Info for would be corn breeders

[Candachan]

No one has ever said cull didn't mean killing, I use the term cull because it implies euthanasia as opposed to throwing live babies in with a King or smacking them with a hammer. I have no problem saying the word kill, and changing the word wouldn't make me 'feel better' about it. People here are assuming people that kill snakes are trivializing life and that they must not feel bad, since they 'have no conscience' and are 'cruel' etc. However, just because it hurts us emotionally to do something doesn't make it wrong.

Saying, "Oh, I know I'd rather be released into the wild than killed." does not work. You are not a prey animal, and the odds of you getting killed by a lawnmower, cat, hawk, or a kingsnake is pretty darn slim. I'm also sure there are people that would prefer euthanasia to starving to death, dying a slow death from a wasting disease, or getting eaten by a bear. Animals are not people. They are not self-aware. They have no concept of 'freedom' versus being in captivity. Releasing CB animals into the wild, to me, is more disgusting and irresponsible than humane culling (sorry, killing) could ever be.

Yes, some released snakes survive, but most of them will die. The very reason snakes have so many offspring is because the majority of them are going to starve, get eaten, etc. And someone already mentioned the fact that releasing captive animals only makes them vectors for disease in the wild population.

I agree that freezing is not humane and is not euthanasia. Someone who culls via freezer is being cruel and is causing the animal to suffer a traumatic death.

 

[smallet]

I agree that freezing is not humane and is not euthanasia. Someone who culls via freezer is being cruel and is causing the animal to suffer a traumatic death.

Candachan: Is being fed live to a kingsnake any less traumatic or cruel? There is no nice way to cull (kill) a snake.

Snakehead: See, we all benefit from having an open mind. And like you said topics like these are things that people do get passionate about. Sorry to see people attack you when you said that you hadn't thought about the CB to wild possibilities and wouldn't do that. Sometimes we forget we all can miss certain implications to things we do. Which is why forums are great. Because, as a collective there is so much to be shared.

 

[Snakehead]

From a biologists standpoint, I disagree with releasing CB corns into the wild. For many of the reasons already listed. How does that make us any better than those releasing pythons into the wild. And now they are getting bans. You may not realize the harms it causes to the natural environment when releasing corn snakes, at least not like pythons. Its on a much smaller scale. Nature has a certain number of animals it can support in any given area. If you are pushing out the natives with your CB snakes by them out competing natives for food, that whole local corn population may be at risk. We dont know if our CB corns are heartier than wild ones, but what if?

I already said I won't do it again, but to clarify just a little....these babies came from aparents who were caught within a 5 mile radius of my home. So I removed them from the area and and I am releasing their young which probably would have been born anyway, except with a different father. I didn't think it would be a problem since they still have their natural instincts in tact. They are for all intentand purpose still wild snakes. I did not do it with my Okeetees or Miamis who have been line bred for many generations. I doubt seriously any damage could result but I do agree that it may not be a great idea, and especially with corns that have been bred in captivity for many generations.

 

[Snakehead]

No one has ever said cull didn't mean killing, I use the term cull because it implies euthanasia as opposed to throwing live babies in with a King or smacking them with a hammer. I have no problem saying the word kill, and changing the word wouldn't make me 'feel better' about it. People here are assuming people that kill snakes are trivializing life and that they must not feel bad, since they 'have no conscience' and are 'cruel' etc. However, just because it hurts us emotionally to do something doesn't make it wrong.

Saying, "Oh, I know I'd rather be released into the wild than killed." does not work. You are not a prey animal, and the odds of you getting killed by a lawnmower, cat, hawk, or a kingsnake is pretty darn slim. I'm also sure there are people that would prefer euthanasia to starving to death, dying a slow death from a wasting disease, or getting eaten by a bear. Animals are not people. They are not self-aware. They have no concept of 'freedom' versus being in captivity. Releasing CB animals into the wild, to me, is more disgusting and irresponsible than humane culling (sorry, killing) could ever be.

Yes, some released snakes survive, but most of them will die. The very reason snakes have so many offspring is because the majority of them are going to starve, get eaten, etc. And someone already mentioned the fact that releasing captive animals only makes them vectors for disease in the wild population.

