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His first live one!

I live in the UK and over here it is illegal to feed a live vertebrate to another vertebrate - even if i wanted to live feed i wouldn't be able too. The Animal Welfare Act bans it - mostly because it is terrible welfare for both parties - both become incredibly stressed and it is very dangerous for both the prey and the predator if done even a tiny bit wrong. A lot of captive kept/bred animals don't possess all of the instincts they need to kill prey anymore either thanks to captive breeding slowly domesticating the animal.
To be honest i only ever feed my snake pre-killed mice, mostly because of the law and for convenience. I can buy a large number in bulk and just grab one out of the freezer as and when. I don't see the need to feed live food to a snake that's accustomed to taking pre-killed ones. If the snake won't feed on pre-killed ones, you don't need to immediately feed live either. Simply waiting till it is more hungry, warming the rodent and waving it around often does the trick, and if not exposing brain matter in a pre-killed rodent naturally entices the snake to eat. Force-feeding can be done in desperate circumstances.
However if you decide that you prefer to feed live food then that is entirely your choice. Just make sure to check it is legal in your country/state and ensure to do it safely and as humanely as possible 100% of the time.
 
Nanci said:
You've been told by the site owner, Rich Z, not to troll. You should probably be careful.
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I know, he put me in my place. Right now I am being dead honest and not just trying to get a rise out of you guys.
If you want censorship then go ahead and ban me. I will still speak my mind because this forum needs some balance regarding this argument.
 
wow! just wanted some feedback on if maybe he was to small to start live feeding? or if i didnt do something right to get him ready to eat. a video was the best way for people to see what i saw and say "hey he looks to small and young to start that" not to be told i am a bad person or a terrible pet owner!
 
7legion77 said:
The advantages of F/T vs frozen aren't as black and white as people on here make it seem. I admire their altruism, but feeding live doesn't make us evil/cruel/irresponsible in any way, it is more propaganda than sound, rational advice.
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Yes it is.

Pros for F/T:
Cheaper, especially if you have multiple snakes.
Always able to have correct prey size on hand.
No potential for injury to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
No potential for injury to snake if it 'misses' or coils incorrectly.
Significantly less risk as a source for parasites.

Cons:
Other people in household may not like having numerous rodents in the freezer.

Pros for feeding P/K:
No potential for injury to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
No potential for injury to snake if it 'misses' or coils incorrectly.
Can be frozen if snake is uninterested, for later use.

Cons:
Can get expensive if you have multiple snakes and don't breed your own.
Stinky mouse smell if you do breed your own.
May not have correct prey size.

Pros for feeding live:
None.

Cons:
Potential for injury or death to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
Potential for injury or death to snake if it misses or coils incorrectly.
Potential for transmissible parasites, resulting in vet bills.
Housing for mouse in case snake is 'uninterested' unless breeding your own.
May not have correct prey size.
Expensive, especially for multiple snakes, unless breeding your own.


Feeding live should be a last resort, "my snake absolutely won't eat anything else" situation.

And for the emotional part, while Legion there is incapable of empathy for mice, do please keep in mind that this is a living feeling creature you are feeding to your snake. It can feel terror and pain. If it is going to die anyway, shouldn't that death be painless and free from fear?
 
guagerage said:
wow! just wanted some feedback on if maybe he was to small to start live feeding? or if i didnt do something right to get him ready to eat. a video was the best way for people to see what i saw and say "hey he looks to small and young to start that" not to be told i am a bad person or a terrible pet owner!
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He looks like the type that will not do well with live. (My posts actually address this directly.)

Feed him pre-killed if you must.

It's clear by his behavior he is used to frozen/thawed.

A mouse with teeth will injure your snake, based on the response he showed in the video.
 
Guag, I have told you that I advise you first get him to be a more aggressive feeder. Many people get angered by this topic but some of us do want to help you. Please read each and every comment as education is all we can offer at this point. :) Sorry about this. The community gets fired up about this more than any other topic and I apologize. Please do not think bad of us for this. We only want best for the snake and for you as an owner
 
Can we please just let this die now? Everyone has said thier two cents and it would probably be better for everyone around if the thread just died in its own suffocation. Lets be friends not the hord that chased Frankenstien.
 
