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is this normal...???

Their is a mention of snakes dieing in the book "whats wrong with my snake", just thought i would mention it as it is relavent to the thread.
 
Quigs said:
Spirit-

Captive herptoculture is definately still in it's infancy! As for the reason the "wild" snakes are mentioned so often is quite simple. We as keepers, if you will, we try to duplicate the "wild" as close as possible. Snakes are not domesticated creatures such as dogs or house cats. If snakes are not "happy", if they are stressed or completely out of their element they will not breed and may not survive at all! There are many species that are still not yet breeding very frequently or some not at all because we have not figured out the right mix for housing, temps, humidity, etc.
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EXACTLY. We have the choice on what substrate to use, so why chance using something that may or may not harm them, if accidentally ingested? Let's not forget the original subject of this thread, and the post to which I was replying... ;)

Cindy said:
It makes sense logically not to feed on substrate but I guess in the wild they wouldn't have any choice, but we don't know how many die of impaction in the wild... hmmm I dont know the answer but won't take the risk! interesting question...
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It's up to us to ensure our snakes (which live in captivity) are kept safe. And this of course pertains to not feeding on wood chips. :)

Now if you want to discuss "in the wild"... it's in their hard wiring to hide to protect themselves from being someone else's dinner. Which is why it's important for us to provide hides so our snakes feel safe. Make the environment as close to "in the wild" as we can. But does that mean possible endangerment to our babies by offering cedar hides? Cedarwood is found all over the wild, but we know better to not provide it.

As for what breeders use... uh... who cares? LOL! It's a completely moot point. Feeding on wood chips may harm snakes if the wood is ingested. It's really very simple.

tai_pan1: Am I taking a chance? On what? If you mean wood chip impactation, no I'm not. I feed in a box lined with plastic then paper towels, and I use what I believe to be a safe substrate in the tank (forest bed). But we all take chances. As much as we know about how snakes live in the wild, it is impossible that we know everything there possibly is to know. So we take the information we have, and we do the best we can to ensure proper care of them in captivity (while trying to keep the captive home as close to "in the wild" as we possibly can).

So to answer your question I'm sure we all take chances, but those chances are based on how well educated we are on snake care. So to protect him, based on what I know, I feed F/T, I do not use cedar (or pine) substrate, and I feed on a paper towels (which I throw away afterwards) and use a substrate I believe to be non harmful.
 
Yeah Cindy, their's a page on the subject, I havn't read it thourily yet but noticed a mention, i'll show you tommorow.
 
I would think a wild snake, if it was hungry, would enter a cedar forest and would gorge on substrate breaded mice (it may be dead in seconds!!! LOL (not laughing at snake death BTW)) but how many chemicals are there in newsprint, I know I have to wash my hands after reading the newspaper!!!
 
I never thought of that, but yeah the ink does have a tendancy to rub off on anything it touches, includung snake's I presume?
The way were going nothing is safe for our serpentine friend's
 
HAHA! Exactly. Newspaper doesn't appear to do any harm to our snakes, so some of us concider it safe. But if we didn't use it, would we prolong their lifespan?

I mean the answer to me is obvious (as dumb as the question is) but I'm just trying to prove a point. Cedar is proven to be bad so we don't use it. Newspaper has proven to be safe so some people do. It's assumed that the chemicals in newsprint have no ill effects on snakes, but does that mean it's safe in the long run? I would assume so since it's been used so often, but at the same time I chose not to use it because A: it's not "as close to in the wild as we can make it", and B: it's ugly. lol

Though it may be rare that a snake dies from accidental ingestion of a certain substrate, but it HAS happened (that we know of) so why would anyone want to feed their snakes on the same substrate, that has (according to past studies) killed others?

It just doesn't make sense to me.
 
Agreed
The newspaper thing was an example, but you are right. Nobody would knowingly use a substrate that may cause ill effect's for their snakes.
 
Spirit said:
As for what breeders use... uh... who cares? LOL! It's a completely moot point. Feeding on wood chips may harm snakes if the wood is ingested. It's really very simple.
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Sorry, I have to disagree. I don't find that being a moot point at all! Certainly breeders that have been at this business for 20-30 years must have some insight or at least an opinion on all this. They definately have more general knowledge and hands on experience than those of us only been in the industry for a few years or less!

I think some of us are completely missing the point of this thread. It's not be said or suggested that it's wise to feed on top of aspen substrate but rather a question, is it proven or has impaction been the KNOWN cause of side effects or death!

Mike, you have me sucked into this thread just enough, that I'm going to contact my vet and another vet I know of online to see what the opinions are from a medical stand point and those who have done necropsies dealing with impaction. I have a feeling you are entirely correct!

I'll post the replies as I get them. Stay tuned!

Quigs
 
I wern't agreeing with the the "moot point bit" but the bit about using a sutable substrate, as most people wont willingly harm their snakes by using the wrong substrate.

Quig's ill be watching as i would like to know where the "vet's" point of view are on this
 
Oh absolutely, Quigs. Breeders may have more experience in this, which might make their opinion just that much more valid, but it doesn't matter if you have 1 snake or 500.

