Info for would be corn breeders

[wendhend]

I think I might have posted this earlier (perhaps another thread), people walking into my shop and asking "What's your cheapest snake?" I have $1.99 rubber snakes just for that purpose. They don't care what species, what it eats, its adult size, nothing. Just want to own a snake. I don't sell them one.

The rubber snake is great idea, Chip! Hopefully it gets the point across with a bit of humor! It's always kind of tricky to deal with these customers whose only standard for the snake(s) they purchase is that they be "cheap".... especially with the ones who pretty obviously want to breed them, like the person who contacted me yesterday wanting to buy "two cornsnakes adult the cheapest you have 1 male and 1 female." Don't they even care what they are going to produce?

 

[diamondlil]

I bred my first corns because I had lovely healthy corns that had the potential to produce desirable offspring. And again the next year. Then I found I had the means to work towards a personal morph goal and having had all the excitement of producing my first pippies, the heartache of ones that didn't hatch, hatchlings that didn't thrive I'm now taking this year off and next year only pairing my project snakes. And only because I feel the results will be unusual and pretty enough to appeal to breeders and keepers. Info for wouldbe breeders includes very good reasons not to pair your snakes, which is probably how this thread has been led astray. I'm choosing not to breed my more common morphs because corns are so easy to breed that their price and their value in some keepers eyes is so low. Over here I'd be willing to bet not many corns live out their full potential lifespan with their original buyers.

 

[smallet]

I never brought this up before....But there are some high end breeders of dogs that will euthanize a puppy that does not meet standards, just on the premise to raise the price of their litter. As in see how perfect ALL these puppies are from this line. When I was into breeding and showing dogs it was quite suspicious that there 10 puppies in the litter and then at the next show there was only 7 that survived...consistently. But one could not prove anything it was a suspicion. My point being that euthanizing happens in breeding and not always for reasons we all will agree with.

 

[Em Wright]

We are? I wasn't. I thought and hoped we were talking about reasons to breed or not breed corn snakes and information that might help new breeders. I choose to cull only deformed or non eaters, so do most breeders. But I really hate that this has turned into a witch hunt against people who cull for any other reason. They are trying to improve the bloodlines which benefits the hobby. They are putting their culled snakes back into the food chain. There is a finite number of "pet only" homes. As stated endless times already you can't spay or neuter the snakes.

I'd also like to point out that no where did anyone admit to culling snakes based upon their appearance. The issue was temperament and the snakes' unwillingness to take pinkies over lizards. What they looked like was not what caused them to be culled, so please stop perpetuating that it was. Keep to the facts.

Actually, perhaps we should keep to the original intent of this topic and drop the culling debate. No one is changing anyone's minds and repeating the same things over and over is just tiresome.

Back to the topic...

I agree completely with diamondil concerning the breeding of low end morphs. When I decided I wanted to breed I also decided that I wanted to work with higher end genetics and not create unwanted babies. Any common snakes I breed will at least have high end hets and I have gone to lengths to pick snakes that share some genetics in order to produce babies that others will want, while also working toward my own personal goal.

My desire to breed is based upon wanting certain morphs and to provide healthy, happy pets for others. One of my most happy memories was when I got my first snake. It was a breeder who gave me that experience, who made sure my first snake ate mice readily, had a good temperament, and was healthy. I want to give that to others as a way of not only honoring the breeder, but my first snake as well.

I've also decided that any babies I produce that I can't rehome will have a place with me until I do find homes for them or forever as the case may be. I'm not in this for money, I'm in it for the love of the animals and for the chance to share that love with others.

 

[POCooney]

Jen, getting back to your intent, in the late 60's through the 70's, I bred and wholesaled African Cichlids from Lake Malawi and Tanganyika. At first they sold for big $$$ but since all but a very few were super easy to breed people started producing thousands of fry with no regard for locality nor for outbreeding. This resulted in locale crosses that diminished the vibrancy and health of the fry while destroying the market. And in the case of Neolamprologus brichardi it led to thousands of deformed fish. I got out of the business because of this indiscriminate breeding. But I also have trouble telling somebody not to breed their stock. It's often a catch 22 situation.

Shalom,

Pat

 

[slitheringdead]

I'd also like to point out that no where did anyone admit to culling snakes based upon their appearance. The issue was temperament and the snakes' unwillingness to take pinkies over lizards. What they looked like was not what caused them to be culled, so please stop perpetuating that it was. Keep to the facts.

You are correct that no one *admitted* to culling based on appearance, but if you read posts such as, #54, 66, and 74, you'll see that culling based on color was advocated by the posters as a valid reason for culling.

 

[Em Wright]

I'd even go to say that I respect a person breeding for temperament/color that culls sub-par animals more than someone who pumps out babies without any discrimination or planning at all just because they can or because they like looking at baby snakes.

