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"Guns are the cause"

I'm not sure what the answers are, either - just throwing ideas out there. I guess I was thinking more of a psych evaluation for the potential crazies. Not sure how that would work, either. I know I have read instances of where anti snake doctors testified in child custody hearings to sway custody against a snake owning parent, so doctors are definitely not above bias. OTOH, it is the docs who decide who is "crazy" enough to be confined, lose their driver's license, or other important freedoms.

What do you think would work to try to weed out the potential crazies whom people have already noticed, commented about, and were worried about, such as the guy in Tucson?
 
I think all you can do is document, report them to the police, get them Baker-acted and evaluated.
 
I'm not sure what the answers are, either - just throwing ideas out there. I guess I was thinking more of a psych evaluation for the potential crazies. Not sure how that would work, either. I know I have read instances of where anti snake doctors testified in child custody hearings to sway custody against a snake owning parent, so doctors are definitely not above bias. OTOH, it is the docs who decide who is "crazy" enough to be confined, lose their driver's license, or other important freedoms.

What do you think would work to try to weed out the potential crazies whom people have already noticed, commented about, and were worried about, such as the guy in Tucson?

This is the problem. I have a link here that really goes into some of these problems, and the prevailing anti-gun attitudes. It really opened my eyes. I would love for the president and all the anti-gun politicians to read this, and more importantly, to answer the facts stated, because there is no justification to what's happening.
This is a really good, if long, read. You'll also note that it's footnoted and all the facts are backed up with scientific evidence. If this issue is important to you, on either side of the argument, you should read this.
http://www.guncite.com/journals/tennmed.html
 
Our RIGHT to keep and bear arms was so important to the founders of this county that they insisted that it be included in the Bill of Rights that was to be a supporting document of the Constitution they had created. That RIGHT is the Second Amendment of that Bill of Rights.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So what exactly does that statement MEAN?

THE TEXT OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT
By J. Neil Schulman

J. Neil Schulman is the founder and president of SoftServ Publishing.

If you wanted to know all about the Big Bang, you'd ring up Carl Sagan, right? And if you wanted to know about desert warfare, the man to call would be Norman Schwartzkopf, no question about it. But who would you call if you wanted the top expert on American usage to tell you the meaning of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution?

That was the question I asked A.C. Brocki, editorial coordinator of the Los Angeles Unified School District and formerly senior editor at Houghton Mifflin Publishers -- who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on English usage in the Los Angeles school system. Mr. Brocki told me to get in touch with Roy Copperud, a retired professor of journalism at the University of Southern California and the author of American Usage and Style. The Consensus.

A little research lent support to Brocki's opinion of Professor Copperud's expertise.

Roy Copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on a distinguished seventeen-year career teaching journalism at USC. Since 1952, Copperud has been writing a column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for Editor and Publisher, a weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field.

He's on the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary, and Merriam Webster's Usage Dictionary frequently cites him as an expert. Copperud's fifth book on usage, American Usage and Style: The Consensus, has been in continuous print since 1981, and is the winner of the Association of American Publisher's Humanities Award.

That sounds like an expert to me.

After a brief telephone call to Professor Copperud in which I introduced myself but did not give him any indication of why I was interested, I sent the following letter:

"I am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in English usage, to analyze the text of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, and extract the intent from the text.

"The text of the Second Amendment is, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

"The debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,' is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause, with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence, 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

"I would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy, but be restricted entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent. Further, since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the Second Amendment, I ask that whatever analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation, and even be
willing to testify under oath to support, if necessary."

My letter framed several questions about the text of the Second Amendment, then concluded:

"I realize that I am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task with this letter. I am doing so because, as a citizen, I believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the Second Amendment. While I ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results, I ask that you do this because of that importance."

Questions and Answers

After several more letters and phone calls, in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis, but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the Second Amendment, gun control, or any other political subject, Professor Copperud sent me the following analysis (into which I have it italicized my questions for the sake of clarity):

The words "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state," contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of July 26, 1991, constitutes a present participle, rather than a clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying "militia," which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject "the right," verb "shall"). The right to keep and bear arms is asserted as
essential for maintaining a militia.

