hybrids vs. nonhybrids

[ForkedTung]

Agreed. But don't isolate items of my prose out of context

I solemnly swear to never isolate items of your prose out of context again...oops, did I just do it again???

 

[Ssthisto]

First and foremost, a preface:

I like some hybrids, and I think anyone who wants to make hybrids should have at. Some of them are stunningly beautiful and some of them may well be better pet snakes than the pure species parents.
I HATE "cryptic" hybrids - the ones nobody knows are hybrids, for whatever reason.

In the python world hybreds can be told just from the name, a bateater (my personal favorate snake of any, pure or hybred) is a burmese/ retic cross

They're not just called "Bateaters". The full trade name is "Borneo Bateater" - which implies that it's a snake from Borneo that eats bats. Weirdly enough, there are wild pythons in Borneo that do live in caves and eat bats... but these burm/retic hybrids are not them.

I strongly disagree with the name "Borneo Bateater" for these hybrids. Not with the hybrid itself - but with the misleading name. An expensive python with a locality-sounding name - especially if you're familiar with the prices of things like Boelens or Angolans - could easily be mistaken for a pure single-species animal. Why not just call it a Burm/Retic, or a Burtic or a Moluretic (molurus/reticulatus) - something that actually describes what's in it instead of giving it a name that implies it's something totally different?

Burm/Ball. Those folks have got it right - it's what it says on the tin.
Blood/Ball, not "Superball" or "Borneo Rateater".
Carpall, not "Jungle Ball" or "Indonesian Ball".

See where I'm coming from?

"Jungle Corn" is a term that is used ONLY to describe king/corn hybrids. That is a FACT, not an opinion. That makes it hybrid label. I'm sorry that some of you don't seem to like that, but it is a fact. IF the term "Jungle Corn" was used to describe a morph, a species, AND a hybrid, I would agree that further clarification would be needed. However, it is ONLY used to describe hybrids. ONLY. That means it's sole purpose as a trade name is to describe a hybrid snake. It is a term specifically created to describe a hybrid. What more do you want?

It isn't a corn, therefore calling it one is misleading intrinsically. To anyone who isn't up with their corn morphs saying "jungle" in front of "Corn" means it's a jungle MORPH corn and they've just never heard of a "jungle" before.... you might ask "What are the genetics behind that Amethyst Corn*" ... but some pet keepers just see "oooh, pretty snake."

What's wrong with changing the label to add seven characters - X king - so that the label reads "Jungle corn X king" ?

Kokopelli-
Answer this for me...When I sell a Ghost cornsnake, is it acceptable to siomply write "Ghost Corn", or do you feel that I should label it, "Ghost Corn: Double recessive genetics in a homozygous state"?

How about "Ghost Corn: Anery Hypo"

That'd be ever so useful for all the people who keep asking me genetics questions - knowing the ingredients in the morphs

Beginners don't know what a ghost corn is. Beginners can't tell it is not a normal based on the look. Beginners have no idea what a "ghost corn" is. Yet..."Ghost Corn" is the only label needed to accurately sell that animal.

Why is it any different for "Jungle Corn"? IMO, it shouldn't be. It is ONLY used for the description of a hybrid. It is used extensively as an appropriate trade name for a KNOWN hybrid.

The big difference is that a Ghost corn is in fact a corn and if they care for it like a corn and treat it like a corn they won't be getting it wrong. A Jungle "corn" is not a corn. If they treat it like a corn - and barring cohousing, imagine what might happen in breeding - especially if they try to breed, say, a large female first-generation Jungle to a small male corn - they may find they're short one small male corn. MUCH less likely to happen between two adult pure corns, wouldn't you say?

I have pictures of corns labled as corns. I have pictures of kings labeled as kings. WHEN I have hybrids, they will be labled with the trade name, and grouped in the hybrids section.

Excellent. You have a separate section for hybrids on your website. What about on your show tables - do you separate kings, corns and hybrids into discrete groups?