The fact remains that it has been documented that snakes that ingest certain substrates during feeding, risk impactation (or other related problems) that may cause death. I mean you don't need a breeder to tell you cedar is unsafe... In my opinion, the same goes for feeding your snake on paper towels vs woodchips. I don't need a breeder to tell me the risks involved.

:)
 
Spirit said:
The fact remains that it has been documented that snakes that ingest certain substrates during feeding, risk impactation (or other related problems) that may cause death.
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Fact? Documented? Risk? May?

This statement is as open ended as they come.

We could get hit by a bus blind sided while crossing the street and get killed.

Possible, but very likely.

Quigs
 
Quigs said:
Fact? Documented? Risk? May?

This statement is as open ended as they come.

We could get hit by a bus blind sided while crossing the street and get killed.

Possible, but very likely.

Quigs
Click to expand...

Ahhh, but we still look both ways before crossing. ;)

Point being accidents happen, but we still do our best to prevent them.
 
For the record, I am part of the "why take a chance?" group and feed in a separate enclosure with no substrate.

I am thoroughly enjoying the debate though :nyah:

Tell Dr. Alan hi from Quigs :D
 
All right! This is what I love, thought provoking conversation. Quigs, you got the point I was trying to make. We say it's not safe, but how do we know? Spirit, you make mention of these facts being documented, and they may very well be, just I've never seen them. Is it documented? Have you read these studies? I would love to read them if I could get a copy. My point was that we should not take everything at face value, we need to question the advice that we are dispensing freely. I've told people in the past not to feed on wood chip substrate, but I have not one iota of proof that feeding on woodchip substrates ever caused any snake any harm.

If someone posted on this site and said that on December 14th the sky is going to be green and on the 15th it's going to be purple, you'd either think he was crazy or you would want him to prove his claim. In cyberspace it has become common place to "accept" what we read in a thread (or in our email) as gospel truth. An example: Recently there was an email floating around in cyberspace asking everyone to boycott Starbucks because the didn't support the troops ecetera. I recieved this email 5 times from different people. I investigated and found that it wasn't true. Unfortunately, there are probably a lot of people boycotting Starbucks because of this email.

All I'm saying is sometimes we need to look at what we "know to be true", to ensure that it is indeed true. In the Columbus' time, everyone believed that the world was flat, and they "knew this to be true".

Mike
 
P.S.

You guys (and gals) are great! Finally a debate where no one is flaming each other! :)

I am indeed happy!
 
Well maybe I used the word "documented" incorrectly, but upon my crapload of research (mostly online), I read all over the place the dangers of feeding on certain substrates. Not to mention on the packages themselves, they specify "safe if ingested" (or not). That has to come from somewhere, right? It COULD be something someone just made up, but I'm not willing to take the risk when it comes to my pet's life. And if the only way to find out for sure is to feed my snake wood chips... well, thanks, but no thanks.

But that's just me. :)

And no one is going to get sick and die if they DON'T drink starbucks - boycotting a major coffee company is a poor comparrison to risking an animals life by means of accidental ingestion of whatever substrate. But I got your point.

Oh and for the record, when the sky turns green and purple, they call that "the northern lights". Or if you really want to get technical... "Aurora Borealis". :p

Edit: Uuummm... never mind. It was just pointed out to me that I'm missing the ENTIRE point of this thread.

Carry on. :wavey:
 
LOL! I love your enthusiasm though. I agree with you, no way would I equate a cup of Starbucks coffee to my snakes (I've never actually had Starbucks coffe). The point I was trying to make (Unsuccessfully) was that we need to look at what we take at face value. We need to evaluate what "advice" we give, and determine if it's valid advice. Ingesting substrate may very well be dangerous to a snake, but how do we know? I tend to err on the safe side as well, but why? Am I wasting time and adding more time to my already busy feeding schedule? I'm sure that if it is a danger, people out there would have documented it, or experienced a death due to substrate impaction. Yet to this point I still know of no one who has had this happen. I'm just trying to take a critical look at the issue and determine if it is good advice.

Mike

P.S. The Aurora Borealis is beatiful (I've seen it twice), but that is not what I meant by green and purple sky, LOL. BUT you looked at it in a different manner and came up with an answer completely different that what I expected. That's all I'm trying to do as well (regardless of the ultimate answer)
 
Good advice? Between life and possible death?? *blink*

If someone tells you "do not feed on sand because if they ingest it while eating they could die", what harm is it REALLY doing to feed on paper towel instead? Sand (in the wild) contains high levels of vitamin E (or is it A... or D? LOL - I forget), but I'm not about to eat it for dinner. It makes sense that ingested sand COULD cause problems, so I chose to be smart and not take the chance. Forget the fact that most toddlers enjoy shoving their faces full of the stuff. Man... The number of times I had to wash sand out of some kids mouth... LOL

There's evaluating advice to determine it's validity... then there's just common sense. If something could be (obviously) dangerous, I don't do it.

:laugh: They northern lights really are beautiful. :)
 
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