Info for would be corn breeders

[smallet]

It is nice to have the right to refuse service, yes?

 

[Chip]

I think I might have posted this earlier (perhaps another thread), people walking into my shop and asking "What's your cheapest snake?" I have $1.99 rubber snakes just for that purpose. They don't care what species, what it eats, its adult size, nothing. Just want to own a snake. I don't sell them one.

 

[Snakehead]

My Indigo snake enjoyed a F/T nonfeeder cull today. He'd be happy to take any humanely culled babies off of anyone's hands.

That's cool! I wish I could keep Indigos here. I find them in my back yard, but they are very protected here! All I can do is watch them crawl away, lol.

 

[Snakehead]

desertanimal: Now that is why I love debates like this! That is a point of view I have never thought of, nor would I have probably ever come up with. But when shed in that light it does kind of trivialize the whole discussion. Very good point anyways.

Yeah I need to take hit of that bong to try and understand his reasoning, lol.
So we are all a collective and what I do effects the entire universe! Yeah Dude! No, I am responsible for what I do! I am not responsible for the millions of dogs and cats and starving children. It's ok to want to help those causes, but if everyone were responsible with themselves first, we would not have quite so many problems.

 

[Snakehead]

I'd personally say that culling is each and every breeders personal choice, and we'll all apply different standards and criteria formed from our own personal views. I'm finding the flavour of personal attack in this thread truly distasteful. To claim moral superiority over another breeder for their humane practice of culling unsellable hatchlings? Really? So it would be better to sell 'em on?
Last year I had a horibly high rate of poor feeders. I'm sure I could have placed them many times over with people determined to save them, but they ended up feeding a clutch of king cobras. This means they have no chance of possibly passing on any genetic problems, more surely than if I'd worked my butt off to place them all with dedicated pet only homes. For me personally that was the only humane option.
I originally joined this site because of a poor feeder. I had all the help and support I could wish for and Lil is now pride of my collection as a pet who will only ever leave here dead and I'll never breed her. I can't guarantee that outcome for any kinked, runty or poor feeding corns I produce. In fact I can't give any guarantees once the healthy well-started hatchlings leave here that their new owners will give them a good life. Judging by the numbers of 'lost interest', 'not enough time' adult corns I see on adoption/sale sites I'd probably be best served by never breeding my corns again.

Look I find myself repeating myself over and over. Those snakes were not poor feeders! They were being offered food from someone who obviously is inexperienced with King Snakes, Gray bands in particular! If you fed your non feeders to a cobra then that's fine. But if you were trying to feed them earth worms because you can buy worms at the corner bait shop, and they refused worms, should you have killed them then? No, you were not providing proper husbandry! Innocent snakes were brought into this world so you could irresponsibly kill them. I find that distastefull!

 

[smallet]

Yeah I need to take hit of that bong to try and understand his reasoning, lol.
So we are all a collective and what I do effects the entire universe! Yeah Dude! No, I am responsible for what I do! I am not responsible for the millions of dogs and cats and starving children. It's ok to want to help those causes, but if everyone were responsible with themselves first, we would not have quite so many problems.

I am not saying we are responsible. Nor do I think that was his point. But just eluding to a bigger picture than the one we are looking at.

 

[Snakehead]

4, I have a few snakes from '08 that I'm "keeping for a good home." They have good temperaments and feeding responses. I don't understand why sub-par specimens must be kept in the gene pool just because I created them.

My point is those animals you described were not sub-par. They were perfectly normal, you just don't know how to care for king Snakes. As I mentioned earlier, I get most of my graybands to switch to pinkies without lizard scenting at all! They go on to eat mice voraciously from then on. Most baby Cal Kings start off nippy! They can easily be calmed down with patience! No sir, those animals were not sub-par.

 

[diamondlil]

Look I find myself repeating myself over and over. Those snakes were not poor feeders! They were being offered food from someone who obviously is inexperienced with King Snakes, Gray bands in particular! If you fed your non feeders to a cobra then that's fine. But if you were trying to feed them earth worms because you can buy worms at the corner bait shop, and they refused worms, should you have killed them then? No, you were not providing proper husbandry! Innocent snakes were brought into this world so you could irresponsibly kill them. I find that distastefull!