Most shops I've been to don't have a "corns" section. They have hatchling racks which have hatchlings put where they fit. They have adult vivs which have adults put where they fit. So something labelled "Jungle Corn" is just going to be in and amongst the trinket ratsnakes, California kings, sanzinia boas and so on.

Heck, in a very local shop, there is an animal labelled as a "Snow Californian Corn". Only one word in that name is correct - Californian. It's an albino Cali king. Whose fault is it, though, if someone buys a funny-looking snow corn snake from that shop, and the shop owners tell them it was sold to them as a Snow Californian Corn so that must be what it is?

We told the shop owners what it is, by the way. I doubt they'll change the label - they are willfully ignorant in many ways. Speaking of which... has anyone ever heard of a kind of cedar that is safe for snakes?

Every snake breeder website I have visited specifically mentions what they breed. If there are multiple species,they are always grouped under specific categories, such as boas, pythons, king snakes, corn snakes, bull snakes, and yes, even hybrids. If nothing more, the hybrids are listed under "other snakes", but not with the rest of the corn snakes nor with the king snakes (in regards to jungle corns).

I'm sure I can find half a dozen UK shop websites that list Creamsicles and/or Jungles in with the corn snakes - because the name says "corn". And since it is less straightforward to get a reptile from a breeder over here unless you live nearby (only one courier UK-wide carries reptiles and they are not taking new accounts; reptile taxi services are very expensive indeed) or one of the handful of UK shows is running... most newbies will be getting their snakes from shops.

The problem for those who are learning the terminology is the "corn" part of a hybrid name. It doesn't occur to most folks outside of the community that anything called "corn" is a hybrid. Buyers still need to ask, but as was said in a previous post, they don't always know the right questions. After seeing trade names for corn snakes of butter corn, bloodred corn, granite corn, pewter corn, caramel corn, snow corn, ghost corn, etc. ad nauseum, and being correctly told that all of these are varieties of corn snakes, it is understandable for one who hasn't been specifically told otherwise to assume that a root beer corn, jungle corn, whatever corn is in fact a corn snake.

Precisely.

What's wrong with Jungle King/Corn? What's wrong with Creamsicle Rat?

They aren't pure corns - so why label them in such a way as to imply to someone with minimal knowledge that they are?

*Amethyst corn: Who knows. Radiated Ratsnake cross Lavender Bloodred corn, anyone?

 

[Susan]

Winter really needs to end and breeding season to begin....

 

[ForkedTung]

Winter really needs to end and breeding season to begin....

No doubt, I'm still waiting for the Canadian Hibirds (geese) to fly back up here from down South. lol

 

[vetusvates]

First and foremost, a preface:

Superbly said, Ssthisto. The most logical, objective, organized, and detailed post I have seen in a while.
And I emphasize "objective" and "detailed". Sometimes we overlook the most obvious, straightforward things....but you covered just about everything. And very well.
If it's not 100% corn, don't represent/market it as such.
Do represent/market it clearly for precisely what it is.
IMO, doing anything else calls motives into question.

 

[tyflier]

Superbly said, Ssthisto. The most logical, objective, organized, and detailed post I have seen in a while.
And I emphasize "objective" and "detailed". Sometimes we overlook the most obvious, straightforward things....but you covered just about everything. And very well.
If it's not 100% corn, don't represent/market it as such.
Do represent/market it clearly for precisely what it is.
IMO, doing anything else calls motives into question.

Again...you are missing the point.

The name, "Jungle Corn" IS a true, and accurate representation of the animal. It is a NAME for a HYBRID. Period. End of story.

All of the "I wish it wasn't so..." in the world will NOT change the very simple fact that a "Jungle Corn" always HAS been, and always WILL be a hybrid. Period. In EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE!!

Attaching the word "hybrid" to the name "Jungle Corn" is redundant. "Jungle Corn" means hybrid. It always HAS meant "hybrid".

It does NOT represent the animal as a "cornsnake", simply because it always has and always WILL be a HYBRID.

It doesn't call motives into question, because, quite frankly, IT IS ACCURATE.