In reply to your numbered questions:

(1) Can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to "a well-regulated militia"?

The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people.

(2) Is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" granted by the words of the Second Amendment, or does the Second Amendment assume a pre-existing right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state that such right "shall not be infringed"?

The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia.

(3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a wellregulated militia, is, in fact, necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" null and void?

No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence.

(4) Does the clause 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, " grant a right to the government to place conditions on the "right of the people to keep and bear arms, " or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?

The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia.

(5) Which of the following does the phrase "well-regulated militia" mean: "well-equipped, " "well-organized," "well-drilled, " "well-educated, " or "subject to regulations of a superior authority"?


The phrase means "subject to regulations of a superior authority;" this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military.

(6) If at all possible, I would ask you to take into account the changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written two-hundred years ago, but not take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors, unless those issues cannot be clearly separated.

To the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment. If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged."

(7) As a "scientific control" on this analysis, I would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the Second Amendment to the following sentence:

"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed."

My questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be,

(A) Is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence and the way the words modify each other identical to the Second Amendment's sentence?; and

(B) Could this sentence be interpreted to restrict "the right of the people to keep and read Books" only to "a well-educated electorate" -- for example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?


(A) Your "scientific control" sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure.

(B) There is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation.

Concluding Comment

Professor Copperud had only one additional comment, which he placed in his cover letter: "With well-known human curiosity, I made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used, but was unable to reach any conclusion."

So now we have been told by one of the top experts on American usage what many knew all along: the Constitution of the United States unconditionally protects the people's right to keep and bear arms, forbidding all governments formed under the Constitution from abridging that right.

As I write this, the attempted coup against constitutional government in the Soviet Union has failed, apparently because the will of the people in that part of the world to be free from capricious tyranny is stronger than the old guard's desire to maintain a monopoly on dictatorial power.

And here in the United States, elected lawmakers, judges, and appointed officials who are pledged to defend the Constitution of the United States ignore, marginalize, or prevaricate about the Second Amendment routinely. American citizens are put in American prisons for carrying arms, owning arms of forbidden sorts, or failing to satisfy bureaucratic requirements regarding the owning and carrying of firearms -- all of which is an abridgement of the unconditional right of the people to keep and bear arms, guaranteed by the Constitution. Even the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), staunch defender of the rest of the Bill of Rights, stands by and does nothing.

It seems it is up to those who believe in the right to keep and bear arms to preserve that right. No one else will. No one else can. Will we beg our elected representatives not to take away our rights, and continue regarding them as representing us if they do? Will we continue obeying judges who decide that the Second Amendment doesn't mean what it says it means but means whatever they say it means in their Orwellian doublespeak?

Or will we simply keep and bear the arms of our choice, as the Constitution of the United States promises us we can, and pledge that we will defend that promise with our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor?

http://www.saf.org/Journal/4/4_Schulman.pdf

So, quite frankly, how can the "right to keep and bear arms" be a RIGHT if the government can demand increasingly stringent stipulations needing to be met before you can exercise this "right"? Can anyone here give me a definition of the term "shall not be infringed" that is consistent with how the government treats this "right"?
 
Can anyone here give me a definition of the term "shall not be infringed" that is consistent with how the government treats this "right"?

No. Because the government currently infringes on the rights of law-abiding citizens who are capable of responsibly handling a firearm.

I am very much against that.

I do however accept the need to prohibit people with valid mental diseases or disorders that make them prone to violence, and I accept the need to prohibit criminals who have, in the past, utilized guns to do violence.

Just out of curiosity... how does Walmart know if a person has a criminal history? Is that information computerized somewhere, as part of their penal record??

Would it not be possible to include people with diagnosed mental disorders (like the VT shooter) on a list like that? I know people squawk about that being a violation of privacy rights, but is an individual persons right to privacy more important than the rights of his neighbors, classmates and family to be safe?
 
Nothing anyone says or does or bans will fix this problem IMO. Whack-jobs who want guns to shoot up random people will get their hands on them. Although it does seem to happen in the US more than anywhere which is upsetting.
 
