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!!!! My Unexpected EGGS !!!!
- Thread starter brtrude
- Start date
brtrude
New member
To be honest, I'm not surprised at all that they didn't mention it. There is a possibility they dont know about it or how to do it. Then again, what cost more, staying and doing what they are doing (and surgery) or aspirating the egg? Bad thing is, if the eggs go too long it becomes hard to aspirate them because they begin to solidify. So no more liquid to drain out. I would say do what Kathy said and lube the area and try to use a probe again. Maybe you can incorporate the assistance of a friend to make it easier for you to hold her. Good luck with her and I hope she doesn't have to have surgery.
ye i think i will try that if she doesnt naturally lay the eggs when she comes home.
I seriously doubt that i can afford to pay for her to have surgery. I guess this whole incident shows the problems with buying adults from pet shops doesnt it. I wont be making any more mistakes like that in the future.
Il give you guys an update later on when i get her home!
:cheers:
Caryl
BrightHope
:awcrap: I was hoping to read that Dizzles had passed the eggs during the night.
It seems like aspiration is the best choice if she didn't pass them already. Surgery should be the absolute last resort, IMHO. Poor Dizzles, and poor you also!
I have to say, Brett, that I shake my head and marvel and you. I wish every animal had a keeper as caring as you've shown yourself to be throughout this ordeal. You're an inspiring person.
Hopefully the next time I check this thread, Dizzles will be done with eggs until you breed her intentionally in the far distant future!
It seems like aspiration is the best choice if she didn't pass them already. Surgery should be the absolute last resort, IMHO. Poor Dizzles, and poor you also!
I have to say, Brett, that I shake my head and marvel and you. I wish every animal had a keeper as caring as you've shown yourself to be throughout this ordeal. You're an inspiring person.
Hopefully the next time I check this thread, Dizzles will be done with eggs until you breed her intentionally in the far distant future!
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
I am not surprised the oxytocin didn't work. As I said, I have never heard it working in snakes, and herp vets have told me that they don't use it for snakes. That seems like a lack of research on the part of your vet. However, since I am not a vet myself, I am giving him / her the benefit of the doubt, assuming that it has probably worked with snakes at one time or another.
I am going to post an email that Don Soderberg sent me about how he uses calcium to sometimes solve the problem (in reference to a particular person who asked about the subject). He gave me permission ( a long time ago) to pass the info on to other people, with the disclaimer that is he also not a vet, but it works for him. I have not used this technique myself, but maybe your vet could try it before surgery. Good luck!
Email from Don S. (5/20/07):
...Keep in mind that letting lubricant contact the egg will kill it. No matter how little you try to put on it, it will suffocate the embryo in the egg. If you're okay with that, go ahead. Actually, if you're pushing the egg slightly with your thumb while you're maneuvering the probe around the egg (be careful not to perforate the oviduct that is sheathing the egg), it will likely come out very quickly. Be careful. They can actually shoot out. Once you see the egg crowned to the half way point, greatly reduce the pressure you're applying with your thumb.
Calcium sandoz contains glubionate so while it may not help, it won't hurt to use it. A vet told me that calcium gluconate increases posterior muscle action. I have read that calcium glubionate has a similar affect. I know nothing about it having an egg softening stimulus and I don't see how any mineral could have an immediate effect on the composition of the eggs. I have read that it also helps control muscle spasms and contractions. In mammals, it is usually recommended in conjunction with one of the acid peptides like oxytocin. I have used oxytocin and calcium gluconate together, but with only 10-15% efficacy. I don't recommend using oxytocin, but my efficacy rate for using only the calcium glubionate is above 50%. I give the snake an intramuscular injection of 40 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. Some vet guides prescribe 10-50 mg/kg. I've had satisfactory success with 40 mg/kg. I administer it IM (intramuscular) to the dorso-lateral muscle group in the middle body area. NOTE: It seems to me that the prescribed dose may not be allowing for the extra body weight of the eggs. Therefore, I have always been nervous about using too much. I have never used the maximum recommended dose of 50 mg/kg, but have never had any complications with 40 mg/kg (with the possible exception of the spinal damage).
