hybrids vs. nonhybrids

[Kokopelli]

But it ISN'T done that way. These animals have been given TRADE NAMES, which are accepted and used throughout the community.

You hit the nail right there- THROUGHOUT THE COMMUNITY. A new keeper is not necessarily a part of the community.
If you insist on comparing snakes to products- most companies allow a refund if the product is deemed defected. Or offer a replacement if the buyer is not pleased with his purchase.

Snakes however are inherently different from electronics and whatever- as such I really do believe that a breeder needs to provide different information that what a company does when it offers a product and vice versa.

There -is- a difference here. We're selling animals, not vacuum cleaners, I think that the general notion of "the buyer should be held responsible" should not apply to animals. If a person comes up to the stand and buys a burmese python- should you not make sure that he is aware of the size potential of the animal? How'bout venomous/aggressive/difficult to keep snakes?

When we sell an animal, every side should act as though the other is ignorant- a customer should read all he can prior to buying, and a seller should make sure the buyer is informed on what he is getting. Not because there's a definite wrong or right here- but because the snake is the real "victim" if it becomes unwanted or in incapable hands. And us, as breeders, should care enough to do what we can in order to prevent that.

 

[wade]

You guys have made a long conversation out of this and I hope by now you can see that there is really not going to be an answer to this. Chris’s argument that a Creamsicle is a hybrid is valid. Kokopelli’s argument that not everyone knows that is also true. We all agree that intentionally misleading advertisement is wrong. But to label a Creamsicle as such is not incorrect nor do I believe it to be a deception.

You can spend as much time as you would like with new snake owners and they will still go away with misunderstandings and unanswered questions. I don’t think that is the fault of the seller or the buyer; it is simply the result of limited time and a multitude of information.

Right or wrong, snakes will be labeled as creamsicles and rootbeers. It has become as common as snows and ghosts. When it comes to “designer” snakes, the people are looking for a certain look with certain qualities. Bloodlines are not the main issue when you buy a “pretty” snake that grows to 4 or 5 feet long with a generally mild personality and reasonably easy to care for. Being part ratsnake or part kingsnake does not change those qualities. The implication is that a Creamsicle is in some way inferior to a ghost and that someone is trying to sell you a lemon. That isn’t the case.

Creamsicles are worth what the market dictates. Ghosts sell for market value. Who is getting cheated? What is my motivation to try and trick you into buying a hybrid? You want a really pretty snake? Here I have one it is called a Rootbeer Corn.

 

[Kokopelli]

I concur that there's no definite conclusion.
I can only say that for some people, it is simply easier to breed whatever snakes they manage to get(here for example it's not easy to get certain types of snakes, so people breed different species together because it's cheaper than actually waiting, buying a pure snake, and than breed).

My point does not revolve the argument of who is right or wrong. I simply am hoping to remind people that we're dealing with animals and though time shortage and human error are real and existing factors, we should try to minimize them- not because we want to, but because we want to make sure that the snake is taken care of, and is not bred on in a manner which can "contaminate" the market with future generation of hybrids unknowingly bred by misinformed owners. These factors are indeed inevitable when we sell products. But we're talking about animals, animals we have kept, watched hatching and nurtured. Should we really look at selling them from a business only point of view where ignorance and shortage of time are acceptable reasons for "unsuccessful sales"?
Should we not aspire to minimize them? Not for our sake, and not for their sake- but for our animal's sake

PS 1000'th post, yay

 

[Susan]

You hit the nail right there- THROUGHOUT THE COMMUNITY. A new keeper is not necessarily a part of the community.
If you insist on comparing snakes to products- most companies allow a refund if the product is deemed defected. Or offer a replacement if the buyer is not pleased with his purchase.

Snakes however are inherently different from electronics and whatever- as such I really do believe that a breeder needs to provide different information that what a company does when it offers a product and vice versa.