No. Because the government currently infringes on the rights of law-abiding citizens who are capable of responsibly handling a firearm.

I am very much against that.

I do however accept the need to prohibit people with valid mental diseases or disorders that make them prone to violence, and I accept the need to prohibit criminals who have, in the past, utilized guns to do violence.

Just out of curiosity... how does Walmart know if a person has a criminal history? Is that information computerized somewhere, as part of their penal record??

Would it not be possible to include people with diagnosed mental disorders (like the VT shooter) on a list like that? I know people squawk about that being a violation of privacy rights, but is an individual persons right to privacy more important than the rights of his neighbors, classmates and family to be safe?

If you have any history of mental illness it is sent into BATF and put into their system so you cannot purchase a fire arm. I have a few friends that are FFLs and they all have told me they have had people try to buy a gun and the ATF said no and it turned out to be because in their past they had a case where they were deemed mentally ill. They dont tell the ATF what exactly your mental illness was (supposable any way) but that you are unfit to purchase a fire arm. Or so I have been told by a few different FFL holders.
 
Which mental disorders would you exclude from gun ownership?

Not being a psychiatrist, I don't have an answer to that. As a citizen, I would not want fellow citizens who have disorders that make them unstable or prone to violence to have access to firearms. But I haven't a clue what those would be.
 
Well, everybody always blames the guns and the video games and everything.... my linguistics professor pointed out some statistics the other day about how simulated violence tends to increase violence among individuals who are already violent and tends to decrease violence among non-violent individuals.
 
Well, everybody always blames the guns and the video games and everything.... my linguistics professor pointed out some statistics the other day about how simulated violence tends to increase violence among individuals who are already violent and tends to decrease violence among non-violent individuals.

That's very interesting. I played a lot of Doom, Mortal Kombat and James Bond style shooter games from middle school through college, and I certainly never felt compelled to go out and shoot people.
 
I have been diagnosed with Combat related PTSD, that is a mental disorder. Should I not be allowed to buy guns? I will be the first to admit that my fight or flight response has tended to be towards the fight side, especially when it has something to do with protecting my loved ones and friends, or just anyone who is in danger really. But, why should I not be able to buy a gun if I wanted to? Have I ever wanted to shoot someone enough to actually do it? No. Have I shot someone? Yes, in a combat zone. I do not wish anyone to get shot by my hand or any other, It is a very rough experience that I do not wish on anyone. It has scared me for the rest of my life, mostly because I know that I am actually capable of taking another life. In fact, every time I talk about it, I fight back tears, even though I knew there was no way out of shooting those guys, It is not something that I enjoy going back to.

If there were a law stating people with mental disorders could not own a gun, I would be on that list, because that is exactly what PTSD is. I am not sure who would write a list, but I know that most people with PTSD are prone to violence and are mostly hyper alert, always wary. I mean, sometimes it is hard to even talk to people at work without being on edge, and I find myself lumping customers into groups of how dangerous they can be, just by how they look.... I know I shouldn't, but I do.
 
I'm listening to the Alan Hunt show right now. He's taking calls about "Guns in your church makes you feel ___________." One guy calls up and Alan says, "Do you carry a gun in church?" The guy says "No, I don't feel the need to. But the first time something happens, you can bet your bippy I'm bringing one next time!" Alan's view point is if you outlaw guns in church, only the crazies are going to have guns. If you outlaw guns on campus, only crazies will have guns. I like his thinking.
 
Actually, if I were to decide to lead a life of crime, I certainly would be armed, and the places I would be most inclined to forage for victims would be in those areas where guns are against the law. The odds would be FAR in my favor for such encounters. Quite likely any victim I choose would be unarmed. And for the odd scofflaw that wasn't, the odds would STILL be in my favor. Why? Because I would simply point out that they cannot detain and turn me in to the law because now they too are breaking the law and the penalty to them would likely be just as severe as my crime. It would be best for both of us to just walk away clean and call it a day rather than sharing a jail cell together. So I'm free to try again later with another victim in some other "gun free zone" and hope my luck is better there.

