Motley Tessera vs. Stripe Tessera

[Walter Smith]

The real problem...is Buzz's tessera stripe. A beautiful little snake. It has very obvious lateral stripes, very neat..but not "clean sides". Not like the clean lateral sides of Walter's and Saiyajin. What did these latter two look like as hatchlings?

Eric,
Unfortunatly, I don't have (thought I did) pics. of my guy as a hatchling. I asked Steve if he could provide me one and he did, but it came as a bitmap file and it won't upload here, sooooooooo if you go to Steve's photo gallery on his site, the is a pic. at the bottom of the page.

EDIT: Chris was able to convert the image for me and is pictured a couple posts down.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[HerpsOfNM]

vetus...here's another monkey wrench regarding the lateral patterning...

This snake is from my, currently, lone male tessera (het butter stripe, might be a motley gene present????) crossed to a WC Okeetee corn (she's from roughly 15 miles as the crow flies from the actual hunt club road). I can rule out any other male influence as the last time I bred her prior to this season was in 2001.

hatchling pic....

post-hatch shed pic...

Buzz....check out the head pattern! Very similar to the one you posted too. It and her lateral striping are why I held her back. I also held back a male sibling with similar lateral patterning, plus 1.1 non-tessera siblings to see if anything is going on outside of dad's recessive traits.

 

[HerpsOfNM]

Walter, if you want to forward on the bitmap I should be able to convert it over to jpeg via either mspaint (gross) or photoshop (in Borat voice...very nice!)...just click on Herps of NM in my sig and you'll find my e-mail addy on the site. Downside is that where I'm possibly moving to in the DFW area lacks internet service via Comcast, so I'm going to have to remember to back track some to fix the X that's going to start showing.

 

[Walter Smith]

Walter, if you want to forward on the bitmap I should be able to convert it over to jpeg via either mspaint (gross) or photoshop (in Borat voice...very nice!)...

Ok cool, shoot me an email and I'll send it over: [email protected]

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[HerpsOfNM]

walter's striped tessera as a hatchling...I wondered who got that one. Just as you wondered who got the ghost stripe Steve had hidden. I guess we're even? LMAO

 

[Walter Smith]

walter's striped tessera as a hatchling...I wondered who got that one. Just as you wondered who got the ghost stripe Steve had hidden. I guess we're even? LMAO

LOL..............I hear ya and Thanks for doing that Chris, I appreciate it !!
There ya go Eric, there is my guy as a hatchling.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[vetusvates]

Sighs...my head is splitting from slitting snakes down the middle of the belly (in my head, not irl...lol) and flattening them out. That's how I visualize patterns (and colors). Pattern (and color) erupting upwards from the mid-dorsum and flowing outward both eastward and westward...like new ocean floor from the mid-atlantic ridge.

Well...So... :
1) Walter's and Saiyajin's tessera stripes (smooth sides) look different from Buzz's and Chris's tessera stripes or possible stripes (irregular sides).
2) Okeetee, predictably, screams out at one, whenever it is present...with its vivid blotches and black borders, rearranged into stripes.

CP's Morph Guide says tessera is not recessive to wild type and a pattern modifying gene (checked to get the wording right).
So something tells me that if we subtracted the tessera gene out...we would have different looking stripes and/or motleys (and/or normals) all around. Don't yell, I know I'm stating the obvious.

hmmmm...still thinking...

 

[Buzzard]

post-hatch shed pic...

Buzz....check out the head pattern! Very similar to the one you posted too. It and her lateral striping are why I held her back. I also held back a male sibling with similar lateral patterning, plus 1.1 non-tessera siblings to see if anything is going on outside of dad's recessive traits.

Love that head pattern and it is so much like the girl in my pic WOW.


Walter... After looking at the hatchling pic of yours, I was wondering if yours is not from a vanishing stripe line. Over the last few years, with all our vanishing and sunspot stripes we are working with, I have noticed that when a hatchling has faded stripes(like the hatchling pic), they seem to fade out as the snake matures.

Perhaps instead of looking at the back we need to focus more on the side pattern???

And if Tessera came from a stripe project, then wouldn't the "stripe look"(a snake that looks like a striped Tessera) randomly pop up even when there is no stripe gene involved???