There -is- a difference here. We're selling animals, not vacuum cleaners, I think that the general notion of "the buyer should be held responsible" should not apply to animals. If a person comes up to the stand and buys a burmese python- should you not make sure that he is aware of the size potential of the animal? How'bout venomous/aggressive/difficult to keep snakes?

When we sell an animal, every side should act as though the other is ignorant- a customer should read all he can prior to buying, and a seller should make sure the buyer is informed on what he is getting. Not because there's a definite wrong or right here- but because the snake is the real "victim" if it becomes unwanted or in incapable hands. And us, as breeders, should care enough to do what we can in order to prevent that.

I hate having to use a dog analogy again, but it will serve the purpose.

Someone walks into a pet shop that has puppies of 20 different breeds. Is the buyer's or the seller's responsibility to make sure the buyer knows everything about every breed? Or do you think the buyer has some responsibility to at least ask if the shih tzu and the mastiff have the same needs or to ask exactly what a shiba inu is? If that person simply looks at the toy poodle and says "I'll take it", one would assume that person knows that a toy poodle is going to need some sort of grooming and that it won't be very good at herding cattle. If that person has taken a fancy to the shiba inu simply based upon it's looks and the name, and then did not ask the pet shop how large it got or if it was a good family dog that got along with other pets, I sure wouldn't blame the pet shop when that buyer realizes the dog has trouble around non-family members and becomes hyper-active and destructive due to living in an apartment.

The same applies to snakes, IMO. Every snake breeder website I have visited specifically mentions what they breed. If there are multiple species,they are always grouped under specific categories, such as boas, pythons, king snakes, corn snakes, bull snakes, and yes, even hybrids. If nothing more, the hybrids are listed under "other snakes", but not with the rest of the corn snakes nor with the king snakes (in regards to jungle corns). I know that at shows, it is more difficult to isolate the different species on a small table, but I don't recall seeing any vendor that didn't at least make an effort to keep like species together. As long as the snakes are labeled with a recognized name, the seller has done all they need to do at that moment. I saw many a snake with NO label at all last year at Daytona. Do you think a potential buyer would ask what something was before buying it if they had no prior clue as to what it was?

Ignorance is never an excuse, especially when it comes to the care of an animal. If someone wanted to purchase one of my snakes, but they didn't have enough knowledge to ask the right questions, I would refuse to sell the snake until said person HAD enough knowledge to ask questions. THAT is the proper responsibility of the seller, IMO.

 

[Kokopelli]

I think that you should make a potential buyer aware that one puppy can end up weighting 160 pounds or 5 pounds.
Or if it's a cross-breed or pure breed. I find if difficult to believe that such things aren't mentioned.
On the contrary, pure bred dogs are sold for a deal more and are presented as such

 

[Susan]

I think that you should make a potential buyer aware that one puppy can end up weighting 160 pounds or 5 pounds.
Or if it's a cross-breed or pure breed. I find if difficult to believe that such things aren't mentioned.
On the contrary, pure bred dogs are sold for a deal more and are presented as such

I'm sorry, but most people make the assumption that other people have more than the IQ of a leaf of lettuce. If someone doesn't understand the size difference between the chihuahua puppy and the mastiff puppy, they have no business even thinking about owning a dog.

It has nothing to do with what anything is labeled. It has to do with the buyer having enough knowledge to make an intelligent decision and not needing to have that knowledge spoon-feed to him. God helps those that help themselves. I will not cater to the needs of the unintelligent in this world. They need to start to use the brains that God gave them. I will help them all I can, but they need to tell me that they are interested in learning. I won't waste my time. Unfortunately, something as simple as common sense is fast becoming a thing of the past.

Unfortunately, I see too many people with pets of all kinds that don't have a clue. Part of my job as a veterinary technician is to try to teach these people about the proper care of their pets. Most refuse to even listen to my advice, firmly believing that they already know more than I or the vet could ever know and that all we are interested in is making money. It's akin to beating a dead horse...almost like this thread.

 

[Kokopelli]

and again I will insist that snakes are a deal less "common knowledge" than most pets are. Therefore the likelihood of keepers with sincere intents still being ignorant about the names of morphs, hybrids and species is higher than the comparisons presented so far.

