Motley Tessera vs. Stripe Tessera

[Susan]

Susan, I know you hate me for my use of the word trundlefart, but I love you so hard right now, both for typing this out and including ultramel as a way to better help people understand the plight of the poor, misunderstood het motley/stripe animals.

I don't "hate" the use of the word, as I know exactly what it has come to mean with no doubt to the genetics. I just want it known that it's use originated as a joke and was never meant to be serious.

 

[fyrefocks]

I don't "hate" the use of the word, as I know exactly what it has come to mean with no doubt to the genetics. I just want it known that it's use originated as a joke and was never meant to be serious.

I know. And I will sally forth in the use of the name regardless of it's humorous origins. It's about as descriptive and accurate as anything else people use anyway. I'd relent if we could all just agree to het m/s, but alas..

 

[vetusvates]

Okay let me leave you guys with a thought. What if motley and/or stripe doesn't show up when tessera is in the mix? What if they all just are variations of the tessera gene since the gene popped up in a stripe project?

Happy new year!!!!

Buzz

Hmmmm....not outside the realm of possibility. And overlaps with Susan's second post quoted below. But I do not see legions of snakes made identical by the application of the tessera gene.

My thoughts exactly. There seems to be some confusion with the use of the term "homozygous" and the difference between the genotype and phenotype when you combine motley and stripe. When you breed a homozygous motley (mm) to a homozygous stripe (ss), ALL the offspring will be, genetically, "het motley het stripe" (ms) since they only possess ONE copy of each, as are corns that are het motley (Mm) and het stripe (Ss).

Motley and stripe are similar to amel and ultra in that they sit at the same locus. However, while the phenotype of amel and ultra are both expressed in an ultramel, the phenotype of a motley/stripe (ms) is only motley as the expression of the motley gene is dominant over the expression of the stripe gene, making it APPEAR that motley is in homozygous form when it actually is not.

The proof of the difference in genotype and phenotype is shown when you pair 2 motley/stripes (ms) together:

mm (visual motley) X ss (visual stripe) =
100% ms (visual motley)

ms (visual motley) X ms (visual motley) =

1/4 mm (visual motley)
1/2 ms (visual motley)
1/4 ss (visual stripe)

There is also confusion with the terms motley/stripe and striped motley. Some think they both refer to a snake that is genetically ms and use it that way, when I think striped motley is simply describing a pin-striped motley (versus a Q-tipped motley, a hurricane motley, etc) and motley/stripe is the genetic ms. That is why some people use het motley het stripe to indicate the actual genetics, but that too can confuse some that don't realize the genes are alleles and indicate a snake with the phenotype expressed and not a normal pattern.

I do think that calling a ms corn "homo motley het stripe" is inaccurate as the snake is NOT homozygous motley and het stripe (mmSs).

Susan, thank you very much for the always valuable footnote that constitutes a mini-course on the mini-subject of the motley and stripe genes.
It, of course, is excellent information for new members to see all together in one place.
It also is, of course, an excellent review of the literature for those like me who understand it, but are too lazy to proctor the course.
It is also, of course, a great reminder of why the motley gene and the stripe gene (I try to state motley and stripe alphabetically so as not to favor or discriminate the alleles), together or apart, have many ways of expressing themselves.
We all know that all snakes with genotypes mm, ms, and ss express themselves in a number of unique ways, as you stated ("pin-striped motley, versus a Q-tipped motley, a hurricane motley, etc" and then the typical stripes, cubed stripes, vanishing stripes, forever stripes, and other stripe variations, etc.).

And Walter, to answer your original question, the addition of tessera probably negates the phenotypic difference between motleys and stripes, with all tessera offspring with these genes (mm, ss and ms) looking the same. At least that's what I've seen so far. Now if someone can show an example of a proven motley tessera with a different phenotype, I think we would all love to see it.

But again, I humbly state that I do not see legions of snakes made identical by the addition of the tessera gene.
Not when I look very closely and carefully.
But then, for some, herding similars together may be the easy way for some to think about, breed, and sell snakes.
In this thread, we have each used our own unique language to describe the pictures we've seen posted in this thread, and that is the beauty of language. I do not see significant differences in unique and/or individual wordings in this thread...the deeper meanings coalesce and all sing together in a wonderfully harmonious choir.