You guys can ignore that FACT as much as you want. It doesn't change it one iota...

 

[vetusvates]

Again...you are missing the point.

The name, "Jungle Corn" IS a true, and accurate representation of the animal. It is a NAME for a HYBRID. Period. End of story.

All of the "I wish it wasn't so..." in the world will NOT change the very simple fact that a "Jungle Corn" always HAS been, and always WILL be a hybrid. Period. In EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE!!

Attaching the word "hybrid" to the name "Jungle Corn" is redundant. "Jungle Corn" means hybrid. It always HAS meant "hybrid".

It does NOT represent the animal as a "cornsnake", simply because it always has and always WILL be a HYBRID.

It doesn't call motives into question, because, quite frankly, IT IS ACCURATE.

You guys can ignore that FACT as much as you want. It doesn't change it one iota...

Number 1) I have not missed the point. On the contrary, your argument is not law, has no legal basis, and is, on the basis of language, linguistics, nomenclature, and taxonomy unsound. But granted, it satisfies you, which, when the sun goes down, is all that matters. So peace out on it, brother.
Number 2) In the common vernacular (not a legal "place"), yes, the relatively new animal, (that has not always been anything, by the way), is commonly called a "Jungle Corn".
Number 3) In the formal sense of the word, the animal is a hybrid. Not a species. Not a subspecies. Not a variation. Not a variety. Not a morph. It is scientifically a hybrid.
Number 4) Animals are classified by a commonly accepted name (e.g. Black Rat Snake), scientific (species/subspecies) name (e.g. Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta), and often nicknames (e.g. Rattlesnake Pilot, Pilot Black Snake, etc.)

Note : At number 4, one can walk up to a group, and depending on the name they are using to describe the animal in question, identify the individuals as children, salt of the earth country folk, well-read highschoolers, or academicians.
Where you choose to get comfortable in life, with your beliefs and your language, is not important to me. That you believe in something....well, that impresses me.
Why not just write hybrid on the cup...??? Then all parties will be appraised.

In the context of the private sector, and captive breeding world, which may interest you more than the academic/scientific community, Ssthisto has presented an unassailable argument. Logical, reasonable, comprehensive, and most particularly---divested of all emotion and prejudice. I find it highly readable.

 

[tyflier]

Number 1) I have not missed the point. On the contrary, your argument is not law, has no legal basis, and is, on the basis of language, linguistics, nomenclature, and taxonomy unsound. But granted, it satisfies you, which, when the sun goes down, is all that matters. So peace out on it, brother.

By virtue of your own "number 4"...you HAVE missed the point.

Number 2) In the common vernacular (not a legal "place"), yes, the relatively new animal, (that has not always been anything, by the way), is commonly called a "Jungle Corn".

"Always" for as long as the TRADE NAME of "Jungle Corn" has been used. Nobody said ANYthing about "legal", "taxonomical", or "scientific". We are discussing the accepted trade name of a hybrid animal.

Number 3) In the formal sense of the word, the animal is a hybrid. Not a species. Not a subspecies. Not a variation. Not a variety. Not a morph. It is scientifically a hybrid.

Yea...and your point is? Nobody ever claimed anything contrary, so...:shrugs:

Number 4) Animals are classified by a commonly accepted name (e.g. Black Rat Snake), scientific (species/subspecies) name (e.g. Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta), and often nicknames (e.g. Rattlesnake Pilot, Pilot Black Snake, etc.)

And by this quote alone...you have proven my point, that the hybridized animal COMMONLY KNOW AS the "Jungle Corn" is, as always...a hybrid. Further...by your own statement in "number 2"...there IS no species or subspecies by which to classify it taxonomically NOR scientifically. So WTF are you arguing about? :shrugs:

Where I "choose to be comfortable in life" is among common people...a place that I find comfortable becuae I don't pretend to be anything else. For all of the science you want to throw around...it doesn't place you any higher on any totem pole, so...what's the problem? Placing the word "hybrid" after a commonly KNOWN and ACCEPTED trade name makes you a scholar? Nah...I don't buy that. A bunch of big words that don't amount to a whole lot doesn't make you any better than anyone else either.

