Serpwidgets
New member
I'd say Ultra Amber, too. It's short, sweet, and shows the connection to Ambers.
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Naming of the Ultra Hypo "Amber" Corn
- Thread starter Rich Z
- Start date
SODERBERGD
Active member
color Vs other. .
Like Mike and others imply, what are you going to do if the "lava" version of this looks the same? Same color, but non allelic to this hypo gene.
There is nothing we confuse with a lavenders. Except for some yellow creamsicles, nothing we confuse with butters. And so on. If another form of hypo creates a combination morph that is exactly the color of this snake, you're going to be adding another adjective to the name of that snake. It's gonna get busy out there. If the "lava" gene turns out to be non allelic to other hypos, we'll likely use that as an adjective for the associative morph. If we say these are "saffron" and the others are "banana" but they look exactly the same color of yellow, we're going to have confusion. (DUH, we need to change the name from 'corn' to 'confusion'. There goes that fusion thing again.)Especially in the cases where someone has combined the two compound traits. Which is what? Of course the latter is going to be a problem no matter what they're called, but I think it will make things less complicated if this snake is not named for its color. What will hypo A, B, C and other hypos down the road do to the color of caramel?
This is not unlike the problem ahead of us with ghosts. We now have ghosts, charcoal ghosts, (probably coral) ghosts. I've always called the charcoal ghosts 'hypo charcoals' thinking someone would think it had traditional ghosts ingredients. Not marketable and probably dumb for me to worry about that, but now that we're facing several other combinations of anery or charcoal AND one or more of the hypos, it's gonna get ugly out there. I think we should nip this in the bud by thinking ahead. Not coming here later to discuss changes because there are now five ambers that all have the "saffron" color, but are not from the same hypo.. I never understood what was wrong with naming them what they are. In this case 'ultra ambers'. It's short, descriptive and accurate. Name them 'saffron' and there will be many others that look exactly the same out there that will need other "yellow" names. Of course, Crayola probably has 25 different yellows out there. What a nightmare. Especially in light of everyone's computers showing them a different shade of color. My advice is to get away from this color thing. Too many different monitors/computers and given the variable nature of caramel anyway, who knows how many other variations of this color?
Like Mike and others imply, what are you going to do if the "lava" version of this looks the same? Same color, but non allelic to this hypo gene.
There is nothing we confuse with a lavenders. Except for some yellow creamsicles, nothing we confuse with butters. And so on. If another form of hypo creates a combination morph that is exactly the color of this snake, you're going to be adding another adjective to the name of that snake. It's gonna get busy out there. If the "lava" gene turns out to be non allelic to other hypos, we'll likely use that as an adjective for the associative morph. If we say these are "saffron" and the others are "banana" but they look exactly the same color of yellow, we're going to have confusion. (DUH, we need to change the name from 'corn' to 'confusion'. There goes that fusion thing again.)Especially in the cases where someone has combined the two compound traits. Which is what? Of course the latter is going to be a problem no matter what they're called, but I think it will make things less complicated if this snake is not named for its color. What will hypo A, B, C and other hypos down the road do to the color of caramel?
This is not unlike the problem ahead of us with ghosts. We now have ghosts, charcoal ghosts, (probably coral) ghosts. I've always called the charcoal ghosts 'hypo charcoals' thinking someone would think it had traditional ghosts ingredients. Not marketable and probably dumb for me to worry about that, but now that we're facing several other combinations of anery or charcoal AND one or more of the hypos, it's gonna get ugly out there. I think we should nip this in the bud by thinking ahead. Not coming here later to discuss changes because there are now five ambers that all have the "saffron" color, but are not from the same hypo.. I never understood what was wrong with naming them what they are. In this case 'ultra ambers'. It's short, descriptive and accurate. Name them 'saffron' and there will be many others that look exactly the same out there that will need other "yellow" names. Of course, Crayola probably has 25 different yellows out there. What a nightmare. Especially in light of everyone's computers showing them a different shade of color. My advice is to get away from this color thing. Too many different monitors/computers and given the variable nature of caramel anyway, who knows how many other variations of this color?
Walter Smith
CRAZY BOUT' CORNS !!
Ya know.........
....... After hearing it in a couple posts, going back to the pic. Rich has provided and re-thinking this, I agree.
I think we should hold off on going through the name game until this line is PROVEN not to be the same as the "Ambers" that have been around for a while.
How do we know that this is not just a refinement in coloration through selective breeding in the "Ambers" we all know today.
Rich said, this is horse of a different color and maybe that's all this is, an "Amber" that displays more yellow coloration than others?? :shrugs:
IF it is proven to be a different line, then yes, I think it should have it's own name to indentify it from the more common 'Ambers", or should I say the "Ambers" produced using the Hypo "A" gene.
