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Missing person : Betsy (username: "wstphal")

A person, who was in phone and text and forum contact, seemingly happy, days earlier, doesn't put a $1200 down payment on snakes and just drop off the face of the earth, without something being drastically wrong. Not a person who is not just a taker, but someone who has given extremely generously to forum members in various tight financial situations. I do not believe this is a simple case of "not wanting anything to do with us." Something extreme happened.
 
I'm still not so sure why she has been called a thief just yet. "Breeding Loans" would indicate that the animals would be needed for at least another month, or close to it, and at least me, personally...I still believe in an individual being innocent until proven guilty. In this case, innocent until she actually does something wrong.

Eric, I can see that your involvement comes from a position of genuine concern for her well-being. I don't think anyone can fault you for caring about someone you've grown close to that suddenly decides to drop all contact. I think it's sad, for you, but truthfully...you can't force someone to be your friend. Putting forth more effort to mend a friendship that is evidently considered dead by the other party is never going to give you satisfying results, and you don't deserve that. For your own sake, I urge you to let it go before ytour emotional attachment becomes a detriment to your health.

Those that have breeding loans out...This is an awkward situation. From a purely personal standpoint, I can't see giving someone my animals upon our first meeting. No matter how "close" we are on the internet, I wouldn't entrust my animals to someone whose house I've never seen, techniques I've never witnessed, animals I've never met, and attention to details is completely unknown.

My feelings really are two-fold...first...she hasn't actually done anything wrong yet. Being worried for your animals well-being is great, but as I said above...it's still breeding season, so breeding animals on loan probably shouldn't be expected back yet, anyhow. Second...while I sincerely hope and trust that all borrowed animals will be returned to their rightful owners in a timely manner I have to say...it wouldn't surprise if they weren't. I mean seriously...if you gave your animals to a complete stranger that lives 1,500 miles away from you...you kinda don't really have anyone to blame but yourselves, in my opinion. Especially if you failed to draw up and sign a written contract...

I like wstphal. She was always a fantastic person on the forum, and I truly hope her life is heading in precisely the direction she intends, with or without CS.com...
 
I have snakes on breeding loan from Carol and John F. They've never seen my facility. Carol sent me the freaking peppermint stripe! I don't think it's unreasonable in a case where you have formed some sort of relationship with a person.

It's not just Eric. Many of us had what we thought were close, personal relationships with Betsy. We communicated DAILY.
 
Oh- I remember my other point. Desert Animal sent me snakes to babysit for a year when she was out doing field work. We've never met at all!
 
I guess I should clarify my end of the "breeding loan" to Betsy. I was financially in a tough spot. I needed someone to watch a group of my snakes while I got back on my feet (I was moving from Florida back home to Illinois to move back in with my parents). I was originally going to sell a bunch of my snakes but Betsy came forward and offered to watch them for me temporarily. Having met her in Daytona and been in contact with her via this forum, I thought it was a great offer. I wasnt sure how long I was going to need her to watch them for me. So, she mentioned having some snakes that would be good matches for mine while she had them in her care. So I agreed that she could breed them if she had them that long. Well, before that time approached I was doing ok and asked for them back. No response. Nothing. We didnt really have a breeding loan contract. She was technically just snake-sitting for me. So now what do I do? She has had them since September.
 
When you have property that belongs to someone else and you not only don't give it back when asked but say that you want NO contact with anyone, you're a thief. Unless those snake magically appear on the owners doorstep.

I don't have a problem with her in particular, this is just the way, I think, things are shaking out. She may not have meant to steal them, she may well be intending to return them, however, as of now, she's keeping what is not hers and what has asked to be returned.

Besides thief, what word would you use if she were not a well, or previously well, liked member here?
 
I am the "other party" whose snakes she has. She has 4 of mine. I had first met her in person in July when I bought a sunkissed adult male "Gus" from PJ. Betsy offered to drive him down to me to save me on shipping and we met close to my house. We seemed to get along right away.
Then we met in Daytona and pretty much saw each other all weekend. And talked online every single day. She came to visit me in November, we went out to lunch and cleaned cages at my house. I was going into the hospital for surgery in December, and quite honestly was scared spitless, mostly about how much I would be able to do when I got out. She offered to take 4 of my snakes to lessen my load. And hugged me when she left.
We talked daily right up until December 6 when she disappeared. At this point I am still more hurt than anything else.

She does not live really close to me, and I have issues as far as driving. I am not really sure what to do at this point, but am so very grateful for friends like Eric....
 
Nanci said:
A person, who was in phone and text and forum contact, seemingly happy, days earlier, doesn't put a $1200 down payment on snakes and just drop off the face of the earth, without something being drastically wrong. Not a person who is not just a taker, but someone who has given extremely generously to forum members in various tight financial situations. I do not believe this is a simple case of "not wanting anything to do with us." Something extreme happened.
Click to expand...

Nanci, this is the part that keeps me awake at night....She was always VERY generous and kind. When animals were being raffled off to help out Katie, Betsy bought tickets for other people to give them chances to win....the message sent to Eric did not sound like her AT ALL. Frankly, I am terrified for both her and the animals.
 
Nanci said:
Oh- I remember my other point. Desert Animal sent me snakes to babysit for a year when she was out doing field work. We've never met at all!
Click to expand...