I agree that freezing is not humane and is not euthanasia. Someone who culls via freezer is being cruel and is causing the animal to suffer a traumatic death.

oK aside from the fact we have already established that it may be wrong to release captive snakes into the wild, how can you possibly say it's more cruel than killing them? How do you kill yours? I can't think of any humaine way to kill really. The closest way would be to give them some drug that basically makes them go to sleep. Because even gassing seems cruel to me. Yet putting them in their natural enviroment where they were designed to live and thrive and multiply, that is cruel? WOW!

 

[Snakehead]

I agree that freezing is not humane and is not euthanasia. Someone who culls via freezer is being cruel and is causing the animal to suffer a traumatic death.

Candachan: Is being fed live to a kingsnake any less traumatic or cruel? There is no nice way to cull (kill) a snake.

Snakehead: See, we all benefit from having an open mind. And like you said topics like these are things that people do get passionate about. Sorry to see people attack you when you said that you hadn't thought about the CB to wild possibilities and wouldn't do that. Sometimes we forget we all can miss certain implications to things we do. Which is why forums are great. Because, as a collective there is so much to be shared.

Thank you! I have found this thread to be very interesting, and I have been giving it a lot of thought. Some of the opposing arguements were put fourth very intelegently, and made me think. A couple made me loose my calm, and I got an infraction because of it, but all in all I think it was good. It is also sticking with the original topic, because this is definately something people will have to consider when deciding to breed. I have said this to many newbies wanting to breed, and have stressed the fact that they may get a couple desirable snakes from pairing two hets, but many will look normal and the babies would be very hard to sell.

 

[Candachan]

I already said that feeding live is cruel and not euthanasia. If you are going to feed snakes to another animal, please euthanize them first! I'm sorry that some of you don't know any humane methods of killing, thankfully the AVMA has done extensive studies and written many guidelines for euthanasia.

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf

Amphibians, Fish, and Reptiles

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Euthanasia of ectothermic animals must take into account differences in their metabolism, respiration, and tolerance to cerebral hypoxia. In addition, it is often more difficult to ascertain when an animal is dead. Some unique aspects of euthanasia of amphibians, fishes, and reptiles have been described.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]13,51,186,187[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Injectable agents[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]—Sodium pentobarbital (60 to 100 mg/kg of body weight) can be administered intra-venously, intraabdominally, or intrapleuroperitoneally in most ectothermic animals, depending on anatomic features. Subcutaneous lymph spaces may also be used in frogs and toads. Time to effect may be variable, with death occurring in up to 30 minutes.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]1,187,188 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Barbiturates other than pentobarbital can cause pain on injection.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]189 [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Clove oil[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]—Because adequate and appropriate clin-ical trials have not been performed on fish to evaluate its effects, use of clove oil is not acceptable. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]External or topical agents[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]—Tricaine methane sul-fonate ( TMS, MS-222) may be administered by various routes to euthanatize. For fish and amphibians, this chemical may be placed in water.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Inhalant agents[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]—Many reptiles and amphibians, including chelonians, are capable of holding their breath and converting to anaerobic metabolism, and can survive long periods of anoxia (up to 27 hours for some species).[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]197-202 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Because of this ability to tolerate anoxia, induction of anesthesia and time to loss of con-sciousness may be greatly prolonged when inhalants are used. Death in these species may not occur even after prolonged inhalant exposure.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]203 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Lizards, snakes, and fish do not hold their breath to the same extent and can be euthanatized by use of inhalant agents. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Carbon dioxide[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]—Amphibians,[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]1 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]reptiles,[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]1 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]and fish[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]203-205 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]may be euthanatized with CO[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]2[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]. Loss of con-sciousness develops rapidly, but exposure times required for euthanasia are prolonged. This technique is more effective in active species and those with less tendency to hold their breath. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Physical methods[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]—Line drawings of the head of various amphibians and reptiles, with recommended locations for captive bolt or firearm penetration, are available.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]13 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Crocodilians and other large reptiles can also be shot through the brain.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]51 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Decapitation with heavy shears or a guillotine is effective for some species that have appropriate anatomic features. It has been assumed that stopping blood supply to the brain by decapitation causes rapid loss of consciousness. Because the central nervous sys-tem of reptiles, fish, and amphibians is tolerant to hypoxic and hypotensive conditions,[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]13 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]decapitation must be followed by pithing. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]188 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Two-stage euthanasia procedures[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]—Propofol and ultrashort-acting barbiturates may be used for these species to produce rapid general anesthesia prior to final administration of euthanasia. In zoos and clinical settings, neuromuscular blocking agents are considered acceptable for restraint of reptiles if given immediately prior to administration of a euthanatizing agent.Most amphibians, fishes, and reptiles can be euthanatized by cranial concussion (stunning) followed by decapitation, pithing, or some other physical method. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Severing the spinal cord behind the head by pithing is an effective method of killing some ectotherms. Death may not be immediate unless both the brain and spinal cord are pithed. For these animals, pithing of the spinal cord should be followed by decapitation and pithing of the brain or by another appropriate procedure. Pithing requires dexterity and skill and should only be done by trained personnel. The pithing site in frogs is the foramen magnum, and it is identified by a slight midline skin depression posterior to the eyes with the neck flexed.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]187 [/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Cooling[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]—It has been suggested that, when using physical methods of euthanasia in ectothermic species, cooling to 4 C will decrease metabolism and facilitate handling, but there is no evidence that whole body cooling reduces pain or is clinically efficacious.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]206 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Local cooling in frogs does reduce nociception, and this may be partly opioid mediated. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]207 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Immobilization of reptiles by cooling is considered inappropriate and inhumane even if combined with other physical or chemical methods of euthanasia. Snakes and turtles, immobilized by cooling, have been killed by subsequent freezing. This method is not recommended.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]13 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Formation of ice crystals on the skin and in tissues of an animal may cause pain or distress. Quick freezing of deeply anesthetized animals is acceptable.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]208 [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
[/FONT]