jovamabob said:
I live in the UK and over here it is illegal to feed a live vertebrate to another vertebrate - even if i wanted to live feed i wouldn't be able too. The Animal Welfare Act bans it - mostly because it is terrible welfare for both parties - both become incredibly stressed and it is very dangerous for both the prey and the predator if done even a tiny bit wrong. A lot of captive kept/bred animals don't possess all of the instincts they need to kill prey anymore either thanks to captive breeding slowly domesticating the animal.
To be honest i only ever feed my snake pre-killed mice, mostly because of the law and for convenience. I can buy a large number in bulk and just grab one out of the freezer as and when. I don't see the need to feed live food to a snake that's accustomed to taking pre-killed ones. If the snake won't feed on pre-killed ones, you don't need to immediately feed live either. Simply waiting till it is more hungry, warming the rodent and waving it around often does the trick, and if not exposing brain matter in a pre-killed rodent naturally entices the snake to eat. Force-feeding can be done in desperate circumstances.
However if you decide that you prefer to feed live food then that is entirely your choice. Just make sure to check it is legal in your country/state and ensure to do it safely and as humanely as possible 100% of the time.
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That's an excellent answer, but incorrect. It is not illegal here, if it can be proved that it is to feed a snake that would otherwise be starving to death. It must not be done in public or cause unneccesary suffering. It must be under the advice of a veternarian and be deemed an exceptional circumstance. Force-feeding is in itself stressful to the snake and can actually make the transition to independent feeding more difficult.
 
guagerage said:
wow! just wanted some feedback on if maybe he was to small to start live feeding? or if i didnt do something right to get him ready to eat. a video was the best way for people to see what i saw and say "hey he looks to small and young to start that" not to be told i am a bad person or a terrible pet owner!
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Why do you want to feed live?
 
Shiari said:
Yes it is.

Pros for F/T:
Cheaper, especially if you have multiple snakes.
Always able to have correct prey size on hand.
No potential for injury to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
No potential for injury to snake if it 'misses' or coils incorrectly.
Significantly less risk as a source for parasites.

Cons:
Other people in household may not like having numerous rodents in the freezer.

Pros for feeding P/K:
No potential for injury to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
No potential for injury to snake if it 'misses' or coils incorrectly.
Can be frozen if snake is uninterested, for later use.

Cons:
Can get expensive if you have multiple snakes and don't breed your own.
Stinky mouse smell if you do breed your own.
May not have correct prey size.

Pros for feeding live:
None.

Cons:
Potential for injury or death to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
Potential for injury or death to snake if it misses or coils incorrectly.
Potential for transmissible parasites, resulting in vet bills.
Housing for mouse in case snake is 'uninterested' unless breeding your own.
May not have correct prey size.
Expensive, especially for multiple snakes, unless breeding your own.


Feeding live should be a last resort, "my snake absolutely won't eat anything else" situation.

And for the emotional part, while Legion there is incapable of empathy for mice, do please keep in mind that this is a living feeling creature you are feeding to your snake. It can feel terror and pain. If it is going to die anyway, shouldn't that death be painless and free from fear?
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:) It's alright Shiari. Maybe only a bad experience may get him to understand. We do not want him to hate the site for this as we all know the amazing advice thar our community has to offer. We did, after all spawn the munson plan.
 
well putting in my 2 cents.............

I beleive that any snake that will eat killed food (fresh or frozen) should be fed killed food. Reptile vets are expensive and snake-skin takes FOREVER to heal properly. I personally could find way better ways to spend a couple hundred dollars than to vet my snake for a completely avoidable injury.
 
Nanci said:
Whenever a new person comes on here and says they "know the risks," it is highly doubtful that they do. IF they researched everything they need to know about when live feeding is and is not indicated, they wouldn't be on here asking for advice or looking for pointers in the first place.

You CANNOT ensure that live feeding has a safe outcome. You can do your best to limit the risk of injury to the snake. You can't ensure the snake will not be injured.

And you are still needlessly torturing a live animal, the prey.

And you are still exposing the snake to parasites.

Which leads us to the question, what kind of person knowingly accepts these risks for the animal who depends on him for his safety and well-being when it isn't absolutely necessary?
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I share your opinions of feeding live. In fact, I would say mine are of a carbon copy to yours. That's my disclaimer. I agree with you.

That being said, I don't agree when threads whose subject matters differ from the majority opinion are intercepted by slews of arguments. As of now, feeding live is not illegal in the United States, and therefore is still an opinion and a choice. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I say that earnestly!), but I don't think there is a rule on this site stating that we are not to discuss matters in which the majority, or mods, do not condone. I implore you to understand that I say that respectfully and without an ounce of malice.

