"Guns are the cause"

[Hypancistrus]

So your nutters will know that guns kill if shown early.... I get the feeling they knew that when they took them out...

BUT they were never taught personal responsibility, and the people around them also lacked personal responsibility. The whole "It's someone elses problem" mentality is what led to the VT shootings.

The shooters parents KNEW he was a problem child. They did nothing.

His sister KNEW he had problems. She did nothing.

His English teacher read work in which he propsed excessive violence and dark themes. She passed it on to her department chair and the school did nothing.

The psychiatrist that evaluated him at VT took his files home and studied them like he was a particularly interesting "specimen" and then did nothing.

And the shooter himself... did nothing to get himself help.

This no responsibility society we have created, coupled with a loss of moral and ethical integrity and a "me-first" attitude cultivated in part by the "feel good" parenting of the past 30 years has led to this. If it weren't guns... it would be bombs or something else with mass destruction capability.

Wait 50 years and you won't have the gun culture you have.... They will be banned, just like the UK.... And your people will wonder how you went so long allowing guns to be sold next to carrots, potatoes and washing up liquid..... I won't be around then and some of you won't.... But it's only just around the corner for you...

Please don't use religious arguments against nutters with guns....
Nutters are just nutters.... Jihad is a different thing... They may be nutters but an Imam has shown then 72 virgins.... There is a difference

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/history/bath/index_1.html

One nutter... no guns. Nutters will use whatever tools are at their disposal to further their plans. And I do not distinguish between nutters who are doing crazy, murderous things because their effed up mind told them to (or they feel "ostracized" from their peers) from those who do what they do because their religious nature tells them to (allegedly).

Both groups will, again, use whatever tools are at their disposal to achieve their ends.

It does trouble me that your government behaves like an all knowing parent, and your citizens meekly accept it.

Yes, I am thankful that some of us here are still thinking independently from what our government believes is best for us.

Fearful that so many these days behave like meek sheep, content to let the .gov tell them what to think, how to act and what health care plan is best for them.....

 

[Outcast]

So your nutters will know that guns kill if shown early.... I get the feeling they knew that when they took them out...
And the attitude of taking from cold dead fingers doesn't help the gun culture attitude.....
Wait 50 years and you won't have the gun culture you have.... They will be banned, just like the UK.... And your people will wonder how you went so long allowing guns to be sold next to carrots, potatoes and washing up liquid..... I won't be around then and some of you won't.... But it's only just around the corner for you...

I have no idea what you are talking about... I have never seen guns sold next to carrots, potatoes, and washing up liquid. If this is what your government has taught you about the US, I can see why you would feel the way you do. Getting a gun by legal means is not as easy as you think. I cannot simply walk into a gun store and say "I'll take that one!" and just walk out without having them run my drivers license, make sure I am a citizen....

When I got back from Afghanistan in 2009 and got my two pistols, I had to stand in the store, waiting for them to get the paperwork ready, I literally had to fill out a ton of papers and wait around for roughly 5 hours before everything was in line. Oh, and that was after them having my Drivers License number for over a month. I have a friend that worked with them and while I was still in Afghanistan I gave them my DL#.

Believe me, It is not a fun process... But, now that store has my records on file, since in NM your registration stays with the store, so I will most likely drive 5-6 hours to get my guns from now on, but who knows.

 

[Hypancistrus]

I have no idea what you are talking about... I have never seen guns sold next to carrots, potatoes, and washing up liquid. If this is what your government has taught you about the US, I can see why you would feel the way you do. Getting a gun by legal means is not as easy as you think. I cannot simply walk into a gun store and say "I'll take that one!" and just walk out without having them run my drivers license, make sure I am a citizen...

Technically Walmart's do carry both guns AND carrots, potatoes and washing up liquid. :rofl:

Incidentally, Mike, I do value your opinion and experience on living in a "gun-free" society. I hope that you understand the position from which my arguments come-- I am very much against any further government invasion into my life or the lives of my fellow citizens. I'm not even 30 and I'm already sick of them taking, taking and taking, without giving back.

 

[Outcast]

Every walmart I have been in does not have the guns in the produce area though...lol.

Honestly, I personally would rather go to a gun store to get one, instead of getting one from Wally World.

 

[susang]

BUT they were never taught personal responsibility, and the people around them also lacked personal responsibility. The whole "It's someone elses problem" mentality is what led to the VT shootings.

The shooters parents KNEW he was a problem child. They did nothing.

His sister KNEW he had problems. She did nothing.