So as a criminal, "gun free zones" would be a God send.... Not only would I have a victim rich environment of likely defenseless souls, but I have a "get out of jail free" card at my disposal if someone IS armed.

Not that I am seriously considering a life of crime, but certainly others not quite so reluctant to take that path have thought this through as well.
 
Actually, if I were to decide to lead a life of crime, I certainly would be armed, and the places I would be most inclined to forage for victims would be in those areas where guns are against the law. The odds would be FAR in my favor for such encounters. Quite likely any victim I choose would be unarmed. And for the odd scofflaw that wasn't, the odds would STILL be in my favor. Why? Because I would simply point out that they cannot detain and turn me in to the law because now they too are breaking the law and the penalty to them would likely be just as severe as my crime. It would be best for both of us to just walk away clean and call it a day rather than sharing a jail cell together. So I'm free to try again later with another victim in some other "gun free zone" and hope my luck is better there.

So as a criminal, "gun free zones" would be a God send.... Not only would I have a victim rich environment of likely defenseless souls, but I have a "get out of jail free" card at my disposal if someone IS armed.

Not that I am seriously considering a life of crime, but certainly others not quite so reluctant to take that path have thought this through as well.

You know, that has crossed my mind too.
In fact, I just heard that a senator, or someone high in politics for NM is proposing that teachers can Conceal Carry onto school grounds now. I know that it would definitely change the dynamic of the "gang" members who have decided that Alamogordo and Las Cruces schools are great targets for their shootouts. Get a couple of teachers who know what they are doing with a pistol and the people who do decide it is a good idea to go shooting up a school, probably won't make it out of there alive.
 
Well, I know that when I was in school, their were NO gun-free zones at schools and we NEVER had shootouts and the like taking place. Matter of fact, back then you could buy guns just about anywhere, including Sears. You could buy ammunition at your corner 7-11 stores. If someone was going hunting after school, they normally had their gun in their car with them. Guns and their availability is NOT the issue, friends. Somewhere along the road PEOPLE changed, not the guns. As a matter of fact, based on the evidence, someone COULD make a pretty strong case that the reduced public exposure and utility of guns along with the more stringent laws against guns CREATED the violence we see today. Most likely not true, of course, but there does appear to be a coincidental and circumstantial correlation... Hmm, do you think drugs and the associated gangs would be such a violence issue if drugs were not illegal? Maybe there is something to this after all..... :shrugs:

Which brings up another point. People talk about outlawing guns completely and believe that will solve this perceived problem. So tell me, how well has that plan worked out with outlawing drugs and other controlled substances?
 
Well, I know that when I was in school... If someone was going hunting after school, they normally had their gun in their car with them.



I graduated high school in 1997 in rural virginia and kids could still keep the rifle in the car/truck as long as it wasn't loaded...during deer and turkey season. No one ever check to see if they were loaded...but probably most were. No school shootings every happened there.

It's not about access to guns. It's about personal responsiblity. Our new generations don't seem to have any.
 
EXCELLENT points, Rich!

I was just reading the Sunday paper last night, and it was discussing the escalating drug war violence in Mexico, which of course, spills over to the US at times. All I can think of is that it sure would take away A LOT of their profit if drugs were legalized, regulated, and taxed, much like alcohol. I sure don't hear about "alcohol lords" causing problems here or anywhere else. That is, EXCEPT in history books, during alcohol Prohibition. Hmmm...what could that mean?
 
Yes and even though guns were hanging in back windows at school if there was a problem you handled it toe to toe with no weapons. Nobody shot anyone. Nobody knifed anyone. The most that happened was a fat lip or black eye. We didn't have metal detectors at school either. People changed not the guns! :shrugs:
 
I graduated high school in 1970...

The "bad kids" were those who hung out in the bathroom, smoking cigarettes. I am sure there must have been some drug use, but my friends and I never saw it. There were some fist fights. But during all of my school years, I never saw or heard of anyone using a knife, gun, or anything other than fists, at my school, or any other school. And I don't remember anyone ever being suspended for drugs or weapons, only for fistfights or smoking. That is not to say it NEVER happened. I can't be sure of that. I only know that I never heard about it if it did happen.

Things have certainly changed...
 
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