The whole point I have continually been trying to make, and which you, ssssthisto, and several others have conveniently ignored, is that the name "Jungle Corn", since it was first "coined" in this hobby, has ALWAYS been a referance to a hybrid. So what is the point in all of the rest of this "stuff"? Why continue arguing with non-existent science? You said yourself it has no place in taxonomy because it is not a species, so...where does that leave the rest of ALL of your arguments?

Ssssthisto's argument is ONLY "unassailable" if you REFUSE to acknowledge the only FACT at issue...a "Jungle Corn" is an appropriate name for this hybrid, and it is accepted as such by everyone...except the two of you, apparently. There is nothing "cryptic" about it...except in your own mind and your own stubborn insistance. There is nothing implied other than "hybrid". There is nothing hidden, other than the exact species of kingsnake being used.

Why not add "hybrid"? WHY add "hybrid"? The name is KNOWN to be a hybrid, is ACCEPTED to be a hybrid, and has ONLY EVER been used to DESCRIBE a hybrid. Why be redundant? Why not simply accept that a "Jungle Corn" is KNOWN to be a hybrid and move on?

There is NO scientific argument in this topic. There is no taxonomical review board looking to place this animal at a specific level. There is no person trying to claim that a "Jungle Corn" ISN"T a hybrid. So what, precisely, is your point?

As far as I can see...the only point you and Ssssthisto are trying to make is that everybody who doesn't do it YOUR way is dishonest and has no integrity. And you're damn right I take issue with that. Contrary to what the two of you apparently believe...your way is NOT the only right way. Leaving the word "hybrid" off the decription does NOT effect my integrity nor anyone else's that chooses to do it that way. It might change your personal opinion of mke but quite frankly...I couldn't possibly care less what you think. I care only about what you assert...especially when it is false and accusatory as it has been since your first post in this topic.

 

[RavenSpirit360]

Yes we all know jungle corns are hybrids, but a large majority of people out there that do not know everything we know do not.. Example, someone walks into a snake shop, decides they want a snake.. They see a jungle corn and think its the prettiest thing and buy it. They only know its a cornsnake from what the uninformed salesperson told them.. Oneday down the road they get another corn and they end up oneday with babies. The babies get sold as corns, and being mostly corn with a smaller percentage of king blood, noone ever knows. I see uninformed people breeding snakes on a weekly basis.. A lot of them know very little about genetics, etc.. All they know is if I breed my snake, I can make money.. A lot of them never research anything..
I too therefore agree that jungle corns should be labeled King X Corn Cross or something along the lines.. Jungle corn is a cute name, yes but misleading. I think its also ok to call them jungle corns if it is specified that they are hybrids along with that label.
So many people out there still do not know that a creamsicle is a hybrid.
I personally like hybrids, but I do believe they should always carry the label also, and anyone who buys them from me will be fully informed.
I have been to the exotic petstore out here, and he has had snakes labeled as amel corns that where obviously king and corn crosses. Yes we would never buy them and sell them as corns, but people who are uneducated on the subject would.
I don't know, just my two cents from the ground I stand upon.

 

[Ssthisto]

And by this quote alone...you have proven my point, that the hybridized animal COMMONLY KNOW AS the "Jungle Corn" is, as always...a hybrid.

Jungles are commonly known as a hybrid by people who understand morphs and hybrids.

If you are a brand new keeper who has done their book research* and only know that a corn snake is a pretty snake that needs this kind of care and you're looking for your first corn snake as a pet (although you, like many before you, may well end up breeding them someday) then when you see something labelled apparently as a corn snake (not a CornXKing snake, not a Hybrid Corn snake) you are probably going to assume it is in fact a corn snake, not a hybrid snake.

