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is this normal...???

ok, I think that I will jump back in here again...Looks like I missed a lot.

I agree that we should talk to people with a lot of experience with this, including breeders, both large and small, vets, and the like.

a little note on the newspaper thing, the ink rubs off on people because of the oils on the skin. Snakes don't release this oil, and thus the ink will not rub off on them...I have used newspaper on my snow and never seen the ink rub off. I would think that a black smudge on a white snake would be very noticeable.

There are 2 books that I have read that talk about substrate impaction and death. One is "What is wrong with my Snake" and the other is "Keeping Cornsnakes and other Rats" (I think the second is correct).

I am working on an email that I am going to send out to Don Solderburg to ask him about this topic and get his opinions on it. Will post here when I get an answer back.
 
pcar said:
There are 2 books that I have read that talk about substrate impaction and death. One is "What is wrong with my Snake" and the other is "Keeping Cornsnakes and other Rats" (I think the second is correct).
Click to expand...

Tai_Pan: That's "documented" enough for me. :D
 
pcar said:
I am working on an email that I am going to send out to Don Solderburg to ask him about this topic and get his opinions on it. Will post here when I get an answer back.
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He's a member here, why not just let him read it for himself? Maybe email him the link to this thread?

I dunno

Quigs
 
Quigs said:
He's a member here, why not just let him read it for himself? Maybe email him the link to this thread?

I dunno

Quigs
Click to expand...

Already did that...and here is what he has to say.

I use aspen bedding here. I feed them off the aspen whenever feesible. Personally, I have not had a death I could attribute to wood pulp impaction.
 
the ink rubs off on people because of the oils on the skin. Snakes don't release this oil,
Click to expand...
:sidestep: What was what the old time "Snake Oil" Carney men sold?
 
something that they mixed up to swindle money off the gullible.

Have you ever picked up an oilly snake?
 
Tai pan1 asked a simple question: What is the risk (read: occurance) of impaction feeding on Aspen. The occurance rate (risk) is not very high. In all honesty, that's the truth. The chance that the snake will ingest enough aspen to impact itself and kill itself is not very high. I believe that was the original question and that is the answer.

The rest is all opinion centered around how much risk is too much. Some people say ANY risk is too much, especially when it is preventable. Can't fault the logic. Some people say the risk is so small that it isn't worth all the extra time it would take to feed in extra containers and it's not a viable option. Also an acceptable opinion. Point being, you are either able to accept the risk vs. inconvenience factor or you aren't. Neither side is "right", it's an opinion, not fact.

Personally, I have fed on aspen. Have I ever had a problem from it? I've picked pieces out of several snake's mouths that were having trouble "spitting out" a piece of aspen. I've had snakes ingest and pass pieces of aspen to no harm. I would never feed a wet mouse on aspen unless I wanted it to stick like shake-n-bake, but a dry mouse will go down with little to no aspen as they often work to exclude it. Another step up from feeding right on the aspen is to feed on a piece of newspaper on the aspen. Helps some, especially with wet mice. You will have the occasional snake still drag it off and roll it until it's lightly breaded with aspen.

I don't feed on aspen right now because I feel my crew eat better when confined in a deli cup of appropriate size within their cage. I like the added bonus that there is no risk of substrat ingestion, but it wasn't my driving motive. I don't think people who won't feed on aspen because of the risk are wrong, I applaud them and their concern for their pets. I also don't think people who feed on aspen are wrong when applying common sense (such as not feeding slimey mice on aspen).

As far as the aspen itself goes, when wet it will soften a bit, but does not digest. If the snake eats enough, it can lodge and cause an impaction. Pure and simple. And yes, I've done necropsies where that has been the case...but very few, and many times on snakes that were sickly prior to obstructing and may have even blocked with aspen due to low gut motility. No way to know which came first, egg meet chicken.


So, fact: Risk of impaction from aspen ingestion is not very high, %wise. In my collection it is 0% after several hundred snakes. And all have been kept on aspen and fed on it at some point or another.

Opinion, of which everyone has one: Is the risk worth convenience of feeding on aspen? There is no "correct" answer.
 
pcar said:
Already did that...and here is what he has to say.

I use aspen bedding here. I feed them off the aspen whenever feesible. Personally, I have not had a death I could attribute to wood pulp impaction.
Click to expand...

Had doesn't mean won't. But I am very glad to hear this. :D

Funny though, how some people think snakes ARE slimy/oily. lol

Hurley: Even if the risk is one in a billion, I still would rather not take it. It's a personal choice, really.
 
Hurley: Even if the risk is one in a billion, I still would rather not take it. It's a personal choice, really.
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Exactly. It's a choice. Your choice. An opinion. Like I said, everyone has a different tolerance for risk vs. benefit. Doesn't make it right or wrong, just different.

Fact: Snakes can impact from aspen.
Fact: The frequency that it is actually seen is low.

