Naming of the Ultra Hypo "Amber" Corn

[Kat]

Kat, you have some of these going, don't you? Is your Ultra male from the lines producing these Ultra Caramels? Who else is in on this one? My memory is failing me at this moment.

Yes... I'm doing the sunkissed X Ultra and the lava X ultra. I've already done a hypoA X ultra and gotten normals. He's from the same lines as the ultra caramels/high-yellow ambers/whateveryawannacallems. I'm not aware of who else has the ultras.

I would suggest possibly keeping the "hypo" with the Ultra, however. "Ultra lavender" sounds to me like an animal more lavender than Rich's lines, instead of a hypo lav with even less melanin than usual.

Darin... you're making assumptions about what an animal dh for ultrahypo and lavender will look like. We don't know. For all we know, ultra lavenders could be super bright, or could be lavenders with lots of yellow. Since no one has produced these yet, we have absolutely no idea what they'll look like, and thus no idea whether 'ultra lavender' is an appropriate or a terrible name.

-Kat

 

[Rich Z]

I'm still having problems with the "ultra" prefix. Since the original name of this line was "Ultra Hypo", and if we now decide to call Mike Shiver's Amber line "Ultra Amber", there is a conflict here somewhere. How would you define both of those names in the same paragraph? If "Ultra Amber" is a combination of Caramel and Ultra (or will people think a triple combination of Hypo Caramel and Ultra?) then wouldn't this definition imply that "Ultra Hypo" is a combination (double homozygous) of Ultra and Hypomelanism? To be consistent, wouldn't we have to call it an "Ultra Hypo Caramel"?

Since Amber is already a combo of Hypomelanism and Caramel, calling Mike's line as "Ultra Ambers" OR "Ultra Hypo Ambers" is going to drive people nuts later on.

Will the new names coming be "Ultra Lavender", "Ultra Blood Red", or "Ultra Motley"? Or will they be "Ultra Hypo Lavender", "Ultra Hypo Blood Red", and "Ultra Hypo Motley"?

We have a problem in that the ORIGINAL name of this line is called "Ultra Hypo". What are we going to do about that? You can't drop the "Hypo" in some instances but not in other if you want to have any sort of consistency in these names.

Look further down the road when we WILL have this Ultra Hypo line combined with other lines INCLUDING existing Hypomelanistic cultivars.

My gut feeling is that we need to get away with this feeling that we HAVE to keep the original name of the gene existing in all subsequent gene combinations. It is going to get VERY messy, VERY quickly if we try to do that. Yeah, I know..... Hypomelanistic Lavender..... Man, I just can't THINK of a good name for that one! Especially since I don't know where they are going in appearance even this early in development.

Maybe we need to assign one person (drawing the short straw is the loser) to do this naming stuff. Every two years, after the crowd has tarred and feathered this poor soul, we will draft another to take his/her place.

 

[Kat]

Perhaps we should form a volunteer New Morph Naming Comittee? The committee takes name submissions, solicits input from the cornsnake community on their opinions of the names, and ultimately chooses a name. I would say the committee should also give weight to what the creator/discoverer(s) of the morph would like to call it (assuming said person(s) want to give input at all) as well.
I would say the characteristics for a good name are: that it be

1. Somewhat descriptive -- This doesn't mean it has to describe EXACTLY what the gene does in all homozygous animals or in all homozygous combinations... but it should conjure up atleast a vague image of what the single homozygous morph should resemble. The name should be associatable with the morph's appearance.

2. Marketable -- Nobody's going to want to buy 'Raisin' corns. The name should atleast sound good or sound official. 'Sunglow' is a good example of a good sounding name, and Anerythristic is an example of an official-sounding name.

3. Not easily confused with another morph name -- Someone was selling 'Sunspot' corns. 'Sunspot' is a bit too close in name to 'Sunglow' and people might get confused.

4. Not easily confused with other words with totally different meanings. Sorry to pick on you Serp, but 'Diffuse' is very easy for the mainstream crowd to confuse with 'Defuse'. This isn't to say we should worry about easily misspelled words. So long as the -meaning- of the word sticks with the morph, I don't see a problem. (Everybody knows what a 'stripped' corn is, even if the word 'striped' is misspelled.)