* Of the corn snake books I can lay my hands on right now:
The Corn Snake Manual makes a reference to Creamsicles as a subspecies cross. It mentions that it is POSSIBLE to cross to kingsnakes but NOT that this cross is called a "Jungle" corn. (p. 116 and 120 in my copy).
On page 213 of my copy of Corn Snakes - The Comprehensive Owner's Guide - there is exactly one picture of a Jungle Corn, labelled as such (but not all jungles are the 50/50 king depicted). The section on hybrids doesn't mention much other than "it's possible to breed to other colubrids."
I'm afraid I don't own "Corns and Other Rat Snakes" to see if there's a mention of Jungles as hybrids in there.
And in fact, the book with the most comprehensive description of Jungles is the Cornsnake Morph Guide - there's two pages on hybrids in my 2006 edition - but that isn't available in pet shops nor on Amazon.

If someone isn't an internet user or doesn't know what to search for (and having worked in a library, just having a computer with a search engine pre-loaded isn't enough - most people do not know any search skills) how can we expect them to know this trade term "Jungle corn" means "This animal is a cornsnake/kingsnake hybrid"?

Further...by your own statement in "number 2"...there IS no species or subspecies by which to classify it taxonomically NOR scientifically.

Actually there is precedent for hybrid species:

Lampropeltis getulus californiae X Pantherophis guttattus

THAT is the scientific/taxonomic name for a Jungle hybrid.

The whole point I have continually been trying to make, and which you, ssssthisto, and several others have conveniently ignored, is that the name "Jungle Corn", since it was first "coined" in this hobby, has ALWAYS been a referance to a hybrid.

If you're in the know, in the hobby and not just a newcomer who doesn't know that you've got to breed an amel to another amel carrier to get amel babies out.
I know a jungle corn is a hybrid because I saw a labelled picture of one a long time ago on a forum and thought "that doesn't have a cornsnake head." It made me question what the animal was because I thought it looked weird and that the "corn" label must be a mistake. But it occurs to me that if an RSPCA officer over here can misidentify a Greer's Kingsnake as a python of all things, maybe not everyone can tell the difference between a kingsnake head and a cornsnake head. I mean, they've both got eyes and nostrils and some sort of head markings, and since people don't even look at the colour of the eyes (how many times on another forum have I had to say "that can't be a caramel, it has red eyes" ? More than I'd like to count!) I can hardly expect that a newbie would be looking at the shape of the snout, the scale quality, the exact marking pattern....

What screams "hybrid" to me just says "pretty" to a new keeper.

Why not add "hybrid"? WHY add "hybrid"? The name is KNOWN to be a hybrid, is ACCEPTED to be a hybrid, and has ONLY EVER been used to DESCRIBE a hybrid. Why be redundant? Why not simply accept that a "Jungle Corn" is KNOWN to be a hybrid and move on?

And what exactly does it cost you, other than a little bit more ink, to make sure that someone who isn't in the know - and I bet there's a lot more potential corn keepers than there are EXTANT corn keepers - is aware of the animal's hybrid status?

I know that IF I ever produce any "Jungles" I will be calling them exactly what they are instead of an inherently misleading name. If I have a website or a classified ad or a table at a show, they will be labelled as Cali King X Corn Hybrids. If someone asks me "Are those jungle corns" I will say "They aren't corns, they are corn/kingsnake hybrids."

I might add that some people call them Jungles but that I disagree with calling them corns when they aren't.... the same as if someone came up to me in Subway and asked "are you drinking Diet Coke?" and I had a cup of half Diet Coke and half Fanta in front of me. It ain't Diet Coke any more and no amount of labelling will make it so. A jungle isn't a corn snake, and calling it a jungle corn won't make it one, either.

Yes, I do believe it is dishonest to assume or at least naive to believe that people will know that "jungle corn" as a label means "hybrid" instead of "jungle morph corn snake". The number of people on forums is a tiny fraction of the entire hobby. You know and I know and Vetusvates knows that if we see a box labelled "jungle corn" it's a hybrid... but little Billy and his dad, who are looking for Billy's first snake (and maybe a friend for it because it might get lonely) does not and cannot be expected to.