If you don't see results in four to six hours, I presume failure and move on to plan B.
Precautions/disclaimers:
I am NOT a vet. I am not giving you advice nor am I suggesting you do any of this. I merely conveyed my experiences with these medications.
If the obstacle that is precluding oviposition is not associated with muscles and/or the calcium does not result in sufficient muscle performance to move the egg, the snake could experience severe spinal trauma. I have one snake here that pushed so hard to lay the eggs that she damaged many of her vertebrae. It was l like a train wreck. The connective tissues around the vertebra were not strong enough to withstand the excessive pushing of the muscles and they were damaged. I've seen this many times, but this particular snake now that has a severe spinal deformity as a result of me administering calcium gluconate. It's possible it would have suffered the damage without the calcium injection, but I'm forced to consider my role in the damage.
Sorry I can't help you more. If you don't care about the egg, I believe that the manipulation that Kathy suggested is your best route. You're running out of time. Not to save the egg, but your snake is preparing to shed again and your window of opportunity to manipulate is shrinking. Honestly, I firmly believe that if you do nothing, the snake will pass the egg as soon as it sheds. If this were my snake, I would have fed it a medium adult mouse the day after she laid the other eggs. Then, when she sheds, her renewed strength from rest and the extra nutrition, along with digestive movement, will help move the egg out. I give you a 60-75% chance that the egg will pass naturally as soon as she sheds. If it doesn't, you can try Kathy's suggestion at that time. No matter what you do, I find that eggs that were retained for 48-72 hours after the first ones laid, die of suffocation in the oviduct. Therefore, if that amount of time has elapsed, it's probably a dead embryo anyway.
Good luck and write if you have more questions.
To Don, from me (5/20/07):
If you don’t mind, I will keep your email handy, and send part of it (as a quote by you) to people who ask about methods of removing eggs. Or I could put part of the quote (along with your disclaimer about not being a vet – I often use one like that too) as part of my FAQ on egg binding. If so, I can send you a copy when I eventually finish it to make sure that it represents you accurately.
To me, from Don (5/20/07):
No problem. I stick to all those as being factual and rely on those methods and meds annually in our ongoing battle against dystocia. Use that in any way you wish. My book goes into much more detail.
Hope this may help. You can always check with Don for more info or update, since this email is 2 years old.
I am going to post an email that Don Soderberg sent me about how he uses calcium to sometimes solve the problem (in reference to a particular person who asked about the subject). He gave me permission ( a long time ago) to pass the info on to other people, with the disclaimer that is he also not a vet, but it works for him. I have not used this technique myself, but maybe your vet could try it before surgery. Good luck!
Email from Don S. (5/20/07):
...Keep in mind that letting lubricant contact the egg will kill it. No matter how little you try to put on it, it will suffocate the embryo in the egg. If you're okay with that, go ahead. Actually, if you're pushing the egg slightly with your thumb while you're maneuvering the probe around the egg (be careful not to perforate the oviduct that is sheathing the egg), it will likely come out very quickly. Be careful. They can actually shoot out. Once you see the egg crowned to the half way point, greatly reduce the pressure you're applying with your thumb.
Calcium sandoz contains glubionate so while it may not help, it won't hurt to use it. A vet told me that calcium gluconate increases posterior muscle action. I have read that calcium glubionate has a similar affect. I know nothing about it having an egg softening stimulus and I don't see how any mineral could have an immediate effect on the composition of the eggs. I have read that it also helps control muscle spasms and contractions. In mammals, it is usually recommended in conjunction with one of the acid peptides like oxytocin. I have used oxytocin and calcium gluconate together, but with only 10-15% efficacy. I don't recommend using oxytocin, but my efficacy rate for using only the calcium glubionate is above 50%. I give the snake an intramuscular injection of 40 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. Some vet guides prescribe 10-50 mg/kg. I've had satisfactory success with 40 mg/kg. I administer it IM (intramuscular) to the dorso-lateral muscle group in the middle body area. NOTE: It seems to me that the prescribed dose may not be allowing for the extra body weight of the eggs. Therefore, I have always been nervous about using too much. I have never used the maximum recommended dose of 50 mg/kg, but have never had any complications with 40 mg/kg (with the possible exception of the spinal damage).