Sure, you can just sell off snakes that have bad color or temperament, but with the way animals in this hobby are often shifted between people so often, odds are that at some point someone is going to breed them. That's not bettering the 'breed' for domestic/pet uses and is not doing anything but contribute to the flooded market.

OK...Man selectively bred these for what vital purpose and how is the creation of these any different than what we are doing with snakes?

We created these solely for our pleasure. They serve no other purpose, just like the breeding of snakes for their color...and their temperament. And if you think "culling" doesn't occur elsewhere in our society with other beloved pet species? Have you visited an animal shelter recently to see how many dogs and cats are "culled" on a daily basis? At least snake breeders have the courage and the decency to do their own dirty work and not just dump the excess or undesirables on the street or at these shelters for someone else to deal with.

And who is to say that in 500 years, snakes aren't serving a vital purpose for man by hunting rodent pests in their homes? We've only touched the tip of the iceberg with what we can select for in terms our snakes. Man didn't find a true dog in the wolf pack overnight. He chose the most docile and least aggressive one to keep and killed the rest as he didn't need any more dangerous animals to deal with.

I thought I'd go ahead and quote those posts you mentioned so people can see what it is you're referring to without having to go back and dig it up.

Culling them in the name of selective breeding is just a convenient excuse for not taking responsibility.

Culling is a necessary evil, but we should not compare breeding snakes to make better pets, to domesticating livestock as a source of food, or dogs to help us hunt and herd, or horses and cattle as beasts of burden. The domestication of the aforementioned animals serves a *vital practical purpose* and improves the quality of life to humans, whereas selective breeding of snakes (or any animal) for pets serves a non-vital purpose. That's a very important difference to acknowledge.

This is your post right before post #54...

You brought up selective breeding, which to me includes coloration just as much as temperament and eating habits. You go on to talk about selective breeding snakes for pets and how it is a non-vital purpose...

From what I can see these people were just responding to you and what you brought to the conversation. Did you mention coloration specifically in your post? No, you used a general term that certainly included it, but did not specify or single it out.

Since then you've gotten to the point where the other issues, what was actually said to spur this debate in the first place, are not even mentioned in your posts. You've picked the worst detail, the one that seems most senseless, and you appear to be ignoring everything else in favor of it. That's just what I see in your posts, maybe that's not your intent, but that's what I see.

Many people have mentioned seeing Normals and other abundant morphs selling for extremely low prices at shows. The market is flooded with them and as mentioned they have become a disposable pet. Maybe you don't see it, but culling them when they hatch would certainly be better than having them starve or thirst to death, or be released outside when the novelty wears off, or flushed down the toilet, or any other number of horrible things they might endure at the hands of uncaring pet owners who don't care because the animal only cost $10. Would it not be better for them to die peacefully in the hands of someone who cares about them?

You talk about being responsible, well sister, that includes making hard decisions and looking at the bigger picture. Sometimes what is best for the animal is to be laid to rest, whether they are suffering presently or may endure suffering in the future.

Don't get me wrong. I do believe you should take precautions, breed responsibly in the first place, and do your best not to make unwanted pets. I don't mean to condone culling without a dang good reason, but I can say that I understand it and that given certain circumstances I might make the choice to cull if it were in the best interest of the animal in question.

 

[slitheringdead]

I wasn't the first person to use the term selective breeding. See post #40. In that context, it was referring to temperament and food preference. When i first responded to the thread (post #52), i used selective breeding in the same context as when it was first used. I did not imply color preference at all. Regardless, even if i did use the term first, don't put words in my mouth by saying that i meant something when i did not.

 

[slitheringdead]

Hey, sorry if my last post sounded harsh. I just need to stop responding because i feel like i'm beating a dead horse. OK... this is it... i swear... no more responses in this thread! It was a good discussion and i hope we all learned something. I certainly did, which is a good thing, because i'm probably now blackballed from this site.

 

[desertanimal]

I am not holier than thou.

Really?

Yeah I need to take hit of that bong to try and understand his reasoning, lol.

Well at the very least, you certainly have implied that you are more rational than thou. Or maybe just more rational than I (since you implied that my thinking was so muddied that I must be under the influence of illegal substances--something I didn't find particularly amusing, as you will no doubt gather from my tone in this post). However, I doubt that. Case in point: you've made a long list of assumptions about Chip and his experience with absolutely no data to support them.