As far as the name, Rich said that when he hears the name "Saffron" nothing comes to mind that would make him think of what this animals would look like.
Well, isn't that the point of us trying to figure out a discriptive name for it, to coin it and KNOW what this animals looks like when the name is heard?
I mean, we could call this thing a "Door Knob" Corn and everyone would know what particular line we were talking about, because that specific name is coined to that specific genetic makeup and that specific looking morph.
"Saffron", by definition, explains the INTENSE yellow coloration being seen in this line. That's the only reason why I SUGGESTED it. There are a few people that like it and there are some that don't. That's to be expected.
I have been reading all the reply posts and I have been re-thinking this name too ( again, provided this snake is a different line ), and I think that making it as simple as possible would be the best way to go. "Ultra Amber" ???
It will actually decribe this snake in more ways than one.
1: it will define the "Ultra Hypo" trait ( again, provided it is different then Type "A" )
and,
2: it will define the INTENSE yellow coloration in this line.
Definition of:
Ultra ( PREFIX ) - Beyond the scope, range, or limit of something.
Ultra ( ADJECTIVE ) - To be going beyond others.
But wait a minute, does this mean if this trait IS proven different than type "A" Hypomelanism, will the term "Ultra" work well when combined with other color/pattern morphs down the line??
"Ultra Lavender"? How does that sound?
We don't even have a name for Hypomelanistic "A" Lavenders yet, other than just that "Hypomelanistic Lavender" Corns.
"Ultra Ghost"? - actually, I believe Joe Pierce has already coined the name "Ice Ghost" to what an "Ultra Ghost" would be, AND he has also coined the term "Lava" to describe the "Ultra Hypo" gene that he is working with.
Hmmm, "Lava Ambers", "Lava Lavenders", Naaaaa.
I don't know? :awcrap:
I made my two suggestions which actually, the more I think about it, the more I lean towards "Ochre" Corn !!
Walter
....... After hearing it in a couple posts, going back to the pic. Rich has provided and re-thinking this, I agree.
I think we should hold off on going through the name game until this line is PROVEN not to be the same as the "Ambers" that have been around for a while.
How do we know that this is not just a refinement in coloration through selective breeding in the "Ambers" we all know today.
Rich said, this is horse of a different color and maybe that's all this is, an "Amber" that displays more yellow coloration than others?? :shrugs:
IF it is proven to be a different line, then yes, I think it should have it's own name to indentify it from the more common 'Ambers", or should I say the "Ambers" produced using the Hypo "A" gene.
As far as the name, Rich said that when he hears the name "Saffron" nothing comes to mind that would make him think of what this animals would look like.
Well, isn't that the point of us trying to figure out a discriptive name for it, to coin it and KNOW what this animals looks like when the name is heard?
I mean, we could call this thing a "Door Knob" Corn and everyone would know what particular line we were talking about, because that specific name is coined to that specific genetic makeup and that specific looking morph.
"Saffron", by definition, explains the INTENSE yellow coloration being seen in this line. That's the only reason why I SUGGESTED it. There are a few people that like it and there are some that don't. That's to be expected.
I have been reading all the reply posts and I have been re-thinking this name too ( again, provided this snake is a different line ), and I think that making it as simple as possible would be the best way to go. "Ultra Amber" ???
It will actually decribe this snake in more ways than one.
1: it will define the "Ultra Hypo" trait ( again, provided it is different then Type "A" )
and,
2: it will define the INTENSE yellow coloration in this line.
Definition of:
Ultra ( PREFIX ) - Beyond the scope, range, or limit of something.
Ultra ( ADJECTIVE ) - To be going beyond others.
But wait a minute, does this mean if this trait IS proven different than type "A" Hypomelanism, will the term "Ultra" work well when combined with other color/pattern morphs down the line??
"Ultra Lavender"? How does that sound?
We don't even have a name for Hypomelanistic "A" Lavenders yet, other than just that "Hypomelanistic Lavender" Corns.
"Ultra Ghost"? - actually, I believe Joe Pierce has already coined the name "Ice Ghost" to what an "Ultra Ghost" would be, AND he has also coined the term "Lava" to describe the "Ultra Hypo" gene that he is working with.
Hmmm, "Lava Ambers", "Lava Lavenders", Naaaaa.
I don't know? :awcrap:
I made my two suggestions which actually, the more I think about it, the more I lean towards "Ochre" Corn !!
Walter
Well, actually I have been working with the Ultra Hypos for several years, but not sure I can pin down what exactly it is. Probably because I don't have any idea exactly how many lines of Hypomelanism I have floating around in my stock. Nor do I know for a fact that all of the animals I have labeled as Ultra Hypos are exactly the same genetic type. Nor do I know whether or not the Ultra Hypo line that Mike Shiver used is the same as ANYTHING hypomelanistic I have here.