I'm really sorry, but I believe it was said that he did have success with some clutches, but chose to cull those that didn't meet his criteria.
'Innocent snakes'? Oh please, I raised my own cute as a button feeder mice. They didn't deserve to die, I chose to breed them as feeders, innocent mice dying for my evil purposes in raising snakes. The chicken I'm eating tonight probably could have made somene a lovely pet but it was instead killed for my dinner. If you eat meat, wear leather, own carnivorous pets then someone culling snakes in a humane manner by their own personal criteria cannot be called out in this way.

 

[Snakehead]

I'm really sorry, but I believe it was said that he did have success with some clutches, but chose to cull those that didn't meet his criteria.
'Innocent snakes'? Oh please, I raised my own cute as a button feeder mice. They didn't deserve to die, I chose to breed them as feeders, innocent mice dying for my evil purposes in raising snakes. The chicken I'm eating tonight probably could have made somene a lovely pet but it was instead killed for my dinner. If you eat meat, wear leather, own carnivorous pets then someone culling snakes in a humane manner by their own personal criteria cannot be called out in this way.

Again I repeat. mice and chickens are raised for food. If you raise snakes for food, I don't have a problem with that. The real problem is the low value of life that is expressed. To kill an animal because it won't eat what it was designed to eat is beyond me. I cringe to think about how many normal and het Corn snakes get "CULLED", just because they are not worth keeping! See the difference? Read his post again, he said nearly 100% of both snakes were culled for years. Then he retracted and said a couple years. Look I'm not on a crusade! I'm not trying to change anyones mind. This topic is very similar to abortion really! you either value the life you created or you don't! It's that simple. I'm not gonna continue to comment on this thread enough has been said, and we are all just repeating what's been already said. Cheers!

 

[POCooney]

Great post Janine!!!!! This thread could go on to infinity!!!! Probably best to "Cull" it now before anymore blood is shed.

Pat Glazener-Cooney

 

[Snakehead]

Great post Janine!!!!! This thread could go on to infinity!!!! Probably best to "Cull" it now before anymore blood is shed.

Pat Glazener-Cooney

Now I see, said the blind man!

 

[Em Wright]

This topic is very similar to abortion really! you either value the life you created or you don't!

You either value the life you created or you don't. Okay...

What about women who are raped and end up pregnant as a result? They weren't asking for it, they didn't want that life to be created. I'm sure they respect life, but imagine what it would be like to raise your rapist's baby. Imagine what it'd be like for the baby to grow up knowing it was the by-product of a horrible crime against their mother. Life is precious, I will not refute that, but there are times when living creatures should be put out of their misery or not allowed into the world at all.

Some friends of mine (a married couple) have a really nice little dog that they have failed to get spayed and that they keep 24/7 outside. She came into heat and was bred by a much larger dog. They still didn't get her spayed... the reason why? The husband told me he didn't believe in abortion. I wanted to reach across the table and slap him so hard. I warned them that if the male dog was a lot bigger it was possible the female wouldn't be able to pass them. Thankfully there were no complications and she gave birth to 11 puppies. Only four lived. And now they're stuck with those four puppies that nobody wants, but the husband still likes to complain about feeding five dogs. :headbang:

In my opinion the responsible thing to do would have been to spay the dog before she even got pregnant. But considering the facts they still should have spayed her even though she'd been bred. There are so many unwanted dogs and cats in this world, it is irresponsible to allow more to be brought into it. That is why I flat out refuse to breed dogs of any kind, even though I know I could really enjoy seeing the puppies be born and watch them grow up. There's already so many unwanted, why bring more into the world?

You may not agree with Chip's standards, but you don't have the right to sit there and condemn him. You can split hairs all you want about "it's okay to kill for a purpose", but when you get right down to it... Killing is killing. Period.

Also, you don't know the area that Chip lives in. You don't know all the circumstances. It is very possible that lizard eating kingsnakes are unwanted in his area, that he would have been unable to find them homes. It is also possible he DID try to get them on pinkies and failed to do so, then culled them. Without knowing all the details you really can't say he did anything wrong and comparing it to abortion is just silly in my opinion.

 

[diamondlil]

You either value the life you created or you don't. Okay...