 

[vetusvates]

Love that head pattern and it is so much like the girl in my pic WOW.

Walter... After looking at the hatchling pic of yours, I was wondering if yours is not from a vanishing stripe line. Over the last few years, with all our vanishing and sunspot stripes we are working with, I have noticed that when a hatchling has faded stripes(like the hatchling pic), they seem to fade out as the snake matures.

Perhaps instead of looking at the back we need to focus more on the side pattern???

Excellent, Buzz. Exactly what, in all my clumsiness and poor wording, I was trying to do.

And if Tessera came from a stripe project, then wouldn't the "stripe look"(a snake that looks like a striped Tessera) randomly pop up even when there is no stripe gene involved???

Note, so many tesseras have okeeteeness involved, that bold vivid markings, even on the sides seems unsurprising.

 

[Walter Smith]

Walter... After looking at the hatchling pic of yours, I was wondering if yours is not from a vanishing stripe line. Over the last few years, with all our vanishing and sunspot stripes we are working with, I have noticed that when a hatchling has faded stripes(like the hatchling pic), they seem to fade out as the snake matures.

Perhaps instead of looking at the back we need to focus more on the side pattern???

Well, to be honest Buzz, I'm not sure seeing I aquired this guy from Steve. Now, could the Stripe Steve used to produce this guy be from a Vanishing line, even if the actual Stripe used was not a vanish?....very possible.

This is what I was thinking from the begining, that an actual STRIPE Tessera would ALL have these clean sides, but now if your thoughts are correct, that could toss another wrench into the game :awcrap:

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[HerpsOfNM]

doesn't multicorn (I forget his name) have some "striped" tesseras that are quad-striped, i.e., the standard tessera dorsal stripe and then a clean single lateral stripe on the left and right of the snake?

Could this possibly be as simple as performing a scale count on the patterning, particularly on the lateral patterning?

 

[Walter Smith]

doesn't multicorn (I forget his name) have some "striped" tesseras that are quad-striped, i.e., the standard tessera dorsal stripe and then a clean single lateral stripe on the left and right of the snake?

Not sure Chris ?? :shrugs:

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[fyrefocks]

Walter, I'm only here to add to your confusion.

These 5 babies were from a pairing of a tessera het caramel, motley (proven motley for sure) to an amel stripe het caramel, anery, hypo. They are all either caramel or classic colored tesseras het motley/stripe. You'll notice the vanishing stripes in the second and fourth pics.

 

[multicorn]

doesn't multicorn (I forget his name) have some "striped" tesseras that are quad-striped, i.e., the standard tessera dorsal stripe and then a clean single lateral stripe on the left and right of the snake?

Could this possibly be as simple as performing a scale count on the patterning, particularly on the lateral patterning?

I have quite a few from different lines.... Soooo I need to sit down and work out which are proven stripe lines and which are motley oooh and mixed motley/stripe.. Omg and unknown!!!!!

I was avoiding posting as I needed time to get all my info correct.... I will dig all my photos out tonight (after sleep and work)

A really interesting conversation topic. Which invariably will be based on?????
How I have found it..:
There are a few bloodlines of stripe and motley which I beleive alters the tessera pattern as much as we see in stripe, pin stripe, motley, cube, motley/stripe, vanishing pattern and so on!!
Will there be A definitive outcome?? Mmmmm I hope so for everyones future projects..!!

Plus there appears to be two main types of tessera (non pattern modified) ones with thick dorsal borders and ones with an almost total lack of dorsal border.! I feel this also has an impact once pattern modified as we now start to see 'vanishing pattern style' tessera.. Is that a part of the reason???? Just another idea/finding for the pot :bird:

 

[HerpsOfNM]

The plot thickens..... Dum dum dum! Lol

Nate, babies 2 and 4 are quite neat looking!

On that note.......

 

[Walter Smith]

Walter, I'm only here to add to your confusion.

These 5 babies were from a pairing of a tessera het caramel, motley (proven motley for sure) to an amel stripe het caramel, anery, hypo. They are all either caramel or classic colored tesseras het motley/stripe. You'll notice the vanishing stripes in the second and fourth pics.