Allow me to use my own metaphor to describe (in the same way as I have previously, but with different words that occur to me now this morning) what I see.
I see blue and green very similarly (even irl).
There are many blues and many greens in this universe.
Let motley = the color blue (mm). Let stripe = the color green (ss). Let blue-green = essentially blue (ms), as I am colorblind.
Let tessera = white paint.
I round up all the blue and green (and blue-green) cars on planet earth and paint them white.
And we all know that one coat of white paint does cover up, but imperfectly covers up, darker colors and patterns.
What do we have?
At a glance, I see legions of fresh new pretty white cars (tesseras).
Looking more closely, I see an infinite number of variations of white, all similarly white (tessera), but each uniquely and individually white (like the pictures I see in this thread and have elsewhere for the last 3, 4, plus years now).

Now, do we need a utilitarian way to group these many shades of white, herding similars together to think about, breed, and sell snakes?
Pragmatically, yes, individuals and/or the majority of producers and sellers very likely will.
But we spectators on the sidelines can still revel in the almost infinite "variations on a theme" that continue to be produced.

 

[Walter Smith]

I can't add anything else to this. What I've said has been said over and over again and it's right.

They look like motleys, which makes them motleys as far as phenotype goes. But they aren't homo for either trait. They are het for both. And If I breed a motley/stripe to a motley/stripe, I'll get homo stripes, homo motleys, and more snakes that are motley/stripe. But you can't tell the differences between the genotype motleys and the phenotype motleys because they both appear motley.

If you don't understand it then I can't help you.

Nate, as mentioned before (back in one of my posts) I wasn't saying you were wrong, but I was going by my and others findings by doing test breedings back in the 90's with these two traits, but I see a bit more clearly what you were trying to get across to me, now that Susan has put it down as a visual equation.

Okay let me leave you guys with a thought. What if motley and/or stripe doesn't show up when tessera is in the mix? What if they all just are variations of the tessera gene since the gene popped up in a stripe project?

Happy new year!!!!

Buzz

THIS may be very possible and a good insight Buzz !!

My thoughts exactly. There seems to be some confusion with the use of the term "homozygous" and the difference between the genotype and phenotype when you combine motley and stripe. When you breed a homozygous motley (mm) to a homozygous stripe (ss), ALL the offspring will be, genetically, "het motley het stripe" (ms) since they only possess ONE copy of each, as are corns that are het motley (Mm) and het stripe (Ss).

Motley and stripe are similar to amel and ultra in that they sit at the same locus. However, while the phenotype of amel and ultra are both expressed in an ultramel, the phenotype of a motley/stripe (ms) is only motley as the expression of the motley gene is dominant over the expression of the stripe gene, making it APPEAR that motley is in homozygous form when it actually is not.

The proof of the difference in genotype and phenotype is shown when you pair 2 motley/stripes (ms) together:

mm (visual motley) X ss (visual stripe) =
100% ms (visual motley)

ms (visual motley) X ms (visual motley) =

1/4 mm (visual motley)
1/2 ms (visual motley)
1/4 ss (visual stripe)

There is also confusion with the terms motley/stripe and striped motley. Some think they both refer to a snake that is genetically ms and use it that way, when I think striped motley is simply describing a pin-striped motley (versus a Q-tipped motley, a hurricane motley, etc) and motley/stripe is the genetic ms. That is why some people use het motley het stripe to indicate the actual genetics, but that too can confuse some that don't realize the genes are alleles and indicate a snake with the phenotype expressed and not a normal pattern.

I do think that calling a ms corn "homo motley het stripe" is inaccurate as the snake is NOT homozygous motley and het stripe (mmSs).

Thank You Susan for your post !!
This defiantly makes a bit more sense to me now that I see it written out.