 

[Snakehead]

I already said that feeding live is cruel and not euthanasia. If you are going to feed snakes to another animal, please euthanize them first! I'm sorry that some of you don't know any humane methods of killing, thankfully the AVMA has done extensive studies and written many guidelines for euthanasia.

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
[/FONT]

Well, that settles it! Why didn't I read this publication before! My eyes have been opened!

 

[Nanci]

Did any of you read Elle's account of taking a snake to be euthed by injection into the heart? It might kill the snake quickly, but the experience of the needle going into the heart was extremely painful and traumatic for the snake.

 

[desertanimal]

cull - an organised killing of selected animals; To select animals from a group and then kill them in order to reduce the numbers of the group in a controlled manner; To kill (animals etc)

Does it make those that practice it feel better to say cull rather than kill?

Nope. I use the word cull because it denotes discriminate killing rather than indiscriminate killing, which is what we're talking about here--that animals that are killed are killed for a particular reason while others are not killed.

I use this word for clarity's sake, same as I use the word euthanize for clarity's sake--to indicate that the killing was done in humane way.

I just euthanized my cat about two weeks ago. And when I talk to strangers, I use the work euthanize to communicate that fact. When I talk to friends, though, who knew about the cat's health issues and who know that I would only ever kill the cat humanely, I have informed them that, "I killed Lancelot." (My wife actually uses the word "murdered" when we talk about it, which accurately expresses that she feels less emotionally ok with our decision than I do, even though murder is a legal term and technically is inappropriate to describe this act and she knows that.) Even then, though, my friends joke and say," You mean you took him to the vet, or you strangled him because you couldn't stand the poop?" They're joking, of course, but it does illustrate the importance of the distinction and how you should use the most precise word possible when discussing such things with people who don't know you well enough to know for sure what you mean otherwise.

It makes me feel exactly the same to say cull and kill. It makes me feel much worse if I have occasion to say "accidentally killed." Like when I run over a bird in a parking lot who was resting in the shade of my tire, or when I throw a log into a fire, only to realize a minute later that there's now a lizard trying to escape from the log and there's no way out. Killing, culling, and euthanizing make me feel bad, but it doesn't have that "Oh, if I had only done this instead of that" despair element to it that killing something on accident or doing something that results in the unintentional death of something does.

 

[Snakehead]

Nope. I use the word cull because it denotes discriminate killing rather than indiscriminate killing, which is what we're talking about here--that animals that are killed are killed for a particular reason while others are not killed.

I use this word for clarity's sake, same as I use the word euthanize for clarity's sake--to indicate that the killing was done in humane way.

I just euthanized my cat about two weeks ago. And when I talk to strangers, I use the work euthanize to communicate that fact. When I talk to friends, though, who knew about the cat's health issues and who know that I would only ever kill the cat humanely, I have informed them that, "I killed Lancelot." (My wife actually uses the word "murdered" when we talk about it, which accurately expresses that she feels less emotionally ok with our decision than I do, even though murder is a legal term and technically is inappropriate to describe this act and she knows that.) Even then, though, my friends joke and say," You mean you took him to the vet, or you strangled him because you couldn't stand the poop?" They're joking, of course, but it does illustrate the importance of the distinction and how you should use the most precise word possible when discussing such things with people who don't know you well enough to know for sure what you mean otherwise.

It makes me feel exactly the same to say cull and kill. It makes me feel much worse if I have occasion to say "accidentally killed." Like when I run over a bird in a parking lot who was resting in the shade of my tire, or when I throw a log into a fire, only to realize a minute later that there's now a lizard trying to escape from the log and there's no way out. Killing, culling, and euthanizing make me feel bad, but it doesn't have that "Oh, if I had only done this instead of that" despair element to it that killing something on accident or doing something that results in the unintentional death of something does.

That was actually very well, put!

 

[Candachan]

Well, that settles it! Why didn't I read this publication before! My eyes have been opened!

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but you're welcome. Considering Vets often do more euthanizing than anyone else that works with animals, they have become the experts on the subject, and these euthanasia guidelines are reviewed and updated often.

 

[Susan]

But how many breeders can afford to euthanize many snakes by lethal injection by a vet? And if you have to do it outside of regular office hours, will you let a newly hatched snake that is severely deformed wait until you can actually get an appointment or rush it to the emergency clinic where they will charge you $65 just to walk in the door? And anyone that has actually tried to anesthetize a lizard by gas alone (I did with one of my veiled chameleons when I bred them) will tell you that it takes forever (over an hour in my case). And try to find a vein on a hatchling, or even an adult snake without too much stress! And if you can't you end up injecting it elsewhere in the body and death can take over an hour to occur (I've had to do many a gopher tortoise that was hit by a car). You can't get a vein in 99.9% of the cases so injecting into the brain is my personal favorite as it is extremely quick and you usually have no trouble finding the base of the skull (combo pith and euthanasia in one) - except for those tortoises that will bite you as soon as look at you if you're not careful and could actually get the head out of their shell.

And I'm not sure about the supposed pain involved with freezing. When humans suffer from hypothermia and frostbite, they say they feel no pain, which is why frostbite happens to people without them knowing it. The actual pain due to frostbite, etc occurs during the warming process, not the freezing process.

 

[bitsy]

Interesting paper on the euthanasia of reptiles here:
http://www.thefrilleddragon.com/content/129-Euthanasia-of-Reptiles

States what is and is not deemed acceptable in the UK as at 2004. Freezing is deemed unacceptable - full quote below:

1. Hypothermia and Freezing
Because ectotherms become progressively inactive with lowering of body temperature, it has been assumed in the past that cooling them prior to euthanasia would not only facilitate handling, but would anaesthetise them. Reptiles immobilised in this way were then placed in a domestic freezer and killed by subsequent freezing. This method of
euthanasia is not acceptable in the light of modern knowledge. Although decreasing temperature decreases metabolic rate and decreases response to stimuli, it is not known how it affects pain perception impulses in various nerve bundles are affected differently by temperature and some authors feel that pain neurons are less coldaffected than motor neurons. Most published guidelines on euthanasia now include statements to the effect that although cooling ectotherms produces torpor, it does not reduce their ability to feel pain and indeed it may prolong suffering since a lowered metabolic rate would delay the onset of unconsciousness due to hypoxia.

Humans dying from hypothermia are said to experience numbness, even euphoria; but this is believed to be due to endorphin production by the mammalian, endothermic brain; there seems to be no evidence for this in reptiles. A conscious reptile placed in a freezer would experience a very painful death. Destruction of its skin and eyes due to ice crystal formation within the cells, causing intense pain, would occur long before the brain had become chilled enough to cause loss of consciousness, especially in the case of a large reptile such as an iguana, whose brain would take a considerable time to chill. Even inducing hypothermia for facilitating the handling of reptiles is now considered inappropriate and inhumane by many authorities, and freezing in a domestic freezer should not be accepted as a method of euthanasia for any unanaesthetised animal of any species.

The Euthanasia Working Party (EWP) report published in Laboratory Animals (International Journal of Laboratory Animal Science and Welfare) on the recommendations for euthanasia of experimental animals states that hypothermia "..will make the animal torpid but will not raise the pain threshold. The formation of ice crystals within the body tissues is likely to be extremely painful. Hypothermia is not acceptable for euthanasia." This is a comment typical of many found throughout the literature.

This article was first published in two parts in the Veterinary Times, March 2004:
Reference: Baines, F.M. and Rees Davies, R: Veterinary Times Vol 34(8) 89
and Vol 34(9) 1214
Subsequently republished in The Herptile, Journal of the International Herpetological Society in June 2004:
Reference: Baines, F.M. and Rees Davies, R: The Herptile 29 (2) 60 – 72

 

[Candachan]

Susan, I think the reason freezing is different with reptiles is because they are ectothermic, so instead of just going 'numb' like a person would, they freeze so quickly that they are conscious while ice crystals are forming in their tissue. Some reptiles are also resistant to freezing and produce their own "antifreeze" (I believe in particular that it was certain garters and slider turtles), meaning that they would survive even longer than first thought.

Edit - Looks like Bitsy beat me to that point!

 

[smallet]

Very interesting bits of of information Candachan and bitsy. Makes me wonder what to do with deformed ones now. Vets where I live won't even let you in the door with a snake. When they are sick we bundle them up in the cooler with apropriate packs and head 2 hours to a reptile vet. Long ways to go with an animal already suffering. The thought of the trip makes me super vigilant with my collection though.

 

[Nanci]

I believe a crushing blow to the head is the preferred method for people who can't have a vet do it.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

As long as this thread has gotten, after reading all this I am sure anyone with future breeding plans is going to realize they have to have some kind of plan in place if they should get some non eaters or anything. Or rethink what to do.

Jorge, I've been wondering about this one, I do keep kings- are you saying a baby king can hatch to be a lizard eater, but an adult king will not have the instinct to be a snake eater if it has never eaten a snake? I've always heard if you want to breed kings make sure they are both the same size, not hungry, and that the female is ovulating. Your kingsnakes might never have tasted snake, but they are still kingsnakes

 

[Kethryanne]

As long as this thread has gotten, after reading all this I am sure anyone with future breeding plans is going to realize they have to have some kind of plan in place if they should get some non eaters or anything. Or rethink what to do.

That's for sure. It definitely got me thinking as a prospective breeder of what to do when this happens. Also made me rethink some of my ideas and personal limitations as well as what I feel comfortable to do as a breeder when faced with this type of situation. Thanks for the eye opening thread even if the topic got touchy.

 

[Lennycorn]

I believe a crushing blow to the head is the preferred method for people who can't have a vet do it.

Nanci I'm glad you said this because I thought I read somewhere.......
that for hatchling..you could use pilers.
Now don't flame on me

 

[Shiari]

Jorge, I've been wondering about this one, I do keep kings- are you saying a baby king can hatch to be a lizard eater, but an adult king will not have the instinct to be a snake eater if it has never eaten a snake?

I have to counter this with ceduke's king snake Frank happily eating a culled non-feeder as a juvenile snake. It took him a moment, but he gobbled it once he realised what it was.