His English teacher read work in which he propsed excessive violence and dark themes. She passed it on to her department chair and the school did nothing.

The psychiatrist that evaluated him at VT took his files home and studied them like he was a particularly interesting "specimen" and then did nothing.

And the shooter himself... did nothing to get himself help.

This no responsibility society we have created, coupled with a loss of moral and ethical integrity and a "me-first" attitude cultivated in part by the "feel good" parenting of the past 30 years has led to this. If it weren't guns... it would be bombs or something else with mass destruction capability.

.

Believe me I understand what you are saying here, I am also hoping you don't believe this is true in every situation.
By my own experience I have a 17 yo step-grandson who has been diagnosed with many things. He steals (three bikes in one week at school), he steals from mini-mart/gas stations (they won't prosecute because it's too much trouble), he has broken into houses including his own (only his parents will prosecute). He has finally been kicked out of school it took 3 semesters of bad behavior. He has spent the better part of the last 6 months in juvie, everytime he gets out my daughter follows him until she sees him breaking probation or doing something illegal. The the police come and arrest him. He has threated to kill my daughter, the list goes on. They can't kick him out because he is 17. He thinks he is being abused because he can't have his xbox in his room or his own computer (non of the others kids have this). He has been told these are not necessities by judges, lawyers, therapists. He thought he could take his xbox to juvie and argued with them he was not being given his rights to have one.
He will if he gets his hands on a gun, hurt someone or many. People will stand around and say if we had only known, if the parents had done more. In no way am defending Jared Lee.
Many times it is the influence of other kids, media, literature and a mind that doesn't function properly to begin with. In this case with my grandson it is a lazy society and or laws that make it possible. No mother should have to follow their child to turn him in for stealing, smoking pot, breaking into houses. She has begged people to prosecute. He gets two weeks in juvie and then he's out until she gets him again.

Yes kids are not responsible and parents lack in what they allow. Lack of respect, lack of understanding authority... but it is not always the case.

 

[Hypancistrus]

Many times it is the influence of other kids, media, literature and a mind that doesn't function properly to begin with. In this case with my grandson it is a lazy society and or laws that make it possible. No mother should have to follow their child to turn him in for stealing, smoking pot, breaking into houses. She has begged people to prosecute. He gets two weeks in juvie and then he's out until she gets him again.

Yes kids are not responsible and parents lack in what they allow. Lack of respect, lack of understanding authority... but it is not always the case.

You are also very correct in that assessment. In the case of the VT shooter, the law had touched him several times, and VT knew of the incidents and his instability, but our feel-good "everyone deserves a chance" society made it illegal for VT to chuck him out the door, like he deserved.

 

[Tavia]

At susang,
That type of thing is also what I was talking about. While you do have to be careful with what laws are made, so they don't get abused, right now so many times the only thing that will be done with people that everyone knows is a danger, is only after they have done something terrible. You can't make someone get therapy.

Like one of my friend's sister is married to a cop in the next town over, who abuses her and they are getting a divorce. The whole legal issues she is going through are a nightmare and despite the fact that he has several times lost his temper and thrown things around in public, she can't get anyone to believe that he might be a danger to her and take steps to make sure he doesn't come and shoot them all. He has told his daughters that he is a cop and is the law and above the law and can do whatever he wants up to and including killing someone. They totally believe him. He just finally got fired, for working on his other job while on duty, but not for any of the things he's done to his family. That is also one reason why the idea of only the police and the criminals having all the guns does't make me happy, some times there isn't much difference between the two.

 

[susang]

You are also very correct in that assessment. In the case of the VT shooter, the law had touched him several times, and VT knew of the incidents and his instability, but our feel-good "everyone deserves a chance" society made it illegal for VT to chuck him out the door, like he deserved.

Exactly but how many chances do they need I would like to know that. As I've been told it is easier to get guns on the street then drugs (I don't usually buy either) I know this young man will be a statistic. To be honest I am afraid to be around him, no longer stay with that daughter when I go visit, they have key locks on all bedroom doors. They live in fear, it's very sad. He threatened and cussed out a judge and got two weeks, one week later the judge let him out.

 

[Dreamsnake]

It is difficult to compare British society with American. For us the Wild West was only a short time past. Guns were a necessity for survival and that residual element has bleed into the cultural fabric. I wont need to repeat the views of others, suffice it to say that the gun is what made America more than any other equipment.

Now for the problem with people: many people should not be let out in the general public. When the Constitution was written only landowning white males had any rights, now the law was amended for the rest of us. The loophole being crazy people, for years the insane were placed in institutions. Reagan shut down these institutions and it was decided that family should take care of these people. I wont be the one to say that a disabled person should not have rights, but think the public should have protection from those likely to cause the most harm.

