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Info for would be corn breeders
- Thread starter ghosthousecorns
- Start date
medusacoils
Mr. Enigma!
So my question to you, Mrs. Z.... If one of your animals is suffering and you have the power to end their suffering... such as babies so severely kinked/deformed they can't eat or defecate and will die, you wouldn't? You'd let them suffer until they died naturally? You think that's less cruel than humanely euthanising them??
I want to make it clear I would find it hard to cull a perfectly healthy hatchling. One that can easily perform all necessary functions of life. In fact I wouldn't. As I stated earlier my policy would be to alert others to foul tempered hatchlings before selling and to refuse the sale if I feel they are not capable of handling the babies with bad attitudes. I would only cull a non-feeder if I had tried everything and the snake was deteriorating to a point where it was most merciful to end the snake's suffering rather than let it starve itself to death.
medusacoils
Mr. Enigma!
That is a really odd/misguided way to look at it. Because "you" put two snakes together, allowing them to do something naturally and they procreate, that gives you the right to destroy them?
Hey, I don't judge based on ones reasoning for culling just because I don't agree with it, but I think this statement is a bit misguided. Just one mans opinion. :shrugs:
Wayne
For someone to say culling is playing God, but thinks breeding is acceptable is the one whose thought process is misguided (in this woman's opinion). You're "playing God" putting the animals together in the first place. The breeders who started breeding snakes to create new genetics and morphs were "playing God". You can't write a post knocking someone who is "playing God" while you're holding an animal that resulted from someone "playing God".
medusacoils
Mr. Enigma!
YES! I ALWAYS KNEW I WAS A GOD!! So how can anyone argue with that logic?
I'm going to take this logic and apply it to EVERY aspect of my life! When I'm questioned about my new thought process, I'm going to reference this thread and your post to justify it.
Wayne
medusacoils
Mr. Enigma!
Missed the point? Nah, I got it loud and clear. You and Em Wright believe that just because you "created" it, that you have the inalienable right to destroy it. Play God if you will.
Now what if I used that logic in others aspects of my life? I'm the father of a child with a significant developmental delay. Because I "played god", laid with my wife and created her, does that give me equal right, because she is "defective", to destroy her? HELL NO and I would never consider it!
Now, I realize that culling occurs. I don't agree with it for the purpose of destroying animals that may not fit a preconceived mold. ie. color, temperament, ect. I do agree with culling animals that may have genetic defects, disease or are suffering. I don't judge those that do it, because I feel that a person has absolute domain over their own property and animals are property.
I disagree because we as keepers have a responsibility to ensure the well being and welfare of any and every animal in our keep. Especially those we create by "playing god". Culling a seemingly healthy animal just because it doesn't fit into some preconceived mold is shirking those responsibilities. A truly responsible person would not breed if they couldn't take care of them. A truly responsible person would not breed unless they had a plan to ensure that every baby could find a home, was healthy and safe.
I have "played god" many times being a person who hunts for sustenance. The difference is that those animals died for a purpose. To provide my family with food. Not because of some ill faded plan or to ensure the depth of my pockets. So don't presume to know me, my thoughts or my feelings.
I take issue with the whole "playing god" mentality. You didn't create it. You put two snakes together, they mated, the female laid eggs, they hatched and babies where "born" <~(for lack of a better word). We had little to do with it, except introducing them. Does it make you a god when they don't or won't mate? Does it make you a god when clutches fail? Does it make you a god when hatchlings are hatched with major defects? No! Your just a bystander in all aspects of it. Nature does the rest!
Thank You
Wayne
Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)
Zookeeper
Em, A couple of years ago, I had one of my beloved dogs euthanized for an incurable disease that was making her absolutely miserable, and for which there was no effective treatment or cure. It broke my heart. I came this close >< to suicide.... I sincerely believe that it was not my place to have that dog killed, and yet I did, for her sake. Not for mine. Somehow, I doubt that any kink or lack of eating ability could be as horrendous as the suffering that Jasmine went through. And so, no, I wouldn't euthanize a snake for either of those reasons. Which is why I've never bred snakes. I won't say I never will, because I have a male here on breeding loan even as we speak, but it certainly is highly possible and even probable that I won't breed, again, for the reasons stated above.
I do not judge those who cull. I don't like it, 99.9% of the time, but until I am 100% perfect, far be it from me to cast the first stone. I just stated my own very personal belief about culling as regards to myself. I don't feel holier than anyone, I just pointed out that, for me at least, and perhaps for others, culling would be a very valid reason to consider whether or not to breed.