This post went longer than I intended it to, but anyway... those are my thoughts on the subject.
-Kat

 

[Taceas]

Another "Name the Morph" thread? Lovely. I guess all these people out there with eggs in the ovens are getting their thinking caps on trying to figure out how to rock the boat the most.

Anyway..I kind of like the "Ultra" name, assuming it isn't the same thing as the Lava gene. For me it describes what the Ultra hypo shows..an ultra lack of melanin. Heck I'm all in favor of renaming all of the Hypos to some kitchy name. Hypo A, B, C, D, etc just doesn't do much for me. And those names should go along with whatever morphs they're crossed into. But it seems as we progress with the Hypos from A-Z the more melanin is removed. Maybe we need to think about that and name them accordingly.

This is just a demonstration, not something entirely in mind:
Hypo A = Ghost: So any cross would be Ghost (Morph)
Hypo B= Phantom: Phantom (Morph)
Hypo C= Ultra: Ultra (Morph)
Hypo D = Lava: Lava (morph)

Ultra doesn't confuse me in the least, as a representive of the Public. I understand the hypo mess for the most part and see the different variations as uniquely different. Although hopefully the test breedings come out and show everyone one way or another.

I also don't see a problem with discussing this while we're waiting on the eggs to hatch. Better to come up with ideas before the trouble begins than afterwards. But I think we should just be throwing names out and discussing them rather than getting dead set on a name before we even know what we're dealing with.

For me I love the name lava for the strictly Hypo individuals..but when it starts getting crossed into the other morphs it doesn't quite fit too well.

Wouldn't it be a kick in the head if the Ultra Amber look actually came from the cooperation of both the different hypo genes? Then what do ya do? =P



As for the names suggested earlier and some of my own additions:

Saffron: Sounds yummy to me and I know it matches the color of the saffron rice I have in my cupboard.

Ochre: I tend to think more of ochre as the red variety

Gold(something): Not too fond of it. Reminds me of Goldmember too much. =P

Canary: I expect a neon-yellow snake

Mustard: Maybe =P

Lemon: Again, neon yellow expectations

Cadmium: Sounds damn cool to me, but I'm a science geek

Daffodil: It looks like the color of my daffodils blooming in my yard atm

Buttercup: Again another close match for flower color

Pineapple: A maybe

Mango: Matches the fruit flesh color


I personally lean towards the food names more so than anything else. But for a good all around name, I still think Ultra fits the bill for being the most easily understood.

 

[Simon]

Well I have been re reading this post again and I see that most people here that replied basically already knows that Ultra means Hypo D (if this is uncompatable to the Lava (hypo c) gene)

So I don't really see much problem with the Ultra (morph) thing.

The only thing that I would concern is, like Rich said. Should we be calling them "Ultra Ambers" or "Ultra Phantoms" or something that uses the 'old hypo' gene?

Would people be thinking that 'oh Ultra Ambers, that must mean trip homo for Hypo a, hypo c and caramel gene all in one'

so I think that the Ultra Amber is not too good. But as Don said, 'Ultra Caramel' should be great. Since most people here already understands that 'Ultra' already means Hypo D. Then I don't see too much trouble with Ultra Caramel. At least people would get the idea that Ultra Caramel would mean Hypo D Caramel. And then think of what the animal looks like

There are always people that doesn't know the stuff and assume they know it all and sell things back out with different names or genetic make up. That is why we have reputable breeders and set a basic marketing name for MOST people to understand.

The reason why I don't like calling them new names is that it just makes things too complicated. Especially with all these new genes poping up once in a while.

I don't know..
maybe we should get a little vote/poll going on and see how most people around this forum would think on naming a new corn snake name or just sticking with Ultra (morph).

This could be a little 'advertisement' for the Ultra gene and see what most people think about the new gene's name.

i really think that Ultra (morph) would be easy to understand, easy to get the image of the snake, and easy to say out for the hypo D gene.