I know that I have bred Ultra Hypo to regular Hypomelanism (whatever in the world that is) and gotten Hypos, but some looked substantially different from others within the same clutch. Then I have bred Ultra Hypo to Amber (which SHOULD have been regular type 'A' Hypomelanism) and gotten all normals. Since I don't have a baseline here, giving any sort of solid answers is just not possible at the moment.
I do know that Mike Shiver's Amber based on that Ultra Hypo gene is SUBSTANTIALLY different looking from any other Amber I have ever produced. And I think it would be wise to name them separately NOW while there is only a small number of them out in the marketplace.
"Ultra Amber Corn"? Well if you had what you thought may very well be a new Amelanistic gene, and you developed a Snow Corn off of it, would you call it an Ultra Snow Corn? Think about what this implies to the general public who will not have any idea about what it's genetic makeup is. Nine times out of ten they will probably just think it is the same genetic makeup of the regular Snow Corn, just an enhanced version and will probably breed this Ultra Snow Corn into their regular Snow Corn stock thinking it will enhance the coloration of the subsequent generations. But will it?
I guess I'm not comfortable with the possibility that we may set a precedent by calling one form of Amber "Ultra". This will mean we have two types of Ambers: "Ultra" and "Regular". Which means the previous name of Amber Corn will now need to have this new prefix added to it. No one will be able to just advertise "Amber Corns", because they will be certain to get queries asking if they are the "Ultra" line or "Regular" line from possibly interested purchasers.
So is this Amber Corn by Mike Shiver a genetic type different from regular type 'A' Hypomelanism? Well, I wish I knew what exactly type 'A' Hypomelanism really is. But since I am breeding that "Ultra" Amber corn to several different lines of Hypomelanism I have here, I hope to know a little bit more come hatching season this year. Of course, if he winds up being infertile, then about the only thing I WILL know is that I will have a very pretty looking golden colored snake skin belt for sale around August sometime. :crying:
In short, is it too early to apply a name to this line? What is worse, being too early or too late?
Man, and in my music playing days, I thought thinking of a name for our new band was tough to do.....
I know that I have bred Ultra Hypo to regular Hypomelanism (whatever in the world that is) and gotten Hypos, but some looked substantially different from others within the same clutch. Then I have bred Ultra Hypo to Amber (which SHOULD have been regular type 'A' Hypomelanism) and gotten all normals. Since I don't have a baseline here, giving any sort of solid answers is just not possible at the moment.
I do know that Mike Shiver's Amber based on that Ultra Hypo gene is SUBSTANTIALLY different looking from any other Amber I have ever produced. And I think it would be wise to name them separately NOW while there is only a small number of them out in the marketplace.
"Ultra Amber Corn"? Well if you had what you thought may very well be a new Amelanistic gene, and you developed a Snow Corn off of it, would you call it an Ultra Snow Corn? Think about what this implies to the general public who will not have any idea about what it's genetic makeup is. Nine times out of ten they will probably just think it is the same genetic makeup of the regular Snow Corn, just an enhanced version and will probably breed this Ultra Snow Corn into their regular Snow Corn stock thinking it will enhance the coloration of the subsequent generations. But will it?
I guess I'm not comfortable with the possibility that we may set a precedent by calling one form of Amber "Ultra". This will mean we have two types of Ambers: "Ultra" and "Regular". Which means the previous name of Amber Corn will now need to have this new prefix added to it. No one will be able to just advertise "Amber Corns", because they will be certain to get queries asking if they are the "Ultra" line or "Regular" line from possibly interested purchasers.
So is this Amber Corn by Mike Shiver a genetic type different from regular type 'A' Hypomelanism? Well, I wish I knew what exactly type 'A' Hypomelanism really is. But since I am breeding that "Ultra" Amber corn to several different lines of Hypomelanism I have here, I hope to know a little bit more come hatching season this year. Of course, if he winds up being infertile, then about the only thing I WILL know is that I will have a very pretty looking golden colored snake skin belt for sale around August sometime. :crying:
In short, is it too early to apply a name to this line? What is worse, being too early or too late?
Man, and in my music playing days, I thought thinking of a name for our new band was tough to do.....
SODERBERGD
Active member
Too early
We've learned what premature naming can do. I don't think we have any business naming them now. What if the look you have is due to a combining of two different hypos? What if the next generation has a new color? What if breeding two of these together yields non hypos? There are so many "what ifs", I can't believe we're even trying to name it. Cases in point (bloodred), (crimson). Neither is the color of their namesake. This isn't a new car that can be cloned for generations. We don't know exactly how this gene or compound genes work so we shouldn't be messing with it other than to call it what it is for now. For the interum, we should call it ultra caramel or ultra amber since it is the combination of ultra and caramel. In lieu of having a name for the anerythristic bloodred, nobody's getting confused about that. YET!?