America has had many undocumented wars besides the war on drugs. The Railroad Wars, Mining Wars, Union Wars, and Mineral Rights Act are all bits of cultural history that every citizen should educate themselves with for a full understanding of why it is that Americans need to remained armed.

 

[Chip]

It is difficult to compare British society with American. For us the Wild West was only a short time past. Guns were a necessity for survival and that residual element has bleed into the cultural fabric. I wont need to repeat the views of others, suffice it to say that the gun is what made America more than any other equipment.

Well said. And while I don't "need" all the guns in my collection, I can flat out prove need for some. I own a retail store and carry large amounts of money at times. Even if guns were outlawed, for many, many decades there would be TONS of illegal firearms for robbers! I no longer hunt, but I live in the Appalachian mountains. I have had to kill animals to protect livestock. I have had bears on my property, even on my back porch. But again, this isn't a society based on needs, it's based on pursuit of happiness. I target shoot, I build and modify rifles, I *like* guns, and so do millions of other Americans who will never commit a crime with one. I'd like to know the stat on legally purchased guns used in crime vs. stolen/unregistered ones. I have a strong suspicion legal guns aren't used in many crimes, the Az shooting being the exception that proves the rule.

 

[Michael823]

I've mentioned this before... And I understand your reasoning for thinking that you should own guns, but......
The ease which you can get guns could be the problem.... We have gun crimes but they are few and far between, because we can't just go and buy guns... And we are limited to the type of guns we can own.... Plus we have to have a valid reason to own a gun and somewhere to shoot the gun....
In a modern society is there any reason to have umpteen guns?
I know you are going to come out with the right to bear arms, but that was written years ago when the people had a chance of defending themselves against troops being placed on the streets.... But unless you can afford a stealth bomber, the 'enemy' can now easily out gun you, so that amendment is really obsolete now...
And we haven't even mentioned nutters who get hold of guns yet.....

I agree. I believe that the 2nd amendment has to be opened up for interpretation relevant to today's society, and this almost religious interpretation of it now is getting out of control. There should definitely be more strict screenings to those purchasing guns, as well as much more detailed ways to track guns and ammunition back to it's original source. I'm sorry, but there is NO need for the casual person to have a fully automatic weapon at your disposal.

Now, I do feel like there should be circumstances that can allow certain people to own certain weapons, but it needs regulation. Whether it's guns killing people, or people killing people, there's too much killing, and the easy access to guns is clearly part of the problem.

As someone who used to hunt, and as someone who loved target practicing, I can relate to wanting to keep the right to bear arms. But I don't think that the amendment itself is being threatened at all, it just needs a more idealistic re-vamping that makes sense to society as it is.

I always took pride in feeling like I earned my right to use a gun, and that my safety practicing in shooting and handling my guns was important. But I was the only person of all of my friends that actually handled a gun properly, and there were plenty of people that I knew who had guns that definitely shouldn't have. I know a lot of people who owned guns that never took any form of safety training, hunter's ed, etc... and it's apparent how much more unsafe they are than myself when handling guns.

 

[snakewispera snr]

I agree. I believe that the 2nd amendment has to be opened up for interpretation relevant to today's society, and this almost religious interpretation of it now is getting out of control. There should definitely be more strict screenings to those purchasing guns, as well as much more detailed ways to track guns and ammunition back to it's original source. I'm sorry, but there is NO need for the casual person to have a fully automatic weapon at your disposal.

Now, I do feel like there should be circumstances that can allow certain people to own certain weapons, but it needs regulation. Whether it's guns killing people, or people killing people, there's too much killing, and the easy access to guns is clearly part of the problem.

As someone who used to hunt, and as someone who loved target practicing, I can relate to wanting to keep the right to bear arms. But I don't think that the amendment itself is being threatened at all, it just needs a more idealistic re-vamping that makes sense to society as it is.

I always took pride in feeling like I earned my right to use a gun, and that my safety practicing in shooting and handling my guns was important. But I was the only person of all of my friends that actually handled a gun properly, and there were plenty of people that I knew who had guns that definitely shouldn't have. I know a lot of people who owned guns that never took any form of safety training, hunter's ed, etc... and it's apparent how much more unsafe they are than myself when handling guns.

Two against 259,999,999........ LOL
Slowly your becoming Brits.... LMAO

 

[tsst]

I have one question for anyone that thinks gun control is a good idea. Why should I not be allowed to own, collect and shoot firearms?

