SnakeAround]

But looking at het diffused corns, not all show the same amount of diffusion, 'reveiling' the het. Thinking further;

Could it be that this 'yellow' gene just 'allows' the het caramel influence to show?

 

[Marcel Poots]

How can i post some good pics so you can see the dif between amel en amelyellow.

[ IMG ] http://home-3.wolmail.nl/~sb085434/images/lutino2006.jpg[ /IMG ]

without the spaces will result in:

 

[ecreipeoj]

But looking at het diffused corns, not all show the same amount of diffusion, 'reveiling' the het. Thinking further;

Could it be that this 'yellow' gene just 'allows' the het caramel influence to show?

Co-dominant genes, can certainly vary, and so much so, that many times that you can not easily detect it, so this is certainly a possible parallel between Diffused and Caramel.

I am not sure we will ever be 100% certain about the cause of high yellow offspring in Het Caramels, but in the case of this thread, he has not produced a Caramel morph, even though some of his results really do look like Caramels. I think it is still possible, that he does have Caramel in his line, but he just hasn’t produced a Butter from them, but the numbers do not suggest that.

How are we going to separate a yellow causing gene, from selective breeding for yellow anyway? I am sure it is possible, but it sounds like a very long term project, that won’t really help much in the prediction of producing yellow offspring.

The Amel Striped poss het Butter female that I have, that is extremely yellow, proved to not be het for Caramel this year, so I can breed her to a male that is not yellow and see what happens. Will all of her offspring be yellowish, or around 50% of them or some other result that doesn’t really point to anything?

There are a few other examples of extremely yellow Corns, that are not het for Caramel. One thing that may be possible with a Yellow causing gene, that wasn’t possible with Caramel, is to produce a very black and yellow anery, so I can see some possible benefits to proving such as gene out. How about a very yellow Lavender?

 

[Susan]

A seperate gene that increases the yellow (or maybe simply the "lesser" colors - i.e. everything except red and black) does make some sense. It would account for the high yellow amel and normal het caramels as well as the caramel hets that aren't any yellower than "normal". I have sibling amel het caramels...one is a typical amel, the other has more yellow. Obviously, it can't simply be the het caramel status that makes the one more yellow. This gene may or may not account for the yellow (or lack of) in anerys (both A & B) and snows, but may actually be influencing the peach/pinks seen in the anery and lavender morphs (and perhaps all the pink in bubblegum snows, etc). I say this because the yellowing in these amels and normals occurs throughout the entire body, as does the peach/pinks in snows, lavenders and anerys, not just on the side of the head and neck.