In short, I concur with Rich that it's too early to name it or in a few years we'll have a 20 page thread like the bloodred issue and people coming up with different names on every web page. Let's try to end up with just one on this bugger.
We've learned what premature naming can do. I don't think we have any business naming them now. What if the look you have is due to a combining of two different hypos? What if the next generation has a new color? What if breeding two of these together yields non hypos? There are so many "what ifs", I can't believe we're even trying to name it. Cases in point (bloodred), (crimson). Neither is the color of their namesake. This isn't a new car that can be cloned for generations. We don't know exactly how this gene or compound genes work so we shouldn't be messing with it other than to call it what it is for now. For the interum, we should call it ultra caramel or ultra amber since it is the combination of ultra and caramel. In lieu of having a name for the anerythristic bloodred, nobody's getting confused about that. YET!?
In short, I concur with Rich that it's too early to name it or in a few years we'll have a 20 page thread like the bloodred issue and people coming up with different names on every web page. Let's try to end up with just one on this bugger.
Walter Smith
CRAZY BOUT' CORNS !!
I guess........
...... you are right Rich. It probably is better to do this and get it over with now.
Early is better then too late.
On the term "Ultra Amber". Yes, it does describe this line of "Ambers" to a certaitn extent, but I think no one has really thought of what we might be going through in years to come when it's combined with other color/pattern morphs.
I thought that coining names to specific lines of animals was to
1: Shorten the name to make it easier for identification
( example: Amelanistic Caramel = "Butter"
Hypomelanistic Anerythristic = "Ghost" )
and
2: To describe the APPEARENCE/COLORATION of a animal
Amber - the color of Amber
Butter - the color of Butter
Candy Cane - the color of a Candy Cane
Pewter - the color of Pewter
Coral Snow - the pink Coral color
all of these and many more ALL describe the lines by it's COLORATION and no one seems to be confused about THEIR genetic makeup ( traits used in creating each certain line ), so I guess what I'm getting at is the name dosen't really NEED to have "Ultra" in it to describe this particular Hypomelanistic trait. Just coining a name to this particular line will let eveyone know this difference,
an "Amber" Corn is a Hypomelanistic Caramel produced by using type "A" Hypomelanism.
"Saffron" Corn, "Ochre" Corn, "GoldDust" Corn,
or "Whatever" Corn
is a Hypomelanistic Caramel produced by using
type "???" ( "ultra" ) Hypomelanism.
WEEEEEEEEEEEE, isn't this fun
Walter
...... you are right Rich. It probably is better to do this and get it over with now.
Early is better then too late.
On the term "Ultra Amber". Yes, it does describe this line of "Ambers" to a certaitn extent, but I think no one has really thought of what we might be going through in years to come when it's combined with other color/pattern morphs.
I thought that coining names to specific lines of animals was to
1: Shorten the name to make it easier for identification
( example: Amelanistic Caramel = "Butter"
Hypomelanistic Anerythristic = "Ghost" )
and
2: To describe the APPEARENCE/COLORATION of a animal
Amber - the color of Amber
Butter - the color of Butter
Candy Cane - the color of a Candy Cane
Pewter - the color of Pewter
Coral Snow - the pink Coral color
all of these and many more ALL describe the lines by it's COLORATION and no one seems to be confused about THEIR genetic makeup ( traits used in creating each certain line ), so I guess what I'm getting at is the name dosen't really NEED to have "Ultra" in it to describe this particular Hypomelanistic trait. Just coining a name to this particular line will let eveyone know this difference,
an "Amber" Corn is a Hypomelanistic Caramel produced by using type "A" Hypomelanism.
"Saffron" Corn, "Ochre" Corn, "GoldDust" Corn,
or "Whatever" Corn
is a Hypomelanistic Caramel produced by using
type "???" ( "ultra" ) Hypomelanism.
WEEEEEEEEEEEE, isn't this fun
Walter
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Serpwidgets
New member
I think it's fairly certain that these are not the standard hypo. Kat's Hypo Motley (het caramel/amel) from the same lines was bred to an amber and also produced no hypos. IMO the most likely scenario is that some of the Ultras are het for HypoA.
I think we all are gonna end up arguing both sides of the issue on this one.
For example, I personally prefer the name "Phantom" over "Charcoal ghost" because it's shorter and I like the sound of it better. The same argument about confusion between Amber vs Ultra Amber could be made against Charcoal Ghost. That is, people could assume those are anery/charcoal/hypo. I don't think this is something that will happen more than once in a blue moon, though.
I think there needs to be something to distinguish them from regular ambers before they are all over the place, or we will have a big mess later. Whether it's a "yellow" name or a "gene name" IMO anything is better than calling them "amber" at this point.
IMO the gene names "Ultra Amber" or "Ultra Caramel" are perfectly reasonable to use.