 

[Tavia]

Because you are scary, problaby of a criminal bent and must likely clumsy. I don't know you, but you own a gun and you could be any of those things, so you you shouldn't be able to have something with the potential for that much damage.

Seriously, if they get rid of most gun ownership for most of the reasons usually given, I really think they should outlaw car ownership too and make it so there is easy public transport instead with very rigid rules governing who is allowed to drive them. There are too many people that would have trouble walking and talking at the same time who easily get access to a 1000 pounds of weapon that they use every day.

Which isn't to say that I don't think some gun regulation isn't a good thing, they just need to make some smarter rules that don't almost totally miss the criminal or insane people while majorly inhibiting the law abiding.

 

[Jeff Linkchorst]

I believe most gun owners still use them (guns) for there main purpose. To fill the freezer with game. It might be hard for others to understand. But to most of us that grew up with a gun in hand. It is a no brainer. As others had stated before that once big brother takes something from you. Your not getting it back. I wonder how many armed citizens. Stood up and fought for this country way back when.

 

[Chip]

“You won’t get gun control by disarming law-abiding citizens. There’s only one way to get real gun control: Disarm the thugs and the criminals, lock them up and if you don’t actually throw away the key, at least lose it for a long time… It’s a nasty truth, but those who seek to inflict harm are not fazed by gun controllers. I happen to know this from personal experience.”
~Ronald Reagan

 

[Michael823]

I have one question for anyone that thinks gun control is a good idea. Why should I not be allowed to own, collect and shoot firearms?

I do think that you, if properly permitted, should be able to own a firearm. I just feel that the term "firearm" is way more vague than it was when this amendment was created, and there needs to be regulations and restrictions that applies to today's society. I think that certain laws would actually benefit gun owners who responsible use them.

I just see no reason to have the average person be able to walk in and purchase a firearm, let alone an automatic weapon, a gun with a clip or magazine that can hold more than 10-12 shots, etc... Guns aren't toys, regardless of how fun they can be to shoot. Responsibility is the most important tradition of owning firearms, to me, and it should be the most sacred. They are designed to kill. I treated every aspect of shooting/hunting as a huge responsibility, and when I turned 12, I was excited to demonstrate that with hunter safety. But even such a basic course isn't required to own a gun. To me, that makes no sense. We have so many murders caused by guns, and so much advancement in forensics to try and put killers to jail, but it's completely pointless if the gun laws don't change. We can't just expect all of the bad people to go away, or to not attack us because "we have guns too". And we can't accept all of these murders on behalf of poor gun legislation as the price we pay for having the right to bear arms. Change is the only option.

I personally feel like people are far too selfish about this issue. I enjoyed, and still would, target shooting and hunting as much as the next person. I have no vested interest, politically, in banning guns, nor do I want to ban them. I just have a practicality about the danger of guns, and how easy it is for the wrong people to attain them, and a little common sense and responsibility with these laws would save so many lives.

 

[Michael823]

I believe most gun owners still use them (guns) for there main purpose. To fill the freezer with game. It might be hard for others to understand. But to most of us that grew up with a gun in hand. It is a no brainer. As others had stated before that once big brother takes something from you. Your not getting it back. I wonder how many armed citizens. Stood up and fought for this country way back when.

It's not about what big brother takes. It's about re-defining what it means to "bear arms". Why not commute in tanks to work, toss grenades into the sky on the 4th of July, or bury bouncing betty's to keep intruders off of our property?

They had no assault rifles back when the amendment was created, and I've never seen anyone need extended mags or rapid fire to fill the freezer. Trust me, I spent a lot of my life in a house that always had some sort of game that we hunted in the deep freezer, and placement of shots was how they got there, not because we dropped a herd in a hail of gunfire.

Personally, I'll give big brother his :uzi:, and should they ever move to ban actual firearms (the kind you would actually hunt with), I'll be there defending our rights :cheers:.

 

[Chip]

First, you CAN'T buy an automatic weapon as a civilian, that's a class 3 firearm. And my main objection to your post is that I hate when people are okay with banning magazines that hold more than so & so! Many, many guns are standard with magazines that hold more than ten rounds. And do you know how fast you can swap magazines? Maybe a second? None of your gun laws will keep us safer.

 

[Chip]

Personally, I'll give big brother his :uzi:, and should they ever move to ban actual firearms (the kind you would actually hunt with), I'll be there defending our rights :cheers:.

Psst. The second amendment isn't about hunting.