Hey Nate, Thanks for posting.

I see what you mean, but IN THEORY ONLY, based on the Motley & Stripe traits being allelec, those should ALL be Motley:

For the sake of not adding all the other traits and using just the highlighted traits of your pair

Male: het Motley

Female: Stripe


Phenotype:
1 / 2 Motley het Stripe
1 / 2 Normal het Stripe

I tell ya peeps, this just keeps getting better and better :eek1::eek1:

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[fyrefocks]

Hey Nate, Thanks for posting.

I see what you mean, but IN THEORY ONLY, based on the Motley & Stripe traits being allelec, those should ALL be Motley:

For the sake of not adding all the other traits and using just the highlighted traits of your pair

Male: het Motley

Female: Stripe


Phenotype:
1 / 2 Motley het Stripe
1 / 2 Normal het Stripe

I tell ya peeps, this just keeps getting better and better :eek1::eek1:

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Walter, those 5 tesseras het motley/stripe were the only tesseras out of 17 eggs that hatched. I also got normals, caramels, and het motley/stripes.

Again, those 5 are all het for both motley and stripe. Which, as you know, the GENOTYPE het motley AND stripe makes the phenotype motley. But what I said is accurate. They are all het motley AND stripe.

 

[vetusvates]

Am I the only one who has noticed that the presence of Okeetee (even RO) in the parents/grandparents...is directly proportional to likelihood of not seeing clean smooth uniform sidewalls on progeny?

And nice snakes, Nate. Is vanishing stripe absolutely positively in their family tree?

On another, similar note. I wonder what sunglows (motley or stripes or blotched pattern) or high end fires say, or other disappearing-pattern corns would look like. Meaning---unlike Okeetee's, snakes that are bred to have as an adult a maximum diminution of visible pattern...hopefully even uniformly solid color snakes.
Ignore the fires, if need be...I know that diffusion + tessera can result in phenotypes of widely varying expression.

Because, the more snakes posted here...the more a theme may begin to appear to someone. Although, Walter, frankly I am beginning to be convinced that the only way to know anything about a tessera stripe or tessera motley is to have the pedigree of a given clutch laid out before me. LOL.


Note : man, look at number 3. How many stripes does that sucker have?

 

[vetusvates]

Hey Nate, Thanks for posting.

I see what you mean, but IN THEORY ONLY, based on the Motley & Stripe traits being allelec, those should ALL be Motley:

For the sake of not adding all the other traits and using just the highlighted traits of your pair

Male: het Motley

Female: Stripe


Phenotype:
1 / 2 Motley het Stripe
1 / 2 Normal het Stripe

I tell ya peeps, this just keeps getting better and better :eek1::eek1:

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Walter, those 5 tesseras het motley/stripe were the only tesseras out of 17 eggs that hatched. I also got normals, caramels, and het motley/stripes.

Again, those 5 are all het for both motley and stripe. Which, as you know, the GENOTYPE het motley AND stripe makes the phenotype motley. But what I said is accurate. They are all het motley AND stripe.

So : all five of Nate's snakes are the largest sample group of like snakes we've seen so far. At a glance, they all look very similar. At closer inspection, they clearly vary individual to individual---all within one clutch.
(Chris, this is why I was reluctant to count scale rows earlier. I think some variation is introduced at some point that makes counting unreliable. So far...
And these from the same clutch seem to me to show that variation, snake to snake, in stripe or between-stripe scalerow-widths.)

 

[Walter Smith]

Walter, those 5 tesseras het motley/stripe were the only tesseras out of 17 eggs that hatched. I also got normals, caramels, and het motley/stripes.

Again, those 5 are all het for both motley and stripe. Which, as you know, the GENOTYPE het motley AND stripe makes the phenotype motley. But what I said is accurate. They are all het motley AND stripe.

Nate,
I'm not saying you are wrong, but (again, in theory) if those 5 Tesseras were only HET Motley & Stripe, they should express a Tesselated latteral pattern....
(as you see in non-stripe & motley Tesseras) :shrugs:

If you breed a corn het Motley X visual (homo) Stripe, there will be visual Motleys (and all the other non motley sibs ) HET Stripe.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!