How you use the facts in the care for your snake is using your best judgement. It's the best that we all can do.
 
Whoa...i missed this thread getting so heated...anyway...i just wanted to point out (& i know y'all will probably flame me all to hell for this)..that i had a corn, Magenta, who died, i believe from substrate injestion...(some kind of bark)...it's hard to know exactly..she was loosing weight..had those skin wrinkles..started refusing to eat...and when i found her dead, there was substrate in her mouth...makes me think she had injested some...she was also a snow...so i could see dark spots inside her (& since she had been refusing to eat..well...) the conclusion i came to was that the substrate had killed her...i could of course be wrong...as a direct result of all this i keep my current snake, Maizie, on calci-sand....(I KNOW MOST OF YOU DISAGREE WITH THIS!) ..it says it is safe if injested...Maizie is now almost 2 yrs old...i have never had any problems with her injesting this stuff & i feed in a separate container...& (please keep in mind this is only my opinion) it seems to me that little tiny granuales of sand (that is made to be injestible!) will go down easier (if swallowed) than large chunks of bark or aspen or whatever!...PLEASE do not trash me for this..it's a decision i had to make when Magenta died :cry: i just wanted to share my experience, thanks :eek1:
 
I don't agree with using sand but can imagin where your coming from, if one of my snakes died from a suspected imactation of substrate I would also change it to something else. But not sand as i have seen a kenyan sand boa who lives in sand in the wild, struggle with shedding and at first struggled with passing anything because she was kept in sand (it was before i got her and she was kept in sand and fed in her viv, where as now she feeds in a seperate feeding box), so thats why i dont like sand as it had a bad effect on her.
Just a personal note that on why i don't use it, and that i do understand why you changes substrates neferandrobin.
 
I'm not trashing you on this, just wanted to let you know my experience with it. I haven't seen as many snakes kept on Calci-sand as I have seen beardies on it...and have seen several beardies so full of it, their intestines looked like they were packed with concrete. Granted, Beardies will and do put anything and everything in their mouths. I've also seen them pass marbles, so there ya go. Calci-sand is also quite a bit drying, as well, so when shed times come around, consider putting in a humidity box.

As to your snake dying, I am sorry to hear about it, it's devestating. Almost certainly one of the dark spots was the gall bladder, which leaks green bile after they die. Dark area up further is the heart. Was she actually swollen around the dark spots? They usually are around an impaction. As to the aspen stuffed in her mouth when she died, many in their last seconds will thrash about, many will bite their sides, it is not unthinkable to think that she just got a mouthfull of aspen in her last moments. In fact, I would bet this is what happened, but we will never know for sure.

I'm not going to harp on you about the Calci-sand, use your own discretion and common sense. Good idea not feeding on it. While calcisand may pass in small amounts (like aspen), it can and does cause impactions as well if ingested in large enough quantities. Also be on the watch for them getting it caked in their nostrils if they burrow, especially if they crawl from the water bowl into the sand and burrow. It is fine and has the postential to clog nostrils.
 
Just a question, but safe for snakes? Turtles? Lizards?

Sand has it's disadvantages (I wouldn't use it no matter how "safe" they claim it to be), but you say you haven't had any problems and I hope you never will. Thanks for posting that, Nef.
 
yes spirit, safe for snakes as well as others...and Maizie has always been a great shedder...i did used to give er a humidity box wen she was littler...but i haven't in a long time..i just mist er when i know she's going into shed..and the dark spots in Magenta were more than just the organ spots...i think..thanks for not being evil in your replies!
 
neferandrobin said:
thanks for not being evil in your replies!
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We're all here to help. If there's one thing I've learned from living in Vancouver it's "Always know where your drugs come from". :laugh:

I joke, but the same rule applies here... KNOW your substrate. Know the advantages and disadvantages of each (ie. How well does it retain heat. Is it mold or bacteria resistant? What CAN happen if ingested. Etc).

:)
 
pcar said:
There are 2 books that I have read that talk about substrate impaction and death. One is "What is wrong with my Snake" and the other is "Keeping Cornsnakes and other Rats" (I think the second is correct).
Click to expand...

I went through the entire "What is wrong with my snake" book today and did not find the reference that you mentioned. I did see a picture of a corn with an impaction caused by corn cobb substrate.

Can you give me a page reference?

OK what should we discuss as our next hot button issue..........f/t vs live?

Just kidding!

Mike
 
I don't personally own the book. I have read it and I thought that I remembered reading about this issue. :shrugs:

neferandrobin, I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your snake. I know first hand how devistating that can be. I lost my second corn to a shedding problem. But, I was able to get a new corn to replace her. I think that I still even have pictures of the lost one on my computer at home.

I still think that everyone should just use their common sense on wether to feed on aspen or not...as long as one knows the risks and they are willing to take them, then to each his own. I am really glad that this thread was started so that people can learn the risks associated with this.
 
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