Why not make it easy for little Billy and just add X King on the end? At least then you are working for the least common denominator - which is not always the same thing as "dumbing down".

 

[Midnght]

An analogy with dogs was mentioned awhile back in this thread, but I never got around to posting a response at the time, but I will now. I see puppies like these advertised for sale quite often and we have quite a few that come into our hospital. All their records have them labeled as Malamute mix or Husky mix. Cute aren't they!

Unfortunately, you cannot treat these pups like a typical dog because if you do, you are guaranteed to run into trouble. These are wolf hybrids and their body language and behavior is that of a wolf, which is different than that of a domestic dog. The vet I work for owned several of these and I have personally worked with them. What the lay person would assume to be a friendly dog giving you a nice greeting is in actuality, an aggressive warning to back off or else! Unfortunately, due to county/city/whatever regulations, if they are labeled for what they truly are, they have to be kept under specific permits and requirements. Not too many people want to go through that hassle. We also see quite a few "Lab" mixes that look like this:

In today's society, the consumer has the responsibility to know what they are purchasing because all too often, it is "Buyer Beware". I hate to say it, but there are reptile breeders that this is true of. But I will also say that there are many honest breeders that do not misrepresent their herps. But it still boils down to the consumer to be able to tell the difference. This goes for ANYTHING that someone is purchasing.

FOR SALE! This car is really HOT!!!! (I really love those commercials!)

The dogs make a good analogy. they also point out the topic at hand.
Naming convetions.

Malamute Mix. <---- hmm it's a mixed breed.
Jungle Corn <---- how is it different from a Miami Corn as was stated earlier.

It's not a Junlge Malamute which could simply mean a malamute from the jungle? I mean a Syberian husky Mix is different form a Syberian Husky or a Connecticut Husky etc etc.

It's about terminologies currently in this discussion some just feel people should do way more investigation into the names of animals or become an expert before buying.
This will never be the case thus as a breeder and seller who feels that way.
They are helping to breed ignorant pet owners.

 

[Midnght]

ForkedTung, you're analogy is flawed.

The PHRASE "Jungle Corn", in it's ENTIRETY, is a term used SOLELY for the description of hybrid king/corn snakes. It is not an adjective and a noun, it is a name...a name SOLELY CREATED to describe these hybrids. It's not a Jungle, it's a Jungle Corn. It's not a corn, it's a Jungle Corn. The words are used together as a name, not independantly. Seperated the words have completely different meanings and uses in and out of the snake community. Together, they mean only ONE THING...hybrid.

So the terms Junglecorn not Jungle Corn?

Tyf you keep thinking from a breeders stand point.

Just because a names been used for years doesn't mean it should be perpetuated.


As breeders you breed two things.
1. Pet of choice.
2. Pet Owners

Breeding ignorant pet owners is bad.

I mean look at it from another perspective.

You know the term they don't
What if that half breed required higher or lower temps for it than the average corn?

You still feel that because the name is a time honored tradition if the owner kills his snake due to bad temps and thinking it's a cornsnake because the name sounds like so many other corn snakes out there. You have no part in that death at all?

You don't need to fully educate them on breeding needs and traits etc.
But a simple this is not your standard corn terminology is not asking to much to fix the years of harm the bad terms can cause now and have caused.

Oh well think as you will. Matters not to me right now as I'm not in the area to buy a new snake.

 

[Midnght]

Uhhmm Chris, It can't be a flawed analogy because it's not an analogy. As for the name "Jungle Corn", in it's ENTIRETY, yes you can call it a name if you want, but what is it a name for? it is a name that describes a type of hybrid. It modifies the noun, the unspoken/unwritten noun that for some reason is being treated like a four letter word. HYBRID!



I agree to disagree.

A name it may be wade.

But it's old like creamsicle and rootbeer.