-or-
Given the fact that they're "hypo caramels" and we know what those genes do, IMO we can at least assume that these will be within a certain color range. I don't think a "color" name will end up being any less accurate than charcoal, amber, lavender, etc.
I think we all are gonna end up arguing both sides of the issue on this one.
For example, I personally prefer the name "Phantom" over "Charcoal ghost" because it's shorter and I like the sound of it better. The same argument about confusion between Amber vs Ultra Amber could be made against Charcoal Ghost. That is, people could assume those are anery/charcoal/hypo.
I don't think this is something that will happen more than once in a blue moon, though.I think there needs to be something to distinguish them from regular ambers before they are all over the place, or we will have a big mess later. Whether it's a "yellow" name or a "gene name" IMO anything is better than calling them "amber" at this point.
IMO the gene names "Ultra Amber" or "Ultra Caramel" are perfectly reasonable to use.
-or-
Given the fact that they're "hypo caramels" and we know what those genes do, IMO we can at least assume that these will be within a certain color range. I don't think a "color" name will end up being any less accurate than charcoal, amber, lavender, etc.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
Actually, Don...
I think you came up with the name for a new corn breeding business a few posts ago. I can see it now "CORNFUSIONS - Crazy Corns Galore!"
Although the name saffron does have a certain ring to it, I like the idea that ultra is a prefix that is short, descriptive, and also has a ring to it. If you don't like it attached to amber, then it could go with ultra caramel instead. I think ultra ghost, ultra lav, etc, would sound great and descriptive. After a while, people would get used to thinking of ultra as just another type of hypo, but one which is generally ultra light, closer to amel than the old one. Of course some people will be clueless and won't care to research before they breed. But that will be true no matter what the name is. A valid point made earlier was that if every combo gets a new color name like lemon, banana, saffron, etc, and then we add those to the "non-commonly accepted" (by the majority of breeders) one of a kind names that various individual breeders use, it will get REALLY confusing. Like most of you, I get constant requests for corns with names I never heard of before, and have no idea what they are. At least the prefix ultra could accompany several already accepted morphs and would be only one new thing for people to learn and remember.
I have an '03 male from Mike S. that is the son of the one Rich got from him, and looks just like him (the snake, not Rich!). Mike said that most of these ultras are het for the regular "old" hypo and often throw regular ambers when bred to a regular amber. It looks like we will know more soon about which hypos it is or is not compatible with, and then can decide more properly what needs to be split or lumped together.
I think you came up with the name for a new corn breeding business a few posts ago. I can see it now "CORNFUSIONS - Crazy Corns Galore!"
Although the name saffron does have a certain ring to it, I like the idea that ultra is a prefix that is short, descriptive, and also has a ring to it. If you don't like it attached to amber, then it could go with ultra caramel instead. I think ultra ghost, ultra lav, etc, would sound great and descriptive. After a while, people would get used to thinking of ultra as just another type of hypo, but one which is generally ultra light, closer to amel than the old one. Of course some people will be clueless and won't care to research before they breed. But that will be true no matter what the name is. A valid point made earlier was that if every combo gets a new color name like lemon, banana, saffron, etc, and then we add those to the "non-commonly accepted" (by the majority of breeders) one of a kind names that various individual breeders use, it will get REALLY confusing. Like most of you, I get constant requests for corns with names I never heard of before, and have no idea what they are. At least the prefix ultra could accompany several already accepted morphs and would be only one new thing for people to learn and remember.
I have an '03 male from Mike S. that is the son of the one Rich got from him, and looks just like him (the snake, not Rich!). Mike said that most of these ultras are het for the regular "old" hypo and often throw regular ambers when bred to a regular amber. It looks like we will know more soon about which hypos it is or is not compatible with, and then can decide more properly what needs to be split or lumped together.
Although I didn't bat an eye when Mike Falcon sold me those original animals as "Ultra" Hypos, I guess I'm getting goose bumps running down my back (the bad kind, not the good kind) about this idea of using this sort of label. Do we start naming the other forms of Hypo as "Super" Hypo, "Mega" Hypo, "Awsome" Hypo, or "Stupendous" Hypo?
I don't know, but that sort of thinking just makes my skin crawl.
BTW, I do agree with Serp about that "Charcoal Ghost" name. But "Phantom" doesn't turn my crank either. I guess this goes back to my comic strip days when The Phantom was this guy in purple tights riding around Africa on a white horse beating up on bad guys. But that's just me, I guess.
What can we use for guidelines? Don't people who cultivate roses and other flowering plants have the same sort of problems with names? What do they do?
I don't know, but that sort of thinking just makes my skin crawl.
BTW, I do agree with Serp about that "Charcoal Ghost" name. But "Phantom" doesn't turn my crank either. I guess this goes back to my comic strip days when The Phantom was this guy in purple tights riding around Africa on a white horse beating up on bad guys. But that's just me, I guess.