I could see that it would be quite difficult to say Lava Lavender, but at least we know what is to be expected if we did say "Lava Lavender' later on.

People will get used to the new name once they have seen the picture of the animal plus the name.

Don't know if this whole paragraph is making sense but my point is to stick with the Ultra (morph) naming system~

 

[elaphe4herps]

sounds good...

I'm with you Simon. If I gather correctly, Rich doesn't like the fact that Ultra Hypo Amber could mean hypo a, hypo d, caramel or hypo d caramel animal. If we use ultra as a prefix meaning hypo d, then we should use the base gene (caramel, lavender, anery...) not the old hypo version of the gene (amber, hypo lav, ghost...).


"Ultra hypo" (morph) is redundant, so..."ultra" should be defined as "a homozygous hypomelanistic D animal" and since amber means "hypo A caramel", an ultra hypo amber would be techinically defined as "homo hypo D, hypo, hypo A, Amber" whereas we are looking for an animal that is "homo hypo D, hypo A, Amber"= Ultra Amber. Along the same lines, if we wanted to cross a caramel with an ultra, the hypo A gene is NOT in there, so amber could NOT be used; the animal should be called an ultra caramel.

Essentially, we need to think of a ghost as a hypo a anery again and an amber as a hypo a caramel. then, when we breed ultra X caramels, that is what they will be called... Ultra caramels; so an animal that is hypo a anery would = ghost but hypo d anery would = ultra anery. Therefore, a hypo a, hypo d, anery would = Ultra ghost. I might be rambling on, but it makes sense to me.

So, why can't we just drop the hypo from "ultra Hypo" Rich? In all instances i can think of, we can safely drop hypo and still understand that an ultra motley is a hypo D motley. An ultra hypo motley would mean the animal is triple homo for hypo a, hypo b and motley. So, I think we should rename Mike's line and do exactly what Rich said and get way from the past and straighten things up now. Mike's line (if it indeed does not have hypo A in it), should be called the Ultra Caramel line (because it's hypo D and caramel, right?)

To answer the thread's question, the animal (according to these guidelines) should be called an Ultra Caramel (assuming the hypo A gene is not in the mix). If it IS..... then it's an Ultra Amber. Only breeding tests will prove it. :cheers:

Wes Spinks

 

[Drizzt80]

Possibly off track a bit, but I think there is some misleading information getting posted. Not to pick on you Taceas, but you listed:
HypoA=ghost
HypoB=phantom
HypoC=lava
HypoD=ultra (not yet 100% certain)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a phantom a charcoal ghost (double homo charcoal and HypoA)? A ghost by itself would also be hypoA/AneryA. I can't see giving the ghost name to all the HypoA morphs . . . too confusing! Also, unless I'm wrong, naming HypoB as phantom completely messes up the pictures I had in my head up to this point.

Lastly, on somebody's price list somewhere, and I can't rightly recall where, I ran across a description of a sunglow as being a HypoA Amel. That really threw me for a loop.

On the subject, Amber is a hypoA caramel, so these 'Ultra Ambers' need to be called Ultra Caramels which really doesn't elicit a vision in my head of how bright they should be looking. Ultra Amber does in fact literally tell me they are homo for both Ultra Hypo and Hypo A. I would have to agree with Rich they need a 'name' separate' from Ultra or Ultra Hypo. Gold Dust seems one of the best for me.

D80

 

[Clint Boyer]

I think adding Ultra to Caramel is like adding hypo to Caramel. It will need a separate name eventually.
There are 2 different types of hypo (or so we think). When you combine anery 'A' to amel you get Snow, when you add anery 'B' to amel do you get Charcoal Snow? My point being that each gets a unique name. Maybe UltraGold?
I don't really like naming it Ultra Amber for the reasons already stated, also for the fact that I think it takes away from the existing Amber. It makes it sound , well, inferior. You know....OH, just a normal Amber, not the "Ultra".

 

[elaphe4herps]

very true clint...