I also found this on Ian's Viv cornsnake calculator, that helped a little:

"The Motley and Stripe Genes




The Motley and Stripe mutant genes are alleles and have the same locus. Every corn snake has one of the following six possible gene pairs at this locus:

1. two Normal genes (normal)
2. two Motley genes (motley)
3. two Stripe genes (stripe)
4. a Normal gene and a Motley gene (het motley)
5. a Normal gene and a Stripe gene (het stripe)
6. a Motley gene and a Stripe gene

When a snake has the Motley gene paired with the Stripe gene, the pattern is not the same as the normal pattern. In this case the snake shows a variable phenotype. Some look like snakes with two motley genes, and some show small or large amounts of influence from the Stripe gene. However, such snakes never look like a snake with two Stripe genes. Because of this it is assumed that Motley is dominant to Stripe with variable expressivity.

Typically snakes with both Motley and Stripe genes are called "Motley het Stripe" which is not actually the correct notation even though Motley is the observed phenotype. Really they should be described as "het Motley/Stripe"."

Nate, I now see (with the help of Susan's post) this is pretty much what you were trying to get across...........Thanks.

Hey, ya never to old to learn something especially when it is tought in a way for you to understand.:shrugs:..:bird:
This also seems to open up a whole new can of worms when the Tessera trait is present, such as Buzz's thoughts.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Susan]

Hmmmm....not outside the realm of possibility. And overlaps with Susan's second post quoted below. But I do not see legions of snakes made identical by the application of the tessera gene.



Susan, thank you very much for the always valuable footnote that constitutes a mini-course on the mini-subject of the motley and stripe genes.
It, of course, is excellent information for new members to see all together in one place.
It also is, of course, an excellent review of the literature for those like me who understand it, but are too lazy to proctor the course.
It is also, of course, a great reminder of why the motley gene and the stripe gene (I try to state motley and stripe alphabetically so as not to favor or discriminate the alleles), together or apart, have many ways of expressing themselves.
We all know that all snakes with genotypes mm, ms, and ss express themselves in a number of unique ways, as you stated ("pin-striped motley, versus a Q-tipped motley, a hurricane motley, etc" and then the typical stripes, cubed stripes, vanishing stripes, forever stripes, and other stripe variations, etc.).



But again, I humbly state that I do not see legions of snakes made identical by the addition of the tessera gene.
Not when I look very closely and carefully.
But then, for some, herding similars together may be the easy way for some to think about, breed, and sell snakes.
In this thread, we have each used our own unique language to describe the pictures we've seen posted in this thread, and that is the beauty of language. I do not see significant differences in unique and/or individual wordings in this thread...the deeper meanings coalesce and all sing together in a wonderfully harmonious choir.

Allow me to use my own metaphor to describe (in the same way as I have previously, but with different words that occur to me now this morning) what I see.
I see blue and green very similarly (even irl).
There are many blues and many greens in this universe.
Let motley = the color blue (mm). Let stripe = the color green (ss). Let blue-green = essentially blue (ms), as I am colorblind.
Let tessera = white paint.
I round up all the blue and green (and blue-green) cars on planet earth and paint them white.
And we all know that one coat of white paint does cover up, but imperfectly covers up, darker colors and patterns.
What do we have?
At a glance, I see legions of fresh new pretty white cars (tesseras).
Looking more closely, I see an infinite number of variations of white, all similarly white (tessera), but each uniquely and individually white (like the pictures I see in this thread and have elsewhere for the last 3, 4, plus years now).

Now, do we need a utilitarian way to group these many shades of white, herding similars together to think about, breed, and sell snakes?
Pragmatically, yes, individuals and/or the majority of producers and sellers very likely will.
But we spectators on the sidelines can still revel in the almost infinite "variations on a theme" that continue to be produced.

I totally agree! I was simply throwing out a hypothesis to explain why Walter's motley tesseras looked like striped tesseras. My experience with tessera is virtually zero, just the photos I've seen here and there, and to my eye, I'm not seeing any definitive difference between the tessera stripes, tessera motleys and tessera motley/stripes. I do see the difference when motley &/or stripe is "homozygous" and being expressed. I've also seen a great deal of variation is tesseras without motley &/or stripe.

The multitude of subtle variation seen in all morphs/morph combos is one of my favorite things about corn snakes and all the various shades of white over the blue-green may simply be natural variation. But we do know that some genes are masked by other genes and tessera masking the phenotypic difference between motley and stripe is a definite possibility.