What can we use for guidelines? Don't people who cultivate roses and other flowering plants have the same sort of problems with names? What do they do?
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
Mega would be good if it was a giant strain - then it really would be "mega" something. But ultra implies it has more or most of something (like the light color, or lack of melanin), which is why we want to breed hypos in the first place. That is why ultra hypo seems appropriate - it is the ultra lack of black when compared to the original hypo.
If the lava proves to be separate from all of the others, I personally would have opted to call it something that described the difference, something having to do with that translucent, glazed look (glazed hypo?), because it would describe that it is a type of hypo, but different than the original. That is why I think the ultra name is appropriate - it is ultra lacking in melanin.
If the lava proves to be separate from all of the others, I personally would have opted to call it something that described the difference, something having to do with that translucent, glazed look (glazed hypo?), because it would describe that it is a type of hypo, but different than the original. That is why I think the ultra name is appropriate - it is ultra lacking in melanin.
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
I also do not like the Ultra Ambers being called basically the same thing as Ambers. An Amber to me is a corn that is Homo hypo/caramel. An Ultra Amber implies to me that the snake is Homo, ultra, hypo, and caramel.
These snakes may very well be homo for Ultra and hypo, because as Kathy stated, Mike Shivers has also told me that the Ultras may be caring the hypo gene either as Homo or het. He has produced “Ultra Ambers” and Ambers in the same clutch, or at least that is how he visually identified them. These “Ultra Ambers“, may just be Ultra Caramels, homo Ultra and Caramel. When we add Ambers to the name, it drags in the regular hypo gene if you ask me.
I have emailed Mike Shivers and Mike Falcon several times and they responded in a fairly detailed manner. Like Rich Z said in the past, Falcon has never varied from his story that the Ultra hypos came from a wild caught snake in the Tampa area. Falcon also has never bred them to other hypos. Shivers did not get his Ultras from Falcon, but got them from Andy Barr who apparently got his Ultras from Falcon. It seems that Barr and Shivers mixed in the hypo gene.
Ultra Hypos, Lavas, and amels can look very similar because the Ultra Hypos and Lavas mimic amels. It would be expected that an Ultra Caramel would look very similar to a Butter without pink eyes. I have started a Lava Caramel project and expect the results to look similar to the Ultra Caramels and Butters.
Kathy is right that my name for the Lava Hypos does not go well when combined with other names such as Lava Caramel. Lava Lavender is worst! I had this problem with the Lava Ghost and switched to an opposite and used Ice Ghost. I am hoping to keep this theme going with all of the morphs that remove red, and “ice out the red lava color, such as “Ice Lavenders“. I guess time will tell if my theme will hold up. The important thing is to keep the genetics straight with a name that links the morph to the mutant gene which creates it.
On the other hand, Ultra does go well with other morphs. We know exactly what we are talking about when we refer to them as Ultra hypos and know they are different than the other hypos. Ultra Caramel, Ultra Ghost, or Ultra Lavenders works well. Ultra Ghost, I believe already exist, but most of them have lost there connection to the Ultra hypo gene which is too bad. The suspected Ultra Ghost that I have seen, look similar to the one that Hurley just posted in the photo section, very light, with blue eyes. They look similar to the Ice Ghost which would be expected.
I am assuming that the Ultras and Lavas are not compatible, but what a wrench would be thrown into this if they happen to be! Kats test breeding between the two will be very revealing and I for one am like a father pacing in the waiting room waiting for those eggs to hatch. Considering the Ultras originated from the Tampa Florida area and the Lavas originated in the Jasper Co, South Carolina area it seems very unlikely. Many of the Ultras also have white on them, where the Lavas do not. It is a very odd combination to see a hypo with white on them. It appears that you overlaid an amel and hypo photo of the same snake.
In conclusion, I think it is very good that this subject is being discussed. I feel is will become more important than ever to keep track of multiple homo morphs which include one of the hypo morphs. The list of hypo morphs may grow this year to include four known hypos and more probably already exist which have just not been tested out yet. This is also going to apply to the anery type morphs too. This list is going to grow as well. We need to keep track of the genetics involved with the hypos and anerys especially when combined with other morphs or we will really get things mixed up.
How many “Ghost” and “Coral” Snows out there have lost the link to their genetic make up which will make them incompatible. It is possible to bred a “Coral Snow” Homo hypo, anery a, and amel with a “Coral Snow” homo ultra, anery b and amel, and get only amels if the genetics of the “Coral Snows” are not known. They should not all be called “Coral Snows” any more than the Ultra Ambers should include the Amber name.
I am afraid that there are a lot of double homo morphs out there like Ghost Types and “Coral Snows” Types that are what I consider “Space Garbage” and have lost there link to there genetic make up and will have compatibility problems. Since compatibility is a very important thing when it comes to reproducing a desired morph, it will become increasingly important and I feel more valuable to have the genetics known of your breeding stock. It is unfortunate that the hypo and Ultra hypos have been mixed up in the Ultra Caramels but it can be figured out just like the anery A and B that came mixed up.