If you don't see results in four to six hours, I presume failure and move on to plan B.
Precautions/disclaimers:
I am NOT a vet. I am not giving you advice nor am I suggesting you do any of this. I merely conveyed my experiences with these medications.
If the obstacle that is precluding oviposition is not associated with muscles and/or the calcium does not result in sufficient muscle performance to move the egg, the snake could experience severe spinal trauma. I have one snake here that pushed so hard to lay the eggs that she damaged many of her vertebrae. It was l like a train wreck. The connective tissues around the vertebra were not strong enough to withstand the excessive pushing of the muscles and they were damaged. I've seen this many times, but this particular snake now that has a severe spinal deformity as a result of me administering calcium gluconate. It's possible it would have suffered the damage without the calcium injection, but I'm forced to consider my role in the damage.
Sorry I can't help you more. If you don't care about the egg, I believe that the manipulation that Kathy suggested is your best route. You're running out of time. Not to save the egg, but your snake is preparing to shed again and your window of opportunity to manipulate is shrinking. Honestly, I firmly believe that if you do nothing, the snake will pass the egg as soon as it sheds. If this were my snake, I would have fed it a medium adult mouse the day after she laid the other eggs. Then, when she sheds, her renewed strength from rest and the extra nutrition, along with digestive movement, will help move the egg out. I give you a 60-75% chance that the egg will pass naturally as soon as she sheds. If it doesn't, you can try Kathy's suggestion at that time. No matter what you do, I find that eggs that were retained for 48-72 hours after the first ones laid, die of suffocation in the oviduct. Therefore, if that amount of time has elapsed, it's probably a dead embryo anyway.
Good luck and write if you have more questions.
To Don, from me (5/20/07):
If you don’t mind, I will keep your email handy, and send part of it (as a quote by you) to people who ask about methods of removing eggs. Or I could put part of the quote (along with your disclaimer about not being a vet – I often use one like that too) as part of my FAQ on egg binding. If so, I can send you a copy when I eventually finish it to make sure that it represents you accurately.
To me, from Don (5/20/07):
No problem. I stick to all those as being factual and rely on those methods and meds annually in our ongoing battle against dystocia. Use that in any way you wish. My book goes into much more detail.
Hope this may help. You can always check with Don for more info or update, since this email is 2 years old.
ForkedTung
Serpent Mound Monk
Anokas, He got the snake from a store, so he does not know it's history, He only has the female and she came to him pregnant and is probably a virgin and was probably not brumated.
Got my fingers crossed Brett.
Tim66/corns
I have no Accent
I agree completely with Kyle.
Brett had the misfortune of getting this female having no idea that she was gravid for many months after he purchased her without being with a male.
He is copping with it amazingly well for what Dizzles & he have been through.
You have my support as well as many others Brett! Where going through this with you I feel. :cheers:
ForkedTung
Serpent Mound Monk
Brett,I went back and was looking at the pic here:http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79956&page=2 post 14 when you didn't know she was pregnant. For anyone that wonders if they're snake is carrying eggs or not it's pretty obvious in this picture because her skin is stretched so tight that it's clear to see all the way around each scale on the enlarged portions of her body.
The strange thing is ( and this may be just because of the angle of the picture) it appears that she is carrying the bulk of her eggs towards the mid to front portion of her body rather than the last third where they usually show the most? hmmmmm....I wonder if that may have to do with the binding and prolonged lay period?
The strange thing is ( and this may be just because of the angle of the picture) it appears that she is carrying the bulk of her eggs towards the mid to front portion of her body rather than the last third where they usually show the most? hmmmmm....I wonder if that may have to do with the binding and prolonged lay period?
shaberry
New member
I have to say, Brett, that I shake my head and marvel and you. I wish every animal had a keeper as caring as you've shown yourself to be throughout this ordeal. You're an inspiring person.
I totally agree with Caryl. Every animal should have an owner as caring and attentive as Brett.
