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Influencing snake size via feeding schedule

Lennycorn said:
Meg, I agree with the way of you're thinking. Not saying I would follow it to a ""T"" but if you say "you care about your snakes" your way works out better for the snake.
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Dave, I care about mine too. I honestly don't plan on breeding 90% of the Corns I have right now, as they're for sale. So if I didn't care and was just a lowly "flipper", why the hell would I spend the extra money, invest the extra time, and put forth the extra effort to feed them more often? Explain that to me.....
 
David, that asks the question though of why you feel the need to feed them so often now?

As many people have stated, we don't believe Doc's claim of a 7 to 10 day feed schedule, and we have our animals as proof that this does not cause the dramatic emaciation evidenced in his animals.
 
Shiari said:
David, that asks the question though of why you feel the need to feed them so often now?

As many people have stated, we don't believe Doc's claim of a 7 to 10 day feed schedule, and we have our animals as proof that this does not cause the dramatic emaciation evidenced in his animals.
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I honestly didn't follow the Doc thread very well but I did see several places where people said they wouldn't go anymore than 5 days. I didn't want there to be the chance something like what happened to Doc would happen to my stock.
 
It won't... as long as you feed them. The condition of his snakes seems to suggest he simply never fed them. Or fed them *maybe* once a month as hatchlings. Long term, once a month feeds could have the potential to cause that emaciation.
 
Shiari said:
It won't... as long as you feed them. The condition of his snakes seems to suggest he simply never fed them. Or fed them *maybe* once a month as hatchlings. Long term, once a month feeds could have the potential to cause that emaciation.
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Ahhh see last time I checked, it was the consensus he fed every 10 days.
 
It was wondered, but then people like myself who had fed on maintenance schedules chimed in with "our animals didn't grow much, but they maintained tone and *did* grow some" helped disprove that.

I still have two of the snakes that I did maintenance feeds on over last winter. So they're quite smaller than average for 1.5 yr old snakes, but they're just about the cross the line onto hoppers, which I start around 65 grams. At that point, they should really take off.
 
My babies shed monthly just like the babies I used to feed every week so they are growing....they just don't grow fast. Has nothing to do with cost of feed or anything else. I spend a fortune on rats, mice and that sort of thing...my two cats also eat f/t rats so it costs me a lot in rodents, but after doing research, talking with vets and reading a hell of a lot of veterinary and care books, I've decided that less is more. I definitely have active snakes, my females have fewer issues with laying, recover better, don't have hips in the cornsnakes and no prolapses in 5 years. I'll take that!
 
MegF. said:
I can tell you one thing....the snakes are much more active than when I used to feed weekly. Anyone who says their cornsnakes sit in a hide all the time has a lethargic snake. Mine were out all the time. Much more excercise looking for food then waiting for it to come to you....even feeding f/t....they are out hunting until feeding day.
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Meg, can I ask a newbie question? How can you tell the difference between an active snake and a snake that is active because it is uncomfortably hungry? That's something I've always wondered about. I assume I feed mine enough food, but how can you know for sure.
 
I have a female who has been on feeding strike since the end of August. She apparently does not approve of the switch in rodent suppliers. This is the second time she's had such a lengthy strike. If prowling the viv searching for food was an indicator of hunger, you'd think she'd be out constantly, but no. She stays tucked away in her hide and only comes out to check out my food offering every ten days and then retreats when it doesn't meet her standards. She has only lost grams of weight. It makes me wonder how long a meal really lasts!
 
I assume I feed mine enough food, but how can you know for sure.
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When they start to lose weight, you are underfeeding. I've experienced this myself, when trying to work out a feeding regime which keeps breeding females at optimum body mass - i.e. weight that's muscle not flab. With some, it can be a juggling act, but on balance I'd rather have a slightly underweight Corn that I can feed back up, than an overweight Corn that needs a diet. For starters, getting (healthy) weight on, is a lot easier than shifting excess fat off - which can take months or even years.