 

[ForkedTung]

ForkedTung, you're analogy is flawed.

The PHRASE "Jungle Corn", in it's ENTIRETY, is a term used SOLELY for the description of hybrid king/corn snakes. It is not an adjective and a noun, it is a name...a name SOLELY CREATED to describe these hybrids. It's not a Jungle, it's a Jungle Corn. It's not a corn, it's a Jungle Corn. The words are used together as a name, not independantly. Seperated the words have completely different meanings and uses in and out of the snake community. Together, they mean only ONE THING...hybrid.

Uhhmm Chris, It can't be a flawed analogy because it's not an analogy. As for the name "Jungle Corn", in it's ENTIRETY, yes you can call it a name if you want, but what is it a name for? it is a name that describes a type of hybrid. It modifies the noun, the unspoken/unwritten noun that for some reason is being treated like a four letter word. HYBRID!



I agree to disagree.

 

[tyflier]

and again I will insist that snakes are a deal less "common knowledge" than most pets are. Therefore the likelihood of keepers with sincere intents still being ignorant about the names of morphs, hybrids and species is higher than the comparisons presented so far.

Sure...snakes are less common...to people that have no interest in keeping snakes. But a person that goes to a snake show, looks at snake websites, and walks into a pet shop interested in buying a snake, has a responsibility to themselves and the animals to LEARN SOMETHING about them before making a purchase.

Being a hybrid does NOT change the care requirements of a Jungle Corn OR a Creamsicle, so all of the "for the benefit of the snake" arguments are straight bunk, IMO. The care is the same for a Cal king as it is for a cornsnake as it is for a Jungle Corn, so...what basis does that argument have?

The ONLY basis that argument has is from someone that makes mistakes in GENERAL HUSBANDRY (such as co-habbing) and learns the hard way that a Jungle Corn will eat a ghost corn for dinner. That has NOTHING to do with PROPER care, and EVERYTHING to do with buyer ignorance.

As a breeder, if I am asked about co-habbing, I do NOT recommend it for ANY species I deal with...and I tell customers that. So when they take their two cornsa home and co-hab and one dies...is it still my fault?

Ultimately, I do everything I can to HELP my customers learn. If they ask...I answer. I will not treat every person interested in buying a snake as if they are as dumb as a box of rocks. I prefer to treat people with a modicum of respect...as if they are moderattely intelligent and have done the MOST BASIC RESEARCH before making a purchase.

Jen--
Nothing has changed. I DO care about the purity of cornsnakes. This is why I have every intention of labeling every single hybrid I sell as a hybrid...by using accepted trade names FOR that hybrid. I will also answer any and all questions regarding the hybrids, like I would regarding kings or corns. I will also keep track of ALL lineage records, so in the event a customer ASKS, I can providce exact percentages of the species involved in the hybrids.

I care about my animals and my integrity, and I will track every aspect of my breedings for hybrids. I simply won't provide information that isn't weanted, needed, or requested by the purchaser. Buyers that really care about the mix can ask, and they will know. Buyer's that don't care don't want to be flooded with it, IMO...

 

[tyflier]

Uhhmm Chris, It can't be a flawed analogy because it's not an analogy. As for the name "Jungle Corn", in it's ENTIRETY, yes you can call it a name if you want, but what is it a name for? it is a name that describes a type of hybrid. It modifies the noun, the unspoken/unwritten noun that for some reason is being treated like a four letter word. HYBRID!



I agree to disagree.

If it were being treated like a 4-letter word...they wouldn't be labled with a trade name that is specifically known to be that of a hybrid. They would be advertised as a morph, or a new species...not a hybrid.

And it IS a "name". What else would it be? It's a name...a label...SPECIFICALLY used for hybrids. It doesn't get anymore clear than that. It doesn't "modify the nound that is unwritten..."...it describes an names precisely what it is INTENDED to describe and name...a HYBRID.