In the end to me it's deceptive. (Two unknown till now hybrids later)

Hybrid, Mix, Cross tacked onto any other name you want to give leaves no room for error other than lack of REAL WORLD education. But even then someone who doesn't know what the term hybrid means would ask what's a hybrid? they won't ask what's a corn as they likely alreayd know it's the shortened term for corn snake.

 

[Midnght]

I have to say the more I read the more I just have to ask.

Accepted trade name?

How many breeders voted on it back in the day?

Or did they just adopt some ones bad idea?

Likely the answer is the latter.
Why perpetuate it?

 

[Midnght]

It was never my intention to imply that. By saying four letter word, I meant in reference to people that don't care for hybrids.

PS) True story: Just got back from doing a reptile show today and a guy I sold a snake to came over with a juvey Creamsicle that he wanted me to sex for him before he bought it because the seller didn't know how to? So I popped it and then as I hand it back, just for the heck of it I say " now you know that that's a hybrid right?" and his response was " What's a hybrid?"
I had talked to this guy earlier when he bought one of mine and he definitely intends to breed corns....Hallie a member here, that happened to be there and watched my table for me ( thanks again Hallie, awesome!) listened to the whole thing and helped to explain and let him know that any offspring have to be labeled as hybrids...Ah well what are you gonna do, he didn't do his homework.

Hmm but wait shouldn't he have known?

JK
Good job on educating someone for someone elses lack of.

Another prime example of Old School Trade Names breeding ignorance.

 

[Midnght]

Again...you are missing the point.

The name, "Jungle Corn" IS a true, and accurate representation of the animal. It is a NAME for a HYBRID. Period. End of story.

It's not true and accurate.

A. It's not from THE Jungle
B. It's not 100% corn snake.

It's a badly coined term probably before we were born.

 

[Weebonilass]

No doubt, I'm still waiting for the Canadian Hibirds (geese) to fly back up here from down South. lol

Well, they are working their way up there, if the numbers I saw yesterday were anything to go by and the population at the local town park has quadrupled in the past week or so

 

[reptile_jones]

So the terms Junglecorn not Jungle Corn?

Tyf you keep thinking from a breeders stand point.

Just because a names been used for years doesn't mean it should be perpetuated.


As breeders you breed two things.
1. Pet of choice.
2. Pet Owners

Breeding ignorant pet owners is bad. What???
I mean look at it from another perspective.

You know the term they don't
What if that half breed required higher or lower temps for it than the average corn?

You still feel that because the name is a time honored tradition if the owner kills his snake due to bad temps and thinking it's a cornsnake because the name sounds like so many other corn snakes out there. You have no part in that death at all?

You don't need to fully educate them on breeding needs and traits etc.
But a simple this is not your standard corn terminology is not asking to much to fix the years of harm the bad terms can cause now and have caused.

Oh well think as you will. Matters not to me right now as I'm not in the area to buy a new snake.

Jungle, rootbeer, creamsicle, cinnamon, turbo, corndurans are standard corn terminology for hybrids. If you see a terminology that you don't know then ask. "What makes it a jungle corn?" "what makes it a cinnamon?"

 

[reptile_jones]

It's not true and accurate.

A. It's not from THE Jungle
B. It's not 100% corn snake.

It's a badly coined term probably before we were born.

a butter corn is not made from butter, so would that make that name wrong?

 

[Weebonilass]

Jungle, rootbeer, creamsicle, cinnamon, turbo, corndurans are standard corn terminology for hybrids. If you see a terminology that you don't know then ask. "What makes it a jungle corn?" "what makes it a cinnamon?"

As a newbie, why would I ask "what makes it a jungle corn or a cinnamon?"??? Why would I not just consider it another colour when there are sooo many out there? Again, you are assuming that that a brand-new snake owner is going to do indepth research on hybrids.

Heck, I was a corn owner for several years and it wasn't until I found this site that I knew folks were breeding them. I don't recall a single mention of hybrids in Kathy's first book... of course, I probably read the sections on buying and caring for your corn (you know the IMPORTANT ones) a lot closer than the breeding section since at the time I had no intention of breeding.