I can't really use activity levels to gauge hunger in my gang. They're each individuals and some are naturally more mobile than others. If I waited for my old-timer to start trundling around before I fed him, he'd never eat at all! His lack of activity doesn't mean that he doesn't need to eat. By the same token, increased activity in others, doesn't mean that they DO need to eat.

Trying to figure out what a snake "feels" is a bit of a lost cause. They hunt when they're not hungry and when they don't need to eat, because that's what nature has programmed them to do. As owners, it's up to us to come up with a captive feeding regime which is best for our individual situation and our animals.
 
This is not about breeding to me at all. They few corns I have for breeding, I am really not trying to breed anytime soon, as they will be a pet project. I already am going to have 100+ babies AFTs this season so there's no need for a ton of baby Corns as well.
 
Karoni said:
Meg, can I ask a newbie question? How can you tell the difference between an active snake and a snake that is active because it is uncomfortably hungry? That's something I've always wondered about. I assume I feed mine enough food, but how can you know for sure.
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IMO snakes do not get hungry in the human way.... Snakes feed via a response. Trigger that response and they will feed and feed... Don't trigger it and people call it hunger strike....
Snakes will hide away for a day or so to digest, then start hunting again as they don't know when or where the next meal is coming from....
 
snakewispera snr said:
IMO snakes do not get hungry in the human way.... Snakes feed via a response. Trigger that response and they will feed and feed... Don't trigger it and people call it hunger strike....
Snakes will hide away for a day or so to digest, then start hunting again as they don't know when or where the next meal is coming from....
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Well...seem like people like to trigger that response Mike.
 
IMO, this is a topic that is definitely not black & white. There are a lot of grey areas.

Bottom line, the frequency of the feedings should be based on the snakes health. As long as the snake is maintaining a healthy weight, whatever feeding schedule it takes to keep it healthy, is what you should follow, IMHO.

I cringe when I hear "maintenance feeding" because while some use this term as meant to be that they feed less often than the "normal" but enough to keep the animal healthy. I know people who do this & have healthy animals that just grow slower. I think this is perfectly within reason. (More on this in a bit).
My problem with this term, is I have seen a number of people who use the term "maintenance diet", & have animals that are fed just enough to keep them alive, but they're not necessarily healthy. I have a problem with that. IMO, that is at the line of neglect.

At the other end of the spectrum, the term "power feeding" means something different to different people. Some people feel that the Munson Plan is power feeding. I do not think the Munson Plan is power feeding. (More on that in a bit too.) I use it as a starting point for my feeding "schedule". I do not feed on an exact schedule. I do feed them in groups (babies, juvies, adult females, adult males, etc). I feed failry close to the Munson Plan, but it is variable.

I have to say that (to a certain extent), slower feeding to keep the size small is not necessarily a bad thing. I use this with my Carpet Pythons. Namely, my Coastal female. While she is just a baby, & is on the baby "schedule" & gets fed once a week along with the other Carpet babies, once she is bigger, I will be feeding her at a slower rate (or smaller prey). My intent is that she not grow to a huge snake. I do not want any of my Carpets to be huge, so in a sense, they will be maintenance fed. I want them lean, but not thin, when they're full grown.
I do have one IJ Jag baby, that is too thin on the weekly feeding of the Carpet babies, so I began feeding her on the 5 day Corn baby feeding schedule. She has a higher metabolism, & needs more food than the others.
There are times when the "7 dayers" get fed at 10 days, & sometimes due to shed cycles, can go 2 weeks before the next meal, but it's variable, so it doesn't hurt them.

I think it's very important for each person to really know their snakes, & know when they're too thin, or too heavy, & adjust their feeding accordingly. Don't get caught up on a specific "feeding schedule".
 
Heather, My adults feedings do vary. And I have reduce there weight (mainly the butter) for better health and it seems to help. But now it seem like I need to increase the "size" rather than the amount.
My stripe snows that our my up and comming project, feed on a regular weekly schedule now but where on a five day plan. Mainly because (1) anything else is pushing the power feeding and (2) you need to handle the snakes somewhat to get them adjusted to you. I mean..that why we have them right ...cause we like them. LOL

But!!! I believe in "fasting" once in a while.
 
I've been trying to make my snake grow. He can't reach 3 feet for the 3 or so months that I've had him.
When I got him, dude at the pet shop said he was two year. He was about 2 3/5 feet. He's shed twice, and grown only slightly. I've done a little "power-feeding" but he seems to have only gotten fatter around the midsection, and I don't see any acceleration in growth.

Should I accept that he's just a runt, or keep a large mouse every 7-10 days schedule, and just be patient? Maybe growth is a lot more gradual and slower than I'd think.

Only saying this because when I went to my friend's house and met her corn, it was more than 2 times the size of mine! I hope he gets at least close to that size.
 
Some lines of corns stay smaller than others. I would keep yours (legion) on the schedule you have him on. They do grow a bit slower than one would think, but it happens.
 
Lennycorn said:
Heather, My adults feedings do vary. And I have reduce there weight (mainly the butter) for better health and it seems to help. But now it seem like I need to increase the "size" rather than the amount.
My stripe snows that our my up and comming project, feed on a regular weekly schedule now but where on a five day plan. Mainly because (1) anything else is pushing the power feeding and (2) you need to handle the snakes somewhat to get them adjusted to you. I mean..that why we have them right ...cause we like them. LOL

But!!! I believe in "fasting" once in a while.
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Fasting is a good term to use. I think it can be good for them (fasting is good for us too, but that's a whole other topic) ;)

7legion77 said:
I've been trying to make my snake grow. He can't reach 3 feet for the 3 or so months that I've had him.
When I got him, dude at the pet shop said he was two year. He was about 2 3/5 feet. He's shed twice, and grown only slightly. I've done a little "power-feeding" but he seems to have only gotten fatter around the midsection, and I don't see any acceleration in growth.

Should I accept that he's just a runt, or keep a large mouse every 7-10 days schedule, and just be patient? Maybe growth is a lot more gradual and slower than I'd think.

Only saying this because when I went to my friend's house and met her corn, it was more than 2 times the size of mine! I hope he gets at least close to that size.
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I have limited experience with growth rates, but to me, it seems like the babies tend to grow fast, but the growth slows as they get older. If your snake was not underweight, just small, I would be patient about his growth.

Each snake is going to be different, even if they're the same age, or even in the same clutch! Heck, I have babies from last years clutch that prove that. I have a 1.1 Tessera pair from the Alabama Tessera project, where one is 17grams, & the other is 37 grams. They're on the same feeding schedule, one is just growing faster than the other.
 
Snakes would hunt even before they are hungry due to the difficulty of getting food. Just as a lion or tiger hunts even after eating a huge meal..they never know when food may come again so they are opportunists. I don't think we'll ever know exactly what a snake is thinking. I can only tell you that when I fed every week, the snakes spent a lot of time out of sight in their hides. Now that I don't feed as often they are out and about a lot. Even the green tree pythons are active at night and the single biggest complaint I've heard about the species is that they just sit there. While not all of them are crawling all over the cage, they are certainly actively hanging several levels from their branches, caudal luring and following you around. This occurs even a few days after feeding so it's not all hunger it's just moving or hunting in preparation to procure another meal. My amazon babies were never fed more often than every 10 days. Why? Because if I fed more often, they had lackluster feeding responses at best and outright refusal at worst. I got an amazon in from the Miami museum of natural history. They told me that he was a poor feeder and that any distraction would stop him from taking food. He has zero issues feeding here. Food comes in the cage, he's on it. The only exception is shed period. He was just being fed too often...he really wasn't all that hungry..just taking food periodically because he's genetically programmed to eat when the opportunity offers itself. They may not feel discomfort from hunger at all. You assume because you do, they do. They don't have the same physical makeup as you do. They recognize hunger I'm sure, but I don't think they get hunger pains like we do. Have no way of knowing unless we can figure out which nerves cause the feeling or if they have the same areas in the brain that trigger hunger.
 
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