The name "Creamsicle" doesn't "modify" anything...it describes a corn X emoryi intergrade that is amelanistic. You don't feel the need to say "Amelanistic Creamsicle" because it is entirely redundant...just like "Creamsicle Hybrid" is entirely redundant...and completely unnecessary, IMO...

But yes...agree to disagree...

The only problem I have is with the assertion that not attaching the redundant word "hybrid" to the common trade name "Jungle Corn" is somehow less-than-honest. It is NOT mislabled, nor is it unscrupulous to label a Jungle Corn simply as a Jungle Corn. It is 100% accurate, honest and true to the hybrid nature of the animal. THAT is my ONLY problem with agreeing to disagree. I don't like the implication that using an accepted trade name for it's intended purpose is somehow dishonest...

 

[ghosthousecorns]

You are taking it too personal... my idea about what I feel is the right way to label it, and yours, can be different and we can argue why we feel that way until the cows come home (I think we already have) but I am not trying to make anyone look bad, nor did I go out of my way to find that one post I linked - I simply happened to click one of the "similar threads" links at the bottom of the page. If you think I have attacked your personal integrity because I feel strongly about this, you are reading too much into it. And I would have never gone so far as to call your posts a bunch of bluster to make you feel superior just because we happen to disagree.
Attack the idea, not the person...

 

[HanneysCorn]

I produce Creamsicles and Rootbeers and hopefully this year, Jungle Corns as well.

Containers are labelled as such at the shows...

Creamsicle (M or F)
Emoryi/Corn

If a buyer says, "Oh look, there's a creamsicle", I say, "Yes, that's an emoryi x corn...a hybrid."

If a buyer says, "Oh that's a nice one", I say, "That's the offspring of breeding an emoryi rat snake with a corn snake". It's a hybrid".

Don't get much simpler than that. If further questions are asked, then I give details, ie parentage and percentage of known emoryi blood.

If a purchase is made of one of the hybrids then I go into detail that if this emoryi/corn is ever bred, all resultant offspring are considered "hybrid" due to the emoryi blood in the line.

I've done my part, but I can't control what the buyer will do or call said emoryi/corn after the sale is over.

And yup, there is nothing that irritates me more than when someone says, I have a creamsicle corn. No such thing...it's a Creamsicle period.

Ruth

 

[TandJ]

I don't get my undies wound up if someone calls a creamsicle a corn snake or not.. I know what is meant by Creamsicle.. Of course, their just snakes/sankes..

Yeah, I have a rootbeer project or two, not like Emoryi was not pushed into corn stock many years ago..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[vetusvates]

If it were being treated like a 4-letter word...they wouldn't be labled with a trade name that is specifically known to be that of a hybrid. They would be advertised as a morph, or a new species...not a hybrid.

And it IS a "name". What else would it be? It's a name...a label...SPECIFICALLY used for hybrids. It doesn't get anymore clear than that. It doesn't "modify the nound that is unwritten..."...it describes an names precisely what it is INTENDED to describe and name...a HYBRID.

The name "Creamsicle" doesn't "modify" anything...it describes a corn X emoryi intergrade that is amelanistic. You don't feel the need to say "Amelanistic Creamsicle" because it is entirely redundant...just like "Creamsicle Hybrid" is entirely redundant...and completely unnecessary, IMO...

But yes...agree to disagree...

The only problem I have is with the assertion that not attaching the redundant word "hybrid" to the common trade name "Jungle Corn" is somehow less-than-honest. It is NOT mislabled, nor is it unscrupulous to label a Jungle Corn simply as a Jungle Corn. It is 100% accurate, honest and true to the hybrid nature of the animal. THAT is my ONLY problem with agreeing to disagree. I don't like the implication that using an accepted trade name for it's intended purpose is somehow dishonest...

Chris, I am new to corn morphs, and even more new/astounding/fascinating to me is the concept of a hybrid from two different genera.
I am old school, linnaean classification and taxonomy raised. To get a new species named or an existing one renamed, in the greater scientific community, is an important, formal, and officious process.
And I realize that CB-ing snakes is another and different vehicle for free private citizens with their own herpetologic tastes.
However, having studied pharmacology, and considering myself an amateur scientist (an even more amateur morph-keeper than the rest of you morph scientists)---the major "analogy", if you will, that comes to mind is the FDA and the Truth In Labeling Acts (2004 for Allergens, 2007 for Trans-Fat, etc., etc.....).
In pharmacology and chemistry, trade names, by different maufacturers, can be confusing. Hence the use of the drug/molecule name in common chem-speak.
I believe, and I think many others would agree, that captive-breeding snakes would be more respected if it moved toward the scientific, rather than away from the scientific. Hybrid is scientific. It's not a naughty word. Unless someone stigmatizes/demonizes it by making it a naughty word. Which I am afraid is the direction it is taking here. And it should not be a negative, whispered, word-that-dare-not-speak-its-name term.
If a hybrid was what I wanted, and I may very well want one one day, labeling would not put me off. Which I think may be the unspoken fear here.
However, considering the FDA/Truth In Labeling analogy....I think that ethically the word "hybrid" should be openly, proudly, and unabashedly labeled on a specimen that is indeed a hybrid. It is only right that it should be so.

 

[ForkedTung]

I don't like the implication that using an accepted trade name for it's intended purpose is somehow dishonest...

It was never my intention to imply that. By saying four letter word, I meant in reference to people that don't care for hybrids.

PS) True story: Just got back from doing a reptile show today and a guy I sold a snake to came over with a juvey Creamsicle that he wanted me to sex for him before he bought it because the seller didn't know how to? So I popped it and then as I hand it back, just for the heck of it I say " now you know that that's a hybrid right?" and his response was " What's a hybrid?"
I had talked to this guy earlier when he bought one of mine and he definitely intends to breed corns....Hallie a member here, that happened to be there and watched my table for me ( thanks again Hallie, awesome!) listened to the whole thing and helped to explain and let him know that any offspring have to be labeled as hybrids...Ah well what are you gonna do, he didn't do his homework.

 

[ForkedTung]

vetusvates:

I believe, and I think many others would agree, that captive-breeding snakes would be more respected if it moved toward the scientific, rather than away from the scientific

This is professionalism as opposed to oldschoolism!

 

[Chip]

Really? Oldschoolism was a different experience for me.

 

[ForkedTung]

Really? Oldschoolism was a different experience for me.

All fantasies whether or not they are based upon subjective or objective reality, as we all know perception IS reality, must be kept confined to either your own mental processes, or if they must be shared; Shall furthermore and in no due haste, be whispered to a caring or otherwise, significant other. The terms of this agreement are binding and all inclusive as to preclude further discussion.






lol

 

[Caryl]

Let's hear it for professionalism!
IMHO, it appears that virtually all who contributed to this thread, equus mortis or not, share a desire to do what's right by the animals and by the clients. Hybrids aren't evil, and identifying them more clearly to newcomers would be a service to all. Trade names are what they are, and it's perfectly proper to use them and expect clients to be educated or interested enough to ask questions.

The problem for those who are learning the terminology is the "corn" part of a hybrid name. It doesn't occur to most folks outside of the community that anything called "corn" is a hybrid. Buyers still need to ask, but as was said in a previous post, they don't always know the right questions. After seeing trade names for corn snakes of butter corn, bloodred corn, granite corn, pewter corn, caramel corn, snow corn, ghost corn, etc. ad nauseum, and being correctly told that all of these are varieties of corn snakes, it is understandable for one who hasn't been specifically told otherwise to assume that a root beer corn, jungle corn, whatever corn is in fact a corn snake.

 

[vetusvates]

vetusvates:
This is professionalism as opposed to oldschoolism!

Agreed. But don't isolate items of my prose out of context. It was indeed in the spirit of professionalism that I was making a perhaps rather verbose and circuitous argument to support just that.