My argument was a very long if:then statement. Let me explain how those work. If you didn't meet all of the criteria listed under the "if," statement, then I wasn't talking about you. In point of fact, I was not, so your responses to my position statement are obviated and irrelevant as responses to my position statement. You have never made a single remark that suggests you think all life is sacrosanct, you have merely disputed the positioning of someone else's arbitrary cut-off value for culling, because you think the bar was set unreasonably high. You went on to insist over and over again that the bar was set too high without any knowledge of the person you were claiming this about, and without any knowledge of what that person did to get his snakes over that bar.

You repeatedly claim that the kingsnake people agree with you wholeheartedly. No doubt they did, since no doubt you presented Chip as some random Joe Schmoe who knows not a thing about kingnsnakes and who tried not a thing to get them switched over to mice, since that is what you assumed about him without any basis but your own experiences (which are irrelevant to knowing his) to guide you. The reason the reaction of the people here differs from the reaction of the kingsnake people is that we do not see Chip through your fog-laden lens. We actually know who he is, and can make evidence-based inferences (from our collective past knowledge of him) about what he might have tried to get the snakes in question feeding before he culled them. We did not jump to the unfavorable and baseless conclusions that you did and that the kingsnake people, because they would have had nothing else to go on, probably took at face value. Mystery solved.

 

[Dreamsnake]

We as human beings control the animals populace on this planet. Sometimes by protecting the best, the week must be sacrificed. Even protected animals have a limited season in some states. New Mexico has a puma lottery. I don't agree with this policy, but I must accept it. The Mexican wolf is critically endangered, yet ranchers still shoot them. I don't like this, but I accept it. Need I mention the bison? The natural world bends to our hands. We have changed the vary substance of our climate. The big beautiful cold draft (pun not intended) horses are dieing out because they are no longer needed in our mechanized world. A breeder makes a tough decision not to allow the creatures he bred into the gene pool and stopped breeding that species altogether. Tragedies happen everyday; culling a few bad clutches isn't one of them.

 

[Outcast]

Yep, but for fish, amphibians, reptiles and birds, neutering isn't an option. Fancy rat and mouse breeders also cull rather than neuter, I expect fancy rabbit breeders do too, mostly. Culling is a fact of breeding, like it or not.

I used to breed rabbits for shows, and yes, the ones that did not make the cut got culled. Most went to the freezer, we were a waste not type of family, most of the time.
I cannot speak for other rabbit breeder's though.

 

[Outcast]

We as human beings control the animals populace on this planet. Sometimes by protecting the best, the week must be sacrificed. Even protected animals have a limited season in some states. New Mexico has a puma lottery. I don't agree with this policy, but I must accept it. The Mexican wolf is critically endangered, yet ranchers still shoot them. I don't like this, but I accept it. Need I mention the bison? The natural world bends to our hands. We have changed the vary substance of our climate. The big beautiful cold draft (pun not intended) horses are dieing out because they are no longer needed in our mechanized world. A breeder makes a tough decision not to allow the creatures he bred into the gene pool and stopped breeding that species altogether. Tragedies happen everyday; culling a few bad clutches isn't one of them.

Sorry for the double post, but along the lines of the horse comment, to back it up. Look at the history of the friesian, It has been a long time since I read the history of the breed, but from what I can remember is that it has gone through multiple "Extinction" type events in the past, and has been saved by only a few people who loved that breed of horse. They now have a strict registry for each and every horse of that breed and each horse is on a certain level of "purity". The ones who are too low, dare not be bred to the ones that are high in the chain.

It was about 6 years ago that I had read that information, so I am not sure exactly where I found it. But, it is a pretty good example of breeding certain traits, and getting rid of what isn't good. In order for it to be recognized as a friesian, one must go through a lot of paper work and conformation with the animal.

 

[Snakehead]

Really?



Well at the very least, you certainly have implied that you are more rational than thou. Or maybe just more rational than I (since you implied that my thinking was so muddied that I must be under the influence of illegal substances--something I didn't find particularly amusing, as you will no doubt gather from my tone in this post). However, I doubt that. Case in point: you've made a long list of assumptions about Chip and his experience with absolutely no data to support them.

My argument was a very long if:then statement. Let me explain how those work. If you didn't meet all of the criteria listed under the "if," statement, then I wasn't talking about you. In point of fact, I was not, so your responses to my position statement are obviated and irrelevant as responses to my position statement. You have never made a single remark that suggests you think all life is sacrosanct, you have merely disputed the positioning of someone else's arbitrary cut-off value for culling, because you think the bar was set unreasonably high. You went on to insist over and over again that the bar was set too high without any knowledge of the person you were claiming this about, and without any knowledge of what that person did to get his snakes over that bar.