I think there's a fine line between presenting facts and butting out those with different mindsets from discussing certain matters. That line seems to be crossed quite frequently. As I said, because feeding live is not illegal, it's still a choice we have to make. It makes me uncomfortable that anyone possessing a varying opinion is essentially prevented from discussing it.

On a separate note, I am not familiar with the previous discussions involving 7legion, but I didn't think his comments in this particular thread were any more inflammatory or bating than anything else that was being said. It certainly wasn't the popular opinion, but in no way did I consider it "troll-like"
 
Yay sick entertainment! I watched your video, all of it. Because I am not scared nor do I have any misconceptions about the lives and deaths of snakes and their prey in the wild. To bad this is turning out to be a debate on live vs thaw. I think what you are going for is for others to watch your video and then comment. Well it looked like Barry earned his dinner. He had a bit of a time with that pinky. Job well done though! Nicely made video. Barry did not do much for constricting and it looked to me like the mouse was fighting all the way. I dont know if corns have to learn to constrict or not. Mine takes prekilled and doesnt constrict at all, but if I jig the mouse and twirl it a bit he will constrict sort of half ass. I dont have much for advice for you. You wanted to see your Barry eat a live pinky and it did him no harm. You are not the first. Whether or not that was a bad thing to do can be discussed in another thread. IMHO Cheers!
 
hetfeildfan said:
Yay sick entertainment! I watched your video, all of it. Because I am not scared nor do I have any misconceptions about the lives and deaths of snakes and their prey in the wild. To bad this is turning out to be a debate on live vs thaw. I think what you are going for is for others to watch your video and then comment. Well it looked like Barry earned his dinner. He had a bit of a time with that pinky. Job well done though! Nicely made video. Barry did not do much for constricting and it looked to me like the mouse was fighting all the way. I dont know if corns have to learn to constrict or not. Mine takes prekilled and doesnt constrict at all, but if I jig the mouse and twirl it a bit he will constrict sort of half ass. I dont have much for advice for you. You wanted to see your Barry eat a live pinky and it did him no harm. You are not the first. Whether or not that was a bad thing to do can be discussed in another thread. IMHO Cheers!
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It is unfortunatly nessicary for him to constrict if they eat live. They must eat head first and constrict otherwise they are in very much danger!
 
Lyion said:
It is unfortunatly nessicary for him to constrict if they eat live. They must eat head first and constrict otherwise they are in very much danger!
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Lyion is right.

If that mouse had teeth at all, it would be game over for Barry.

Barry did everything wrong and would have been injured.
 
guagerage said:
i'm the michael vick of cornsnakes for feeding him a live mouse.
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No. Easy now, don't get ahead of yourself.

Little Barry just seems like a bad candidate for live. I doubt any amount of "training or conditioning" will change his response.

Dangle a f/t or pre-killed mouse. He may one day constrict, just tug it a little and it will be just as stimulating for him.

I have full grown corns that have never constricted a single prey item. Barry seems like a dainty eater too.
 
guagerage said:
i'm the michael vick of cornsnakes for feeding him a live mouse.
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I am sorry but I still think even though most don't agree with this that there is a better way of debating this or giving advice than to mercilessly pounce on someone. And a better way of accepting advice when offered.
 
no-one said that at all!! All wer're saying is according to the video, your particular snake does not feed in a way that would be safe to offer live prey. If he does not grab it by the head, then his meal can bite back and do considerable, possibly fatal damage (when on larger prey of course!!) If he does not constrict it to kill it, the same can happen.

No one called you horrible (ie: Micheal Vick) just that your particular snake eats in such a way that live food could be very dangerous to him and very expensive for you.
 
guagerage said:
i'm the michael vick of cornsnakes for feeding him a live mouse.
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Not in any way. But you were fairly uninformed about it. There are no objective benefits to your snake to feed live, and plenty of potential consequences. I have fed live when absolutely necessary, always pinkies, and it always horrifies me/gives me the heebyjeebies because my babies didn't kill it first either. I could hear it squeaking in pain and terror from *inside* my snake. And being a vet tech, I know exactly what it was going through before it finally expired.

Have you ever vomited and had stomach acid end up inside your sinuses? That horrible burning pain? Well... that's what the pinkies experience, basically inside and out, before they finally die from shock or asphyxiate.

We, as human beings, are better than that and should actively work to prevent such unless there is no other way.
 
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