These snakes may very well be homo for Ultra and hypo, because as Kathy stated, Mike Shivers has also told me that the Ultras may be caring the hypo gene either as Homo or het. He has produced “Ultra Ambers” and Ambers in the same clutch, or at least that is how he visually identified them. These “Ultra Ambers“, may just be Ultra Caramels, homo Ultra and Caramel. When we add Ambers to the name, it drags in the regular hypo gene if you ask me.
I have emailed Mike Shivers and Mike Falcon several times and they responded in a fairly detailed manner. Like Rich Z said in the past, Falcon has never varied from his story that the Ultra hypos came from a wild caught snake in the Tampa area. Falcon also has never bred them to other hypos. Shivers did not get his Ultras from Falcon, but got them from Andy Barr who apparently got his Ultras from Falcon. It seems that Barr and Shivers mixed in the hypo gene.
Ultra Hypos, Lavas, and amels can look very similar because the Ultra Hypos and Lavas mimic amels. It would be expected that an Ultra Caramel would look very similar to a Butter without pink eyes. I have started a Lava Caramel project and expect the results to look similar to the Ultra Caramels and Butters.
Kathy is right that my name for the Lava Hypos does not go well when combined with other names such as Lava Caramel. Lava Lavender is worst! I had this problem with the Lava Ghost and switched to an opposite and used Ice Ghost. I am hoping to keep this theme going with all of the morphs that remove red, and “ice out the red lava color, such as “Ice Lavenders“. I guess time will tell if my theme will hold up. The important thing is to keep the genetics straight with a name that links the morph to the mutant gene which creates it.
On the other hand, Ultra does go well with other morphs. We know exactly what we are talking about when we refer to them as Ultra hypos and know they are different than the other hypos. Ultra Caramel, Ultra Ghost, or Ultra Lavenders works well. Ultra Ghost, I believe already exist, but most of them have lost there connection to the Ultra hypo gene which is too bad. The suspected Ultra Ghost that I have seen, look similar to the one that Hurley just posted in the photo section, very light, with blue eyes. They look similar to the Ice Ghost which would be expected.
I am assuming that the Ultras and Lavas are not compatible, but what a wrench would be thrown into this if they happen to be! Kats test breeding between the two will be very revealing and I for one am like a father pacing in the waiting room waiting for those eggs to hatch. Considering the Ultras originated from the Tampa Florida area and the Lavas originated in the Jasper Co, South Carolina area it seems very unlikely. Many of the Ultras also have white on them, where the Lavas do not. It is a very odd combination to see a hypo with white on them. It appears that you overlaid an amel and hypo photo of the same snake.
In conclusion, I think it is very good that this subject is being discussed. I feel is will become more important than ever to keep track of multiple homo morphs which include one of the hypo morphs. The list of hypo morphs may grow this year to include four known hypos and more probably already exist which have just not been tested out yet. This is also going to apply to the anery type morphs too. This list is going to grow as well. We need to keep track of the genetics involved with the hypos and anerys especially when combined with other morphs or we will really get things mixed up.
How many “Ghost” and “Coral” Snows out there have lost the link to their genetic make up which will make them incompatible. It is possible to bred a “Coral Snow” Homo hypo, anery a, and amel with a “Coral Snow” homo ultra, anery b and amel, and get only amels if the genetics of the “Coral Snows” are not known. They should not all be called “Coral Snows” any more than the Ultra Ambers should include the Amber name.
I am afraid that there are a lot of double homo morphs out there like Ghost Types and “Coral Snows” Types that are what I consider “Space Garbage” and have lost there link to there genetic make up and will have compatibility problems. Since compatibility is a very important thing when it comes to reproducing a desired morph, it will become increasingly important and I feel more valuable to have the genetics known of your breeding stock. It is unfortunate that the hypo and Ultra hypos have been mixed up in the Ultra Caramels but it can be figured out just like the anery A and B that came mixed up.
Kat
I'm talkin' to YOU.
Hehehe... I doubt it. I was looking through a gardening catalog a few weeks ago and came across a variety of rose called 'Golden Showers'. I kid you not. Whoever let that one through was definitely not paying attention.
Aaaaanyway... suggestions for ultramber morph names:
Sunshine corn
Lemon corn
Sunflower corn
Banana corn
Xanthic corn? (It certainly possesses a great deal of yellow pigment...)
I also kind of like the Golddust corn...