Hopefully your situation gets sorted out soon, and good luck to you and Dizzles. If you decide to manually remove the eggs yourself like last time, hopefully the second try will prove successful. Also, thanks for keeping us updated.
brtrude
New member
thank you all so much for the continuing support! I really can't stress how much it means to me and has kept my spirits up. It means a lot, more than you know.
And as for the brumation question earlier, she was put through brumation yes. And i have owned her now for about 10 months and in that time she was never put with a male. After coming out of brumation i followed all the correct routine in trying to mate her with my male (with no success). And her post brumation shed which was very late, was actually her pre-lay shed. And then she just unloaded all the slugs.
Kathy, thank you for posting such a helpful peice of information for me. You are absolute top class! It feels great to know that i have the likes of you helping me and dizzles get through this.
As for now once i got her home earlier, i gave her a meal which she was happy to have and now she is just chilling out.
It kind of gives me hope that i was almost able to massage the eggs out myself the other day so on sunday once she regains some stregth i will try that again. I have to ring the vets back on monday if nothings happens until then.
And as for the brumation question earlier, she was put through brumation yes. And i have owned her now for about 10 months and in that time she was never put with a male. After coming out of brumation i followed all the correct routine in trying to mate her with my male (with no success). And her post brumation shed which was very late, was actually her pre-lay shed. And then she just unloaded all the slugs.
Kathy, thank you for posting such a helpful peice of information for me. You are absolute top class! It feels great to know that i have the likes of you helping me and dizzles get through this.
As for now once i got her home earlier, i gave her a meal which she was happy to have and now she is just chilling out.
It kind of gives me hope that i was almost able to massage the eggs out myself the other day so on sunday once she regains some stregth i will try that again. I have to ring the vets back on monday if nothings happens until then.
MegF.
That's for sale???
It's great to hear she's at least eating for you. That's always a positive sign. Hope to hear more good news soon. If she doesn't pass them, I'd certainly try aspirating them before cutting her open. Far less invasive and there's no recovery time if she passes them on her own. Please keep us up to date on how she's doing.
ForkedTung
Serpent Mound Monk
yep can't ask for a better sign of health than eating...
Tim66/corns
I have no Accent
:-offtopic In that case Kyle I am extremely healthy!
Glad she is still eating for you Brett!
brtrude
New member
:-offtopic In that case Kyle I am extremely healthy!
Glad she is still eating for you Brett!
haha, ye things would be a lot worse right now if she wasn't eating!
Tim66/corns
I have no Accent
Hey Brett,
How's Dizzles these days? Did she manage to pass the last of those eggs? And you, how you doing to? Haven't checked in for a few days so I wanted to stop by and check on you too.
Hey those 3 remaining eggs have only about 3 weeks or so left if I did my math right and they are at good temps. That must be starting to get you excited a little huh.
Well of to work have a good day!
How's Dizzles these days? Did she manage to pass the last of those eggs? And you, how you doing to? Haven't checked in for a few days so I wanted to stop by and check on you too.
Hey those 3 remaining eggs have only about 3 weeks or so left if I did my math right and they are at good temps. That must be starting to get you excited a little huh.
Well of to work have a good day!
brtrude
New member
hey guys,
sorry i haven't been posting many updates lately, as some of you know we have had a loss in the family so all things snake related have taken a back seat.
As for Dizzles though, its going from bad to worse. She has refused the last couple of mice that i have offered and she is starting to look a bit thin.
Shes still egg bound.
I just dont know what to do with this girl right now,
i dont know what the vets would be able to do for her, i think that she may be too weak for an operation and i have been told that it is very risky even with a healthy snake.
it isn't really as urgent to me right now as you could emagine but still,
its not looking great for my Dizzles.
sorry i haven't been posting many updates lately, as some of you know we have had a loss in the family so all things snake related have taken a back seat.
As for Dizzles though, its going from bad to worse. She has refused the last couple of mice that i have offered and she is starting to look a bit thin.
Shes still egg bound.
I just dont know what to do with this girl right now,
i dont know what the vets would be able to do for her, i think that she may be too weak for an operation and i have been told that it is very risky even with a healthy snake.
it isn't really as urgent to me right now as you could emagine but still,
its not looking great for my Dizzles.