Snakehead
Bite Me! It's ok
Look, I have always raised mice to feed to my snakes. This means I have always had to kill, or stun the mice before feeding them. At first it really bothered me. It's much easier to defrost a mouse, than to have to knock one out. Over time I have gotten over it. I can wack twenty mice in a few minutes and not bat an eye. That is what I meant by her conscience is still in tact. I would not be able to kill a healthy snake, for the reasons mentioned. It would disturb me! I do release "some" corns that are from this exact area. I have a line of Corns that I am working with, that were caught right here in my county. I have no problem releasing what I don't want to keep, and keeping the best of the best. At least they have a fighting chance, and they are from here, so no harm done. But I don't know if I could kill them. That's just me, and I'm not alone it seems.
No. I believe everyone has the right to do whatever they wish with their property, just like you said. And to say that culling is bad period is wrong. There are times when it is necessary to euthanize an animal to end their suffering. I never once said I plan on killing babies that don't hatch out to be the right color or even temperament... I couldn't do that. But I can see the point of view as to why someone would, I can understand their reasons and I don't think it's right to judge them. Period. That is my side of the argument.
I couldn't even stand to kill my own feeder mice, or rather have my husband do it, without crying over them. Which is why I buy frozen/thawed mice.
I've felt the pain of losing a pet, I know how it rips your heart out, even years after they're gone. I know that my own beloved dog is gaining years (she just turned 8) and that one day I might have to make a horrible decision if her health deteriorates. But I know that if she is in pain, if she has no quality of life, I would rather her be at peace than live because I don't have the guts to do what is best for HER.
I had the unfortunate experience of watching a baby corn snake starve herself. She refused to eat, no matter what I tried. She got to a point where even force feeding wouldn't have helped, she was too far gone. I had a local friend help me euthanize her because she was already so weak and sickly that it was only a matter of time. I couldn't bear to see her waste away and could only imagine how bad she must have felt going so long without any nourishment.
You did the right thing for your dog. You let her go to sleep, you ended her suffering. I know it hurt like hell, but at least she isn't hurting anymore. I can't stand to watch the ones I love suffer in pain, not when I can stop it. *hugs to Mrs. Z*
Medusacoils: I have asked this question of others and still not got an answer: If I take some my hatchlings (the ones I want) and feed the rest to a kingsnake (their natural food), is that culling or feeding? Moral or immoral?
Snakehead: IMO releasing any once captive animal is not a good thing. You have tampered with that snake. It has been introduced to other captive breds and such. This is how things like TB is spreading amongst wild elk populations. Wild fish stocks are catching disease from captive fish farms along our coast. Not to mention the alterations to that snakes wild instincts. You talk about responsibilities of those that breed, but it applies to those catch wild animals as well.
(Not an attack just my opinion)
Snakehead: IMO releasing any once captive animal is not a good thing. You have tampered with that snake. It has been introduced to other captive breds and such. This is how things like TB is spreading amongst wild elk populations. Wild fish stocks are catching disease from captive fish farms along our coast. Not to mention the alterations to that snakes wild instincts. You talk about responsibilities of those that breed, but it applies to those catch wild animals as well.
(Not an attack just my opinion)
medusacoils
Mr. Enigma!
I wouldn't have a big problem with that. Providing sustenance to another animal or yourself isn't killing for "no reason". In reality I do this all the time. The majority of my snakes eat feeders I produce right here. I, on occasion, will order frozen feeders from a local breeder or RodentPro. The rest are raised here, pre-killed and either frozen or fed off.
I would call it feeding and moral. JMO!
Wayne
Snakehead
Bite Me! It's ok
I mentioned already, that if you have a snake like a cobra lets say, and it only eats snakes than, I wouldn't have a problem with that. I would not feed snakes to my kingsnakes because that re-enforces their canibalistic tendencies. I wouldn't do it because I don't want to increase the chances of one eating it's mate. None of my kingsnakes have ever tasted a snake except one Eastern Chain king that refused everything else.
As for the babies I release, they are fairly quick after they hatch and I see which ones I really like. So they haven't had time to get tainted. I have read about someone releasing hundreds of Corns.
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
Just because someone else released a lot more still doesn't make it right to release even 1, but since this thread is about corns let's say you do it the "right" way, and release untainted by the rest of the collection freshly hatched ones into the wild. How many of those are going to make it to live as a happy wild corn? Vs. how many will die at the claws & jaws of a hawk, cat, other snake, raccoon or whatever, And, is it worth releasing the rest to suffer a worse death than humane culling. Hmmm
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Jeff Linkchorst
Snake Rambler
This thread needs a bullet right between the eyes Jen. It went south a while ago. It started off well with good intentions. I am actually sorry I wasted my time reading this! Someone owes me at least a half an hour. :grin01:
Snakehead
Bite Me! It's ok
Lets say you had the choice of being killed or being released into your natural enviroment? I don't think there's any doubt which you would take. Like I said they will have a fighting chance. At least as much as any cornsnake born in the wild. I don't do it with all my corns, just the ones from this area. I realize some may take issue with it, but my point is that at least they are not being slaughtered by my hands. I don't have a problem with choosing which ones to procreate, my problem is slaughtering the less fortunate ones.