 

[Walter Smith]

I totally agree! I was simply throwing out a hypothesis to explain why Walter's motley tesseras looked like striped tesseras. My experience with tessera is virtually zero, just the photos I've seen here and there, and to my eye, I'm not seeing any definitive difference between the tessera stripes, tessera motleys and tessera motley/stripes. I do see the difference when motley &/or stripe is "homozygous" and being expressed. I've also seen a great deal of variation is tesseras without motley &/or stripe.

The multitude of subtle variation seen in all morphs/morph combos is one of my favorite things about corn snakes and all the various shades of white over the blue-green may simply be natural variation. But we do know that some genes are masked by other genes and tessera masking the phenotypic difference between motley and stripe is a definite possibility.

So, this may very well be the answer to my original question in my starting post of this thread in that there is probably more miss-labeling than not and there may be no difinitive way of visually determining between a Motley Tessera & Stripe Tessera..............other than 100% knowing for sure that one trait is not invloved in the line ??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[multicorn]

I totally agree! I was simply throwing out a hypothesis to explain why Walter's motley tesseras looked like striped tesseras. My experience with tessera is virtually zero, just the photos I've seen here and there, and to my eye, I'm not seeing any definitive difference between the tessera stripes, tessera motleys and tessera motley/stripes. I do see the difference when motley &/or stripe is "homozygous" and being expressed. I've also seen a great deal of variation is tesseras without motley &/or stripe.

The multitude of subtle variation seen in all morphs/morph combos is one of my favorite things about corn snakes and all the various shades of white over the blue-green may simply be natural variation. But we do know that some genes are masked by other genes and tessera masking the phenotypic difference between motley and stripe is a definite possibility.

That's effectively what I was saying due to the multitude of different 'lines' we breed there are so many different looks in our mutations.!
Also for me many of the subtle differences displayed in tessera motley, tessera stripe can be attributed to hets they may carry. ie faint stripes. Dorsal patternation.

Also I line breed many lines to attain a certain 'look' this alters any subtlety in a morph.

 

[gelshark]

So, this may very well be the answer to my original question in my starting post of this thread in that there is probably more miss-labeling than not and there may be no difinitive way of visually determining between a Motley Tessera & Stripe Tessera..............other than 100% knowing for sure that one trait is not invloved in the line ??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

I hope you are not accusing me of mislabeling. I have always told people the genetics behind the "trade name"

trade names are often representing of a look and not a genotype and when I was told that "we" were using striped tessera for the look of what I was selling I knew there would be some confusion so I added the genotype in the ads as well. if I were allowed to create my own trade names as others are I would have chosen something else.

 

[Walter Smith]

I hope you are not accusing me of mislabeling. I have always told people the genetics behind the "trade name"

Dude, WHAT ???
Where in ALL of these pages do you see that I'm accusing anyone inparticular of mislabeling??

I simply mention that I'm sure due to us not being able to visual identify the difference between the two that there is probably alot of mislabeling.

You always tell people the genetics behind your animals, well kudos for you. Apparently you don't have anything to worry about.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[gelshark]

I just didnt want to be lumped into the group of mislablers, I was probabky over reacting, my apologies walter

 

[Walter Smith]

I just didnt want to be lumped into the group of mislablers, I was probabky over reacting, my apologies walter

No, I'm in no way singling out anyone of mislabeling, but I'm willing to bet it's happened.......and not intentionally by any means.

I accept your apology, Thank You.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Susan]

So, this may very well be the answer to my original question in my starting post of this thread in that there is probably more miss-labeling than not and there may be no difinitive way of visually determining between a Motley Tessera & Stripe Tessera..............other than 100% knowing for sure that one trait is not invloved in the line ??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Correct! Unless you know for sure, you may be dealing with Forrest's box of chocolate. Isn't it fun that the more we know, the more questions we have! Gotta love it!

 

[Walter Smith]

Correct! Unless you know for sure, you may be dealing with Forrest's box of chocolate. Isn't it fun that the more we know, the more questions we have! Gotta love it!