What about women who are raped and end up pregnant as a result? They weren't asking for it, they didn't want that life to be created. I'm sure they respect life, but imagine what it would be like to raise your rapist's baby. Imagine what it'd be like for the baby to grow up knowing it was the by-product of a horrible crime against their mother. Life is precious, I will not refute that, but there are times when living creatures should be put out of their misery or not allowed into the world at all.

Some friends of mine (a married couple) have a really nice little dog that they have failed to get spayed and that they keep 24/7 outside. She came into heat and was bred by a much larger dog. They still didn't get her spayed... the reason why? The husband told me he didn't believe in abortion. I wanted to reach across the table and slap him so hard. I warned them that if the male dog was a lot bigger it was possible the female wouldn't be able to pass them. Thankfully there were no complications and she gave birth to 11 puppies. Only four lived. And now they're stuck with those four puppies that nobody wants, but the husband still likes to complain about feeding five dogs. :headbang:

In my opinion the responsible thing to do would have been to spay the dog before she even got pregnant. But considering the facts they still should have spayed her even though she'd been bred. There are so many unwanted dogs and cats in this world, it is irresponsible to allow more to be brought into it. That is why I flat out refuse to breed dogs of any kind, even though I know I could really enjoy seeing the puppies be born and watch them grow up. There's already so many unwanted, why bring more into the world?

You may not agree with Chip's standards, but you don't have the right to sit there and condemn him. You can split hairs all you want about "it's okay to kill for a purpose", but when you get right down to it... Killing is killing. Period.

Also, you don't know the area that Chip lives in. You don't know all the circumstances. It is very possible that lizard eating kingsnakes are unwanted in his area, that he would have been unable to find them homes. It is also possible he DID try to get them on pinkies and failed to do so, then culled them. Without knowing all the details you really can't say he did anything wrong and comparing it to abortion is just silly in my opinion.

I owe you rep!

 

[Chip]

Read his post again, he said nearly 100% of both snakes were culled for years. Then he retracted and said a couple years.

I didn't retract a damn thing.

I have a pair of striped albino cal kings that I have culled 100% of the hatchlings for the last two years, simply for nasty attitudes.

You have exaggerated my statements and taken a pious, holier than thou attitude in every response and assumed that I "produce more than can can properly care for" and "don't know about kingsnakes." Sir, I've produced an sold a lot of kingsnakes. I've been doing this a long time. As graybands go, I wanted to work on a line that readily ate f/t mice. I held back a single male with the feeding response I was looking for and gave up on the project. I guess that means I just don't know enough about them. I'm pairing up snakes now, and will keep using my method. In the meantime, you breed by whatever criteria you wish.

 

[Snakehead]

You either value the life you created or you don't. Okay...

What about women who are raped and end up pregnant as a result? They weren't asking for it, they didn't want that life to be created. I'm sure they respect life, but imagine what it would be like to raise your rapist's baby. Imagine what it'd be like for the baby to grow up knowing it was the by-product of a horrible crime against their mother. Life is precious, I will not refute that, but there are times when living creatures should be put out of their misery or not allowed into the world at all.

Some friends of mine (a married couple) have a really nice little dog that they have failed to get spayed and that they keep 24/7 outside. She came into heat and was bred by a much larger dog. They still didn't get her spayed... the reason why? The husband told me he didn't believe in abortion. I wanted to reach across the table and slap him so hard. I warned them that if the male dog was a lot bigger it was possible the female wouldn't be able to pass them. Thankfully there were no complications and she gave birth to 11 puppies. Only four lived. And now they're stuck with those four puppies that nobody wants, but the husband still likes to complain about feeding five dogs. :headbang:

In my opinion the responsible thing to do would have been to spay the dog before she even got pregnant. But considering the facts they still should have spayed her even though she'd been bred. There are so many unwanted dogs and cats in this world, it is irresponsible to allow more to be brought into it. That is why I flat out refuse to breed dogs of any kind, even though I know I could really enjoy seeing the puppies be born and watch them grow up. There's already so many unwanted, why bring more into the world?

You may not agree with Chip's standards, but you don't have the right to sit there and condemn him. You can split hairs all you want about "it's okay to kill for a purpose", but when you get right down to it... Killing is killing. Period.

Also, you don't know the area that Chip lives in. You don't know all the circumstances. It is very possible that lizard eating kingsnakes are unwanted in his area, that he would have been unable to find them homes. It is also possible he DID try to get them on pinkies and failed to do so, then culled them. Without knowing all the details you really can't say he did anything wrong and comparing it to abortion is just silly in my opinion.