I have a quick question, for Rich (or anyone else who might know the answer, or can gather it from the first post in this thread). This animal we are trying to name...it is caramel with the "Ultra Hypo" (hypo d) gene that makes it look like an extremely yellow version of the amber? and it belongs to Rich right? and he received the first "ultra hypo" male from Mike Shivers or Mike Falcon? If Mike S. and Mike F. have different "ultra hypos", shouldn't we see if they have different "ultras"?

Back on the topic...you bring up a good point Clint, Ultra Amber takes a lot away from amber. Ultra would do that to alot of morphs, everyone would want ultras, not just regulars. So what you are saying is that we need to just come up with a name for this corn, and it will just have to be known/understood that it is in fact this animal? So lets just say, hypothetically, that we are going to name this a saffron corn. Well, i guess everyone will have to come to synonymize saffron with a hypo D caramel...understandable. I am torn between the cadmium corn and the canary corn names.

On another note, the corn industry hasn't really messed with the whole prefix and suffix deal in naming corns, so why start now? I agree with Clint.. a name other than "ultra (morph)" should be coined. Like way back when, when opals were called amelanistic lavenders. They are now just opals, but we all know what their genetics are. Does anyone know what Mike Shiver's opinion is on the subject?

Wes Spinks :cheers:

 

[ecreipeoj]

You won't believe this, but Mike Shivers and Mike Falcon are calling the Ultra Hypos, M & M hypos now! Short for Mike and Mike Hypos. Shivers is out of snakes now, but still responds to emails. He thinks we are all making a big deal about the different hypos out there.

Falcon, who is the originator of the Ultra hypo, has some "M & M" "Ambers" of this same line, which is what we are calling Ultra Caramels. "M&M Caramels"? M&M Ambers suggest the hypo a gene is involved to me.

It just doesn't seem right to use a Double Homo name like "Amber" and then add another mutant name to it when they are from the same group of non-compatible mutants, which in this case is the hypo group.

 

[ecreipeoj]

A Sunglow Corn use to be an Amel Corn that had no white on it and was bright. Recently, some Sunglows are sold that are Homo for Hypo A and amel. This double meaning is confusing and I am not so sure if the Sunglows that are Homo for hypo A are bright due to the addition of the hypo A gene at all. I don't see how the Hypo A gene could remove any white color either.

I have some very bright, neon looking amels that have no white on them that do not have a hypo gene involved at all. They are just very saturated with color. It seems to me that when a hypo gene is added to the amel gene, it does change the color of the amel a little, perhaps like a delute gene would do, but does not necessarily make it a brighter color. It seems to make them oranger.

 

[Taceas]

D80,

"Why you always pickin on me?" =P

I realize what I stated wasn't entirely accurate. I was just stating names for the different forms of hypo based on the effects they have upon the animal. At least from the animals *I've* seen personally. They all have differing degrees of melanin reduction.

Hypo A kind of "ghosts" out the melanin.

Hypo B kind of makes it more of a "phantom" appearance.

Hypo C is Lava and I envision lava melting away at old lava rock (black) and it all turning red with a few shiny black places.

Hypo D Ultra is close to Lava..as it's like the ultimate reduction you can get in melanin without the animal being amel.


But I agree with everyone else's statements so far. I think if you simplify it to Ultra Caramel most people WILL understand that means it's homozygous for Hypo D & Caramel. Personally if it were called an Ultra Amber I would automatically infer the animal was triple homozygous for Hypo D, Hypo A, and Caramel.

As far as the Lava name goes, what about switching the names around? Lavender Lava? I haven't any clue what the heck one would look like..but if it came out with purplish-red that might be the best way to describe it. As for Ice Ghosts, I think they should simply be called Ice corns, or something entirely different. To me I find the descriptor name "ghost" to be synonymous with Hypo A effects from the HypoA x AneryA individuals. Personally I love the way Ice Ghost sounds, but it just confuses one when you try and think about whats at work genetically in that animal.