LOL.........I hear ya Susan.
Hey, thanks so much for your post, it really helped me understand better what Nate was trying to get across to me. Without seeing this:

mm (visual motley) X ss (visual stripe) =
100% ms (visual motley)

ms (visual motley) X ms (visual motley) =

1/4 mm (visual motley)
1/2 ms (visual motley)
1/4 ss (visual stripe)

I would probably still be confused and the outcome here (in red) is somewhat right in line with what I was visually getting in my test results.
However, the 1/2 (ms) seemed to be more of odd patterned animals (almost displaying both patterns at once) over the classic Motley pattern.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[fyrefocks]

LOL.........I hear ya Susan.
Hey, thanks so much for your post, it really helped me understand better what Nate was trying to get across to me. Without seeing this:

mm (visual motley) X ss (visual stripe) =
100% ms (visual motley)

ms (visual motley) X ms (visual motley) =

1/4 mm (visual motley)
1/2 ms (visual motley)
1/4 ss (visual stripe)

I would probably still be confused and the outcome here (in red) is somewhat right in line with what I was visually getting in my test results.
However, the 1/2 (ms) seemed to be more of odd patterned animals (almost displaying both patterns at once) over the classic Motley pattern.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Having all that sorted out, those 5 babies that I posted are M/S, but I guess we could say visually motley.

I've seen two people that were selling striped tesseras that actually looked like striped corn snakes, just better. Neither of them have posted in this thread.

 

[Walter Smith]

I've seen two people that were selling striped tesseras that actually looked like striped corn snakes, just better.

Just curious Nate, what were your thoughts on them, possible miss identified ??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[fyrefocks]

Just curious Nate, what were your thoughts on them, possible miss identified ??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

At first, yeah. And I'm still skeptical. But both breeders claim that the tessera parent is a stripe or a het, and I can't disprove it so I won't be calling anyone a liar. At least one of them is a respectable person who I've done business with, so no sullying here.

I need to find a tessera with no motley or stripe and I'll do the work myself. I'm sure someone will beat me to it, or already has, but I'm not convinced yet.

 

[Walter Smith]

At first, yeah. And I'm still skeptical. But both breeders claim that the tessera parent is a stripe or a het, and I can't disprove it so I won't be calling anyone a liar. At least one of them is a respectable person who I've done business with, so no sullying here.

I need to find a tessera with no motley or stripe and I'll do the work myself. I'm sure someone will beat me to it, or already has, but I'm not convinced yet.

I gottcha.
I seem to recall (somewhere??) there was a discussion about Stripe Tesseras actually looking like regular stripes. There was also something mentioned that to tell the difference between a Stripe & Tessera Stripe is that on a Tessera Stripe, the striping will go all the way down to the tip of the tail, no breaks, where a regular Stripe corn, the stripe usually always stops at the vent area.

I know I believe I mentioned this early in this thread (where Buzz is not actually convinced of this), but thought I would bring it up again.......what is your thoughts on this??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[fyrefocks]

I gottcha.
I seem to recall (somewhere??) there was a discussion about Stripe Tesseras actually looking like regular stripes. There was also something mentioned that to tell the difference between a Stripe & Tessera Stripe is that on a Tessera Stripe, the striping will go all the way down to the tip of the tail, no breaks, where a regular Stripe corn, the stripe usually always stops at the vent area.

I know I believe I mentioned this early in this thread (where Buzz is not actually convinced of this), but thought I would bring it up again.......what is your thoughts on this??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

The one that stands out to me, that could be a stripe (ss) and a tessera, was produced by Tom Thompson. Where the neck stripe starts on this animal, it's about as wide as the usual stripe in the tessera (which is about as wide as a motley's dorsal striping), but then it widens out to as wide as you'd see on a stripe, and then 2/3 down the body it vanishes. It's beautiful. I wish Tom would chime in.

 

[Walter Smith]

The one that stands out to me, that could be a stripe (ss) and a tessera, was produced by Tom Thompson. Where the neck stripe starts on this animal, it's about as wide as the usual stripe in the tessera (which is about as wide as a motley's dorsal striping), but then it widens out to as wide as you'd see on a stripe, and then 2/3 down the body it vanishes. It's beautiful. I wish Tom would chime in.

Is there somewhere it could be seen, maybe link the pic. here in the thread?? I'm curious to see it.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[fyrefocks]

http://www.iherp.com/Public/Animals/ViewAnimal.aspx?AnimalID=131225