-Kat
cowtownherper
New member
It was stated above that the term ultra would be confusing to the general public. Well, I'm general public. Using the word ultra to mean a different type of hypo makes a lot of sense to me. I dont find it confusing at all. Is the carmel, amber breeding the only thing happening right now? I personnaly would like to see it added to more common corns first. Such as Oketee or Miami's. I think it would be much easier for the common newbie like my self if he could see a hypo Miami sitting next to a ultra Miami on the same table.
SODERBERGD
Active member
My sentiments exactly. . .
I like the term 'ultra'. It has dual meanings and rolls off the tongue.
If all corns are on a family tree, I see the ultra making an entirely new branch. It will lend itself to "creating" new looks for all existing morphs. It will be associative if we hear ultra as a prefix to those new morphs and will instantly tell us two things. That is is genetically carrying the "ultra" hypo gene AND that gene has an "ultra" melanin reducing affect on morphs it's crossed with.
I like the term 'ultra'. It has dual meanings and rolls off the tongue.
If all corns are on a family tree, I see the ultra making an entirely new branch. It will lend itself to "creating" new looks for all existing morphs. It will be associative if we hear ultra as a prefix to those new morphs and will instantly tell us two things. That is is genetically carrying the "ultra" hypo gene AND that gene has an "ultra" melanin reducing affect on morphs it's crossed with.
Yep, I'd second that one. Ultra would make a good name for this type of hypo. Testing is in the works to prove it as a distinct version of hypo this year, is it not? We've got test breedings against the known incompatible hypos going, right?
Ultra x Standard/Hypo A
Ultra x Sunkissed
Ultra x Lava
Kat, you have some of these going, don't you? Is your Ultra male from the lines producing these Ultra Caramels? Who else is in on this one? My memory is failing me at this moment.
Ultra x Standard/Hypo A
Ultra x Sunkissed
Ultra x Lava
Kat, you have some of these going, don't you? Is your Ultra male from the lines producing these Ultra Caramels? Who else is in on this one? My memory is failing me at this moment.
SODERBERGD
Active member
ultra motley
I bred my ultra motley to bloodreds, butters and more this month. I do not have ultra caramels. YET!
I bred my ultra motley to bloodreds, butters and more this month. I do not have ultra caramels. YET!
gardenmum
Hopelessly Addicted
Well said Don
I agree completely. I don't see any reason why ulta could not be used and its meaning well understood. To me it would designate its hypo lineage which makes it easiest to identify with and could be used with other morphs we already have established and would lend itselt to having no problem with understandability or identification of such morph.
And the concern about being called ultra amber to me does not lend itself to meaning hypo hypo caramel. I know Amber is a hypo caramel but the word itself does not MEAN hypo caramel. We already have Ice Ghost, Coral snows, Silver Queen Ghosts, etc. and no one seems to be confusing them as being the simply designated ghost or snow.
Just my 2 cents.
I agree completely. I don't see any reason why ulta could not be used and its meaning well understood. To me it would designate its hypo lineage which makes it easiest to identify with and could be used with other morphs we already have established and would lend itselt to having no problem with understandability or identification of such morph.
And the concern about being called ultra amber to me does not lend itself to meaning hypo hypo caramel. I know Amber is a hypo caramel but the word itself does not MEAN hypo caramel. We already have Ice Ghost, Coral snows, Silver Queen Ghosts, etc. and no one seems to be confusing them as being the simply designated ghost or snow.
Just my 2 cents.
Darin Chappell
Very Senior Hillbilly
"I'm just wild about Saffron, and she's just wild about me!"
C'mon ... Am I the only one that remembers that old song??? Mellow Yellow??? Ah well, old age has its perks, and being alone in the crowd is often one of them, I'm discovering.
We COULD call them 49'er corns, because it's all about finding more yellow!
Seriously, I'm all for using the name "Ultra" to describe animals that are homozygous for this form of hypo, providing we ARE talking about a distinct form of hypomelanism here. Once that has been proven by doing all of the necessary breeding trials, then I think these names should sort themselves out rather nicely.
I would suggest possibly keeping the "hypo" with the Ultra, however. "Ultra lavender" sounds to me like an animal more lavender than Rich's lines, instead of a hypo lav with even less melanin than usual.
Oh well, another "name the morph" thread ... cool!
C'mon ... Am I the only one that remembers that old song??? Mellow Yellow??? Ah well, old age has its perks, and being alone in the crowd is often one of them, I'm discovering.
We COULD call them 49'er corns, because it's all about finding more yellow!
Seriously, I'm all for using the name "Ultra" to describe animals that are homozygous for this form of hypo, providing we ARE talking about a distinct form of hypomelanism here. Once that has been proven by doing all of the necessary breeding trials, then I think these names should sort themselves out rather nicely.
I would suggest possibly keeping the "hypo" with the Ultra, however. "Ultra lavender" sounds to me like an animal more lavender than Rich's lines, instead of a hypo lav with even less melanin than usual.
Oh well, another "name the morph" thread ... cool!