Quite true. I also sent them to Dale and Katie and I'd never met them. But I had "known" you on the internet for a couple of years by then, and all three of you were closely connected to/personally well-known by a whole bunch of other long-time forum members, so I felt the odds that anything strange would happen were low because you were all so connected to the community at large and surely wouldn't lose face over a couple of not-all-that-valuable cornsnakes. But this really was just the cognitive side of me backing up the other side, which was that I trusted you. But it's true that you can really never know. I guess if you trust someone, you trust them and if you don't, you don't. And that is a very personal and individual thing.

I'm sorry for all of you who feel like you've lost a friend.
 
starsevol said:
Nanci, this is the part that keeps me awake at night....She was always VERY generous and kind. When animals were being raffled off to help out Katie, Betsy bought tickets for other people to give them chances to win....the message sent to Eric did not sound like her AT ALL. Frankly, I am terrified for both her and the animals.
Click to expand...

Well I'd say that you, more than anyone in this situation, actually have something to leverage to find out what's going on. She has your property and is ignoring your attempts to get it back. Eric has no "skin in the game," so for him to continue to pursue it is unreasonable. He's "just" a spurned friend, and he's been asked to lay off, so he really has to. She is beholden to you because she has your property. It can only be those of you whose property she has who can take further steps to get to the bottom of it.
 
I don't believe there is a law that prevents the rest of us from being curious about it, or talking about it, or speculating about it, though.
 
Nanci said:
I don't believe there is a law that prevents the rest of us from being curious about it, or talking about it, or speculating about it, though.
Click to expand...

No, not at all. I'm not trying to imply that anyone is in the wrong.

I'm just saying that if it's keeping starsevol up at night, she's the only one, at this point, who has reasonable grounds to actively pursue it. And if it's keeping her up at night, she should pursue it. Or at least, I would if it were keeping me up at night and I had reasonable grounds upon which to do so.

Edited to add: Oh, I get how you were reading me. No, I wasn't criticizing the talking. Most of you are limited to only talking now that she's asked you to leave her alone. But a couple of you aren't. So the couple that aren't limited to talking should try something more than hand-wringing. That's what I was getting at.
 
Thanks to everyone for the dialogue.
Thanks, Nanci, Beth, and Angela.

And for anyone looking on, I consider dionythicus, desertanimal, tyflier, and ghosthousecorns online friends, as well, whose opinions and points of view I trust. And I thank them for speaking their minds. I can take it, and fine tune my perspective accordingly.
 
I just read this thread, and wanted to chime in and offer my sympathies.

It isn't normal to drop off of the earth like this, and I would be concerned as a friend of Betsy, also. I understand the hurt- but this is also a reason for worry. It isn't normal behavior to suddenly, drastically, change behavior.

I hope that Betsy is doing alright in her life, and that she is getting the support she needs to help her get through whatever is going on.
I have seen similar behavior from addicts that have "fallen off the wagon" or people who have entered into an abusive relationship.
I'm sure that although she hasn't said or indicated it, she is grateful that people are worrying about her.
 
Shocking as it is, I actually agree with Wes on this one. :uhoh: I don't know how you two, Bethany and Angela, that is, have gone so long without involving the police. I can understand if its a breeding loan giving until this summer, but if it's a "babysitting" period, well, Angela has been settled for months now. Time's up....

This is the kind of stuff that makes my skin crawl in this hobby. I am sure it happens in other animal hobbies as well... maybe I am just not as entrenched in small mammals and birds and dogs to see it happening. Seems it happens so often in this hobby... people get involved up to their eyes and then crap out, leaving death and destruction in their wake. Ugh.

I truly hope and pray for a resolution to this that involved my good friends getting their much loved pets back... Tara and I completely understand the fear because our snakes are pets, too, not just livestock.
 
Ive already contacted the police. Since they were "property" given to her willingly, theres nothing they will do. Only option is small claims.
 
ratsncorns said:
Ive already contacted the police. Since they were "property" given to her willingly, theres nothing they will do. Only option is small claims.
Click to expand...

I bet if she were dog sitting for someone and decided to drop off the face of the earth, then the cops would be all over the case...
 
Outcast said:
I bet if she were dog sitting for someone and decided to drop off the face of the earth, then the cops would be all over the case...
Click to expand...

I concur. Someone would have something to say about it if it were a dog.

In any case, threads like this are valid, good and needed to prevent others from suffering the heartache that Bethany and Angela are suffering. If no one talks about this, than other innocent people may end up losing their animals. We are assuming she is not active anywhere in the herp community, but we don't know that for sure.
 
I would stress it on the police that she has your PROPERTY and that she has vanished with YOUR PROPERTY. I know it doesn't work this way but it shouldn't matter if its a snake, or a dog or a dvd player, if she has it and will not answer you and has vanished without telling any one she has vanished with YOUR PROPERTY!!!!

I would be stressing that fact when I spoke to the police. Its your property and you want it back.

I hope those of you who have animals MIA get them back.
 
Allalaskan said:
I would stress it on the police that she has your PROPERTY and that she has vanished with YOUR PROPERTY. I know it doesn't work this way but it shouldn't matter if its a snake, or a dog or a dvd player, if she has it and will not answer you and has vanished without telling any one she has vanished with YOUR PROPERTY!!!!

I would be stressing that fact when I spoke to the police. Its your property and you want it back.

I hope those of you who have animals MIA get them back.
Click to expand...
I agree. The snakes weren't gifted to her at all, they were entrusted to her care temporarily. as they are still the legal property of their original owners there must be some redress through legal means? Surely the police should have some leverge here to help return the 'property' to the rightful owners?
 
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