I feel like I'm speaking a different language here, lol. I mentioned abortion mainly because people have strong views on both sides of the arguement and niether side is going to change the other person's mind. What doea getting raped have to do with this, lol. But since you brought it up. Is it that child's fault that he was a product of rape? I agree you may not want to be reminded of it everytime you see that child, but maybe adoption would be a better choice? A little harder but I see it as better. The dog not being spayed does not fit the subject either. If he won't spay his dog because he doesn't believe in abortion then he isn't very smart I guess. Would you abort a fetus if you knew it wouldn't have blue eyes? That is more on the subject. I have successfully gotten Graybands to eat pinkies without using lizards. Almost 95% of them. It just takes a little effort! I feel like a broken record.

 

[Snakehead]

I didn't retract a damn thing.


You have exaggerated my statements and taken a pious, holier than thou attitude in every response and assumed that I "produce more than can can properly care for" and "don't know about kingsnakes." Sir, I've produced an sold a lot of kingsnakes. I've been doing this a long time. As graybands go, I wanted to work on a line that readily ate f/t mice. I held back a single male with the feeding response I was looking for and gave up on the project. I guess that means I just don't know enough about them. I'm pairing up snakes now, and will keep using my method. In the meantime, you breed by whatever criteria you wish.

I am not holier than thou. I said several times this is my opinion and I'm not trying to change anyones mind. You have the right I guess, to kill all your hatchlings for what ever reason you want. To me and to many experienced Kingsnake Keepers it shows lack of experience and/ or lack of effort. Split braining pinks works most of the time! Tease feeding them works great also! You could have gotten almost all of those to eat pinks. I don't sell any Grayband that isn't eating mice! My frustration is people making arguements that don't fit the point! I don't have a problem with Culling inferior animals, with defects! Those animals were not sub-par in the least. I would love to have some of Lee's Alterna.

 

[Chip]

Please, don't act as if you weren't taking an attitude. Just go back and read your own posts, I won't bother to cut an paste the many examples. And don't think I didn't wash and brain. I went way beyond that. There comes a point that if they wont take unscented pinks, I have no desire to sell them. And as for Cal kings, a percentage are docile. If we were ruthless about keeping only those back for breeding purposes, that percentage would grow, if not near 100%. Baby reptiles are a nutritionally *perfect* chameleon supplement. There's a short window when most colubrid snakes are small enough to be a food item. So I don't give them 6 months, but I do give them many, many handling sessions.

Those animals were not sub-par in the least. .

They were by my standards. I'm not selling snakes with a baggie of frozen anole so the new owner can scent to get his snake to eat.

 

[diamondlil]

I am not holier than thou. I said several times this is my opinion and I'm not trying to change anyones mind. You have the right I guess, to kill all your hatchlings for what ever reason you want. To me and to many experienced Kingsnake Keepers it shows lack of experience and/ or lack of effort. Split braining pinks works most of the time! Tease feeding them works great also! You could have gotten almost all of those to eat pinks. I don't sell any Grayband that isn't eating mice! My frustration is people making arguements that don't fit the point! I don't have a problem with Culling inferior animals, with defects! Those animals were not sub-par in the least. I would love to have some of Lee's Alterna.

For this breeder, those hatchling were inferior by his standards. Which effectively negates your arguments I'm afraid

 

[Snakehead]

I'm not selling snakes with a baggie of frozen anole so the new owner can scent to get his snake to eat.

I've never had to do that! That's why I have to conclude inexperience. I admit I did get a bit frustrated, I said that already, because of some of the answers that were so repetative. I don't agree with you but you have the right to do it. I was honestly just shocked at the amount of people who concurred with you. it really is funny how opinions are flipped around on the King Snake forum. I find that very interesting to say the least! We can agree to disagree!

 

[Em Wright]

Snakehead... I thought you were done posting in this thread because you wanted to "agree to disagree" and yet you continue to argue your point... :shrugs:

I believe my points did have a bearing on the conversation. They were examples and instances where "culling" might be the best option for the people involved. Sure there are other options, but those options are not for everyone.

I owe you rep!

That's okay, I owe you some, too!