You repeatedly claim that the kingsnake people agree with you wholeheartedly. No doubt they did, since no doubt you presented Chip as some random Joe Schmoe who knows not a thing about kingnsnakes and who tried not a thing to get them switched over to mice, since that is what you assumed about him without any basis but your own experiences (which are irrelevant to knowing his) to guide you. The reason the reaction of the people here differs from the reaction of the kingsnake people is that we do not see Chip through your fog-laden lens. We actually know who he is, and can make evidence-based inferences (from our collective past knowledge of him) about what he might have tried to get the snakes in question feeding before he culled them. We did not jump to the unfavorable and baseless conclusions that you did and that the kingsnake people, because they would have had nothing else to go on, probably took at face value. Mystery solved.

I wasn't going to comment on this but since you are the one jumping to conclusions. I made the bong comment because it really reminded me of the kind of thinking I used to do in high school when I used to party a bit too much. Thank GOD I got past that stage. I also realized that responsibility begins with the individual. As for the comments I posted on the KS forum. I merely said what Chip said and I also said I would not comment anyother opinion untill most people chimed in. Soemone actually found this thread, and linked it. Everyone who wanted to see for themselves came here and read the entire thread. It's still there you can go and read their views if you want. It's on King snake d ot c o m. Kingsnake forum. After giving this whole situation some thought. I think there is a divide of sorts from the kingsnake people. Most of them love locality animls which means the closer to the one in the bush the better! Here because Corns have been bred into almost every concievable color and pattern and they are so prolific, the market is drowning! So in order to rid oneself of unwanted animals that are near impossible to sell, Culling seems reasonable. Why keep all the hets that won't sell. Or even try to selectively engineer a gray band that will take pinkies from the egg. It boils down to producing an animal that is marketable at the expense of many, many perfectly healthy animals who may not be.

 

[Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)]

Culling: Another reason to think about the possibility of NOT breeding your animals. It's a big reason I don't. I wouldn't/couldn't cull. No amount of debate will ever change my mind. To me, it's wrong. Therefore, I'm not likely to do much breeding of ANYTHING. If I DO breed, the weak, the ugly, and the creatures with "less than desirable" temperaments would still be given their chance to live as full a life as they could. Yeah, maybe I'm a freak, but that's the way it is for me. I'm not God, and it's not my right to make decisions regarding who lives and who dies--I had enough of that working at a humane society/animal shelter for years. Never again.

 

[Snakehead]

Culling: Another reason to think about the possibility of NOT breeding your animals. It's a big reason I don't. I wouldn't/couldn't cull. No amount of debate will ever change my mind. To me, it's wrong. Therefore, I'm not likely to do much breeding of ANYTHING. If I DO breed, the weak, the ugly, and the creatures with "less than desirable" temperaments would still be given their chance to live as full a life as they could. Yeah, maybe I'm a freak, but that's the way it is for me. I'm not God, and it's not my right to make decisions regarding who lives and who dies--I had enough of that working at a humane society/animal shelter for years. Never again.

Your not a freak! Your consience is still in tact.

 

[desertanimal]

As for the comments I posted on the KS forum. I merely said what Chip said and I also said I would not comment anyother opinion untill most people chimed in. Soemone actually found this thread, and linked it. Everyone who wanted to see for themselves came here and read the entire thread. It's still there you can go and read their views if you want. It's on King snake d ot c o m. Kingsnake forum.

Fair enough. I retract my submitted explanation of why the reactions differed between here and ksdotcom and accept yours, which seems reasonable. And you are right--I jumped to unfounded conclusions about what you probably did just as you jumped to them about Chip. For that, I apologize. I was angered by your bong comment.

 

[Snakehead]

Fair enough. I retract my submitted explanation of why the reactions differed between here and ksdotcom and accept yours, which seems reasonable. And you are right--I jumped to unfounded conclusions about what you probably did just as you jumped to them about Chip. For that, I apologize. I was angered by your bong comment.

Sorry, this debate is obviously very heated and passionate. That is another similarity to the abortion topic. My first post was adressing Chip himself. He never mentioned trying to get them to feed, so I assumed he didn't know what he was doing. I know mexican Kings and Alterna can be very difficult for the average person. Yet like I said I can get my babies to eat mice with a little patience. I will admit I have had a few that I wanted to put thru a blender, but most do ok after that initial switching.

 

[Snakehead]

One more thing...

I wanted to add this...Once graybands switch over to mice they make the best pets! They rarely if ever bite their owners. I can't remember ever being bit by a Gray Band. So if he would have put that extra effort into them they would have been very good pets to sell at his shop.

 

[Em Wright]

I will admit I have had a few that I wanted to put thru a blender...

:laugh: I took in some non-feeders this last year and a couple were frustrating me quite a bit. I can't say I got the urge to put them in a blender, but I did have the urge to spank them!!

And when my Mom's snake is uncooperative during a photo shoot, him I'd LOVE to spank. Naughty boy. :grin01: