Motley Tessera vs. Stripe Tessera

[DragonsDenSerpents]

My girl Stella is not motley or stripe, nor do I believe she has any in her lineage (she's Graham Criglow's Halloween Okeetee boy x original tessera female) unless the original tess girl was from a stripe project. She has the head pattern - dash - stripe and fully striped tail. Not sure if that helps at all, but figured she's close to the original project so might be of some use.

 

[fyrefocks]

Nate,
I'm not saying you are wrong, but (again, in theory) if those 5 Tesseras were only HET Motley & Stripe, they should express a Tesselated latteral pattern....
(as you see in non-stripe & motley Tesseras) :shrugs:

If you breed a corn het Motley X visual (homo) Stripe, there will be visual Motleys (and all the other non motley sibs ) HET Stripe.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Oh boy..

A snake can't be homo motley and het stripe. The motley and stripe alleles, as you know, reside on the same locus. And the locus only has room for those 2 alleles. For a snake to be homo motley het stripe, you'd need 3 alleles. It isn't possible.

When you put one of each, a stripe and a motley, allele on that locus, you get a motley snake in phenotype only. Yes, it looks motley. But it's het for both genes. All of those tesseras that I posted will produce motleys and/or stripes depending on the genetics of the other parent. In genotype, those snakes are het motley and stripe.

 

[fyrefocks]

I'm actually surprised I haven't yet seen Tom in here. Last year he hatched some striped tesseras that looked like epic VP stripes and they showed pretty much no resemblance to any of the snakes in this thread.

 

[Walter Smith]

Oh boy..

A snake can't be homo motley and het stripe. The motley and stripe alleles, as you know, reside on the same locus. And the locus only has room for those 2 alleles. For a snake to be homo motley het stripe, you'd need 3 alleles. It isn't possible.

Wow,
actually it can, and it has been proven. I understand these two traits reside at the same locus, but we are talking about two RECESSIVE triats here, not co-dom and the Motley trait IS dominate over Stripe.

Myself, and others have done these breedings ( Motley X Stripe ) in the past and the results were 100% visual Motleys 100% het Stripe.

Your two copies are 1 Motley homo form + 1 Stripe het form

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Walter Smith]

When you put one of each, a stripe and a motley, allele on that locus, you get a motley snake in phenotype only. Yes, it looks motley. But it's het for both genes.

So, what you are saying here is that if you breed a Motley X Stripe you will get all Motleys het for Motley...................and Stripe??? :shrugs:
..........that does not make sense to me.

That's kinda like saying if you breed a Caramel Bloodred X Caramel..........all of the offspring will be visual Caramels 100% het for Caramel & Bloodred.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[vetusvates]

I have quite a few from different lines.... Soooo I need to sit down and work out which are proven stripe lines and which are motley oooh and mixed motley/stripe.. Omg and unknown!!!!!

I was avoiding posting as I needed time to get all my info correct.... I will dig all my photos out tonight (after sleep and work)

A really interesting conversation topic. Which invariably will be based on?????
How I have found it..:
There are a few bloodlines of stripe and motley which I beleive alters the tessera pattern as much as we see in stripe, pin stripe, motley, cube, motley/stripe, vanishing pattern and so on!!
Will there be A definitive outcome?? Mmmmm I hope so for everyones future projects..!!

Plus there appears to be two main types of tessera (non pattern modified) ones with thick dorsal borders and ones with an almost total lack of dorsal border.! I feel this also has an impact once pattern modified as we now start to see 'vanishing pattern style' tessera.. Is that a part of the reason???? Just another idea/finding for the pot :bird:

Precisely. Or some may prefer to say the converse, tessera (new gene) alters traditional pattern (not so new genes).

Rather than two main types, I think many. IMHO, any and all tesseras...reflect blotch color, blotch border color, and ground color. To see this, all you have to do is look at an Okeetee Tessera. Where is the blotch color, where is the black blotch-border color, and where is the groundcolor color?

If the tessera comes from non-blotched stock...the tessera-origin-stripes will, of course, be less pronounced.

 

[HerpsOfNM]

It's early and I may not be thinking completely clearly genetically (that's a lot of ly's)....

Nate and Walter, your discussion above and the tessera aspect favored it has me wondering somewhat if we actually don't understand motley and stripe? <-- this seems worded weird, I think my iPhone autocorrected something but again, it's early lol

Within leopard geckos that jungle and stripe traits behave very similarly. Many were and still are quick to dismiss both as polygenic (and they may very well be) versus simply recessive. I've been working with the mutations since 1998, and in my breeding experience they functioned completely recessive. I never did cross the 2 traits so I can't really speak of that. Many did and got mixed results of the 2 traits where jungle was dominant over stripe. Oddly those that did post their results, assuming they were accurate and truthful, I never once noticed an intermediate form that would lend to the traits acting to the definition of co-dominance.

I've always wondered at times if some of our so called co-dominant traits might actually be more akin to incomplete dominance?

 

[Walter Smith]

It's early and I may not be thinking completely clearly genetically (that's a lot of ly's)....

Nate and Walter, your discussion above and the tessera aspect favored it has me wondering somewhat if we actually don't understand motley and stripe?

Within leopard geckos that jungle and stripe traits behave very similarly. Many were and still are quick to dismiss both as polygenic (and they may very well be) versus simply recessive. I've been working with the mutations since 1998, and in my breeding experience they functioned completely recessive. I never did cross the 2 traits so I can't really speak of that. Many did and got mixed results of the 2 traits where jungle was dominant over stripe. Oddly those that did post their results, assuming they were accurate and truthful, I never once noticed an intermediate form that would lend to the traits acting to the definition of co-dominance.

Chris, this is where Moltey (works as Jungle you are mentioning)

Back in the mid. 90's there was talk and was thought that the Motley & Stripe traits could possibly be located on the same locus, just as Nate has mentioned.

Myself and others did test breedings to see if this was true...........well low and behold it was. My (and others) breedings of Motley X Stripe gave us clutchs of 100% visual (homo) Motleys proving the Motley & Stripe trait resided at the same locus and at the same time proving Motley is dominate over stripe, getting ALL Motleys in the F1 clutch.

When I bred the F1 prodengy together, the visual results would be Motleys, Stripes and a mix match visual of those traits combined (Motley Stripes) This breeding also proved those Motley HET for Stripe by getting Striped offspring.

I'm not understanding how one can say that you cannot have a Motley het Stripe when both traits are recessive..............unless the Motley & Striped traits inheritance status has recently been changed ???

You can even go to the cornsnake calculator, plug in Motley X Stripe and the outcome shows ALL (HOMO) Motley............100% het Stripe,
which is the results we got doing this actual breeding.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[vetusvates]

Nate and Walter, your discussion above and the tessera aspect favored it has me wondering somewhat if we actually don't understand motley and stripe? <-- this seems worded weird, I think my iPhone autocorrected something but again, it's early lol.

On the contrary. The only wrinkle is nomenclature.

Phenotype nomenclature describes phenotype.

Genotype nomenclature describes genotype.

We have simply become over-accustomed to stating both, or part of one + part of the other...when describing a snake.

 

[HerpsOfNM]

On the contrary. The only wrinkle is nomenclature.

Phenotype nomenclature describes phenotype.

Genotype nomenclature describes genotype.

We have simply become over-accustomed to stating both, or part of one + part of the other...when describing a snake.

Exactly!!!!!!!!

This was an aspect of early genetics that peers in my intro biology class had trouble grasping 13 years ago. The prof knew I was interested in genetics via my reptiles. 2 days later I was doing a genetics lecture using leopards geckos, and conveniently enough corn snakes as live models.

Was rather fun....

This was also a problem experienced within my upper division genetics course too. What's going on phenotypic ally doesn't necessarily lend to what's going on genotypically. We make the simple assumption that genetics is that black & white; and sometimes it is.

 

[HerpsOfNM]

Chris, this is where Moltey (works as Jungle you are mentioning)

Back in the mid. 90's there was talk and was thought that the Motley & Stripe traits could possibly be located on the same locus, just as Nate has mentioned.

Myself and others did test breedings to see if this was true...........well low and behold it was. My (and others) breedings of Motley X Stripe gave us clutchs of 100% visual (homo) Motleys proving the Motley & Stripe trait resided at the same locus and at the same time proving Motley is dominate over stripe, getting ALL Motleys in the F1 clutch.

When I bred the F1 prodengy together, the visual results would be Motleys, Stripes and a mix match visual of those traits combined (Motley Stripes) This breeding also proved those Motley HET for Stripe by getting Striped offspring.

I'm not understanding how one can say that you cannot have a Motley het Stripe when both traits are recessive..............unless the Motley & Striped traits inheritance status has recently been changed ???

You can even go to the cornsnake calculator, plug in Motley X Stripe and the outcome shows ALL (HOMO) Motley............100% het Stripe,
which is the results we got doing this actual breeding.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

I'll digest this a little later. Over at the in-laws and need to focus on a new board game we're attempting to play.

 

[Walter Smith]

I'll digest this a little later. Over at the in-laws and need to focus on a new board game we're attempting to play.

Agreed, the wife and I are about to head for our Daughter's house to bring in the new year..........pick back up tomorrow.

Hope all have a very safe and HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!!

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[vetusvates]

Yay! Happy New Year to all !!!

 

[fyrefocks]

I can't add anything else to this. What I've said has been said over and over again and it's right.

They look like motleys, which makes them motleys as far as phenotype goes. But they aren't homo for either trait. They are het for both. And If I breed a motley/stripe to a motley/stripe, I'll get homo stripes, homo motleys, and more snakes that are motley/stripe. But you can't tell the differences between the genotype motleys and the phenotype motleys because they both appear motley.

If you don't understand it then I can't help you.

 

[Buzzard]

Okay let me leave you guys with a thought. What if motley and/or stripe doesn't show up when tessera is in the mix? What if they all just are variations of the tessera gene since the gene popped up in a stripe project?

Happy new year!!!!

Buzz

 

[Ryan Beatty]

Something else to ponder. If you breed a het motley to a het stripe are the resulting motlies het stripe?

 

[fyrefocks]

Something else to ponder. If you breed a het motley to a het stripe are the resulting motlies het stripe?

Every motley baby produced from this pairing would be motley in phenotype only. Genetically speaking all the "motleys" would be het for both motley and stripe.

Seriously, I thought we had this figured out already. I can't believe people still don't understand this.

 

[Susan]

Every motley baby produced from this pairing would be motley in phenotype only. Genetically speaking all the "motleys" would be het for both motley and stripe.

Seriously, I thought we had this figured out already. I can't believe people still don't understand this.

My thoughts exactly. There seems to be some confusion with the use of the term "homozygous" and the difference between the genotype and phenotype when you combine motley and stripe. When you breed a homozygous motley (mm) to a homozygous stripe (ss), ALL the offspring will be, genetically, "het motley het stripe" (ms) since they only possess ONE copy of each, as are corns that are het motley (Mm) and het stripe (Ss).

Motley and stripe are similar to amel and ultra in that they sit at the same locus. However, while the phenotype of amel and ultra are both expressed in an ultramel, the phenotype of a motley/stripe (ms) is only motley as the expression of the motley gene is dominant over the expression of the stripe gene, making it APPEAR that motley is in homozygous form when it actually is not.

The proof of the difference in genotype and phenotype is shown when you pair 2 motley/stripes (ms) together:

mm (visual motley) X ss (visual stripe) =
100% ms (visual motley)

ms (visual motley) X ms (visual motley) =

1/4 mm (visual motley)
1/2 ms (visual motley)
1/4 ss (visual stripe)

There is also confusion with the terms motley/stripe and striped motley. Some think they both refer to a snake that is genetically ms and use it that way, when I think striped motley is simply describing a pin-striped motley (versus a Q-tipped motley, a hurricane motley, etc) and motley/stripe is the genetic ms. That is why some people use het motley het stripe to indicate the actual genetics, but that too can confuse some that don't realize the genes are alleles and indicate a snake with the phenotype expressed and not a normal pattern.

I do think that calling a ms corn "homo motley het stripe" is inaccurate as the snake is NOT homozygous motley and het stripe (mmSs).

 

[fyrefocks]

My thoughts exactly. There seems to be some confusion with the use of the term "homozygous" and the difference between the genotype and phenotype when you combine motley and stripe. When you breed a homozygous motley (mm) to a homozygous stripe (ss), ALL the offspring will be, genetically, "het motley het stripe" (ms) since they only possess ONE copy of each, as are corns that are het motley (Mm) and het stripe (Ss).

Motley and stripe are similar to amel and ultra in that they sit at the same locus. However, while the phenotype of amel and ultra are both expressed in an ultramel, the phenotype of a motley/stripe (ms) is only motley as the expression of the motley gene is dominant over the expression of the stripe gene, making it APPEAR that motley is in homozygous form when it actually is not.

The proof of the difference in genotype and phenotype is shown when you pair 2 motley/stripes (ms) together:

mm (visual motley) X ss (visual stripe) =
100% ms (visual motley)

ms (visual motley) X ms (visual motley) =

1/4 mm (visual motley)
1/2 ms (visual motley)
1/4 ss (visual stripe)

There is also confusion with the terms motley/stripe and striped motley. Some think they both refer to a snake that is genetically ms and use it that way, when I think striped motley is simply describing a pin-striped motley (versus a Q-tipped motley, a hurricane motley, etc) and motley/stripe is the genetic ms. That is why some people use het motley het stripe to indicate the actual genetics, but that too can confuse some that don't realize the genes are alleles and indicate a snake with the phenotype expressed and not a normal pattern.

I do think that calling a ms corn "homo motley het stripe" is inaccurate as the snake is NOT homozygous motley and het stripe (mmSs).

Susan, I know you hate me for my use of the word trundlefart, but I love you so hard right now, both for typing this out and including ultramel as a way to better help people understand the plight of the poor, misunderstood het motley/stripe animals.

 

[Susan]

And Walter, to answer your original question, the addition of tessera probably negates the phenotypic difference between motleys and stripes, with all tessera offspring with these genes (mm, ss and ms) looking the same. At least that's what I've seen so far. Now if someone can show an example of a proven motley tessera with a different phenotype, I think we would all love to see it.