It just all boils down to the fact that there are ignorant people in every hobby who just flat out refuse to even try to learn about the genetics of the animal involved. They just want one that looks like "this one in the picture". We have to try and make a decision that the majority of us out there who do care, can agree on. I think Ultra is still the simplest way to go. It's short, sweet, and accurately describes whats going on within the animal.

I think it'll ultimately be even harder to decide on a name "if" Ultra and Lava are shown to be compatible. I can't even begin to imagine that mess.

And speaking of which, hey Kat..when are those eggs from the Ultrax Lava due to hatch? =P

And there are people calling sunglow to an animal who is homo for Hypo A and amel? That's new to me. I personally can't imagine the hypo increasing the amount of red in an animal at all to the point than it'd turn an amel into our conforming definition of what a sunglow is.

Here's a regular run of the mill amel motley I produced last year from a normal motley het amel female and a normal stripe het amel (who I think is actually motley-stripe). I *could* earn a few more bucks and call her a Sunglow, but I'm an honest person.

 

[Kat]

And speaking of which, hey Kat..when are those eggs from the Ultrax Lava due to hatch? =P

Somewhere in the middle to end of June IIRC, though I'll have to check my notes to be sure.

-Kat

 

[Walter Smith]

I agree..........

........ with Wes's last post. I think there should be a spacific simple name coined. This has been my thoughts from the very beggining of this thread. I believe a name should be coined to describe the APPEARENCE/COLORATION of this line.

Let's just say we did name this snake "Saffron" Corn. Everyone will know and can learn that this SPACIFIC name identifies this SPACIFIC line and it's SPACIFIC traits, in this case type "D" Hypomelanism and Caramel.

It's no different than everyone knowing and learning the name "Amber" identifies a SPACIFIC line and it's SPACIFIC traits, which in this case is type "A" Hypomelanism and Caramel.

As far as the Homozygous lines of Hypomelanism, I think they should just keep the term as "A", "B", "C", "D" and so on. This way when a certain type of hypomelanism is combined into other color/pattern morphs, it's easily explained.

Example:

Caramel X Hypo "A" = "Amber"
Caramel X Hypo "D" = "Saffron"

or if it's easier understood this way:

"Amber" = Caramel X Hypo "A"
"Saffron = Caramel X Hypo "D"

It seems to me that using the prefix "Ultra" would be more confusing, meaning, applying the prefix "Ultra" to "Caramel", to me sounds like a Caramel with more then usual/EXTREME CARAMEL coloration.

Someone in one of the earlier posts said that's how they would think as well. The term "Ultra Lavender" sounds like a "Lavender" with more than usual/EXTREME LAVENDER coloration.

Another good point that Wes made is that when the term "Opal" was coined there was no confusion and everyone understood and understands that an "Opal" is a "Amelanistic Lavender" and it's combination of traits.

Here's a good example of confusion I foresee by appliying the prefix "Ultra", what if it's applied to "Bloodred" ? We already know the mess going on with the name "Bloodred"

"Ultra Bloodred", dosen't that sound like a description of a snake that is expressing more than usual/EXTREME RED coloration?
It does to me.

Again, I think a simple, unique, spacific name should be coined to the APPEARENCE/COLORATION of this particular line and it can be learned, the traits of this line defined BY this SPACIFIC name.

Walter

 

[Serpwidgets]

Just to inject some annoying overcorrectness into the subject...

Using "hypo" as the name of a trait in a combination is no more accurate than using "ultra" as the name of a trait in a combination.

What we've all forgotten is that "hypo" does not mean "reduction of melanin." That's what we as hobbyists have learned as part of this hobby.

"Hypo" means "less" or "under" and is the prefix for "hypomelanism" which means "a reduction of melanin."

By the same token, "Ultra" at this moment in time might mean to some, "a lot of." But in the same way as hypo, it will grow its own new meaning to hobbyists and have its own stand-alone meaning of "that really extreme form of hypo (melanism)."

So... if "Ultra Lavender" is asserted to mean "even more lavender-y than Rich's lavenders" then to that same person they should think "hypo lavender" means "a reduction in lavender-ness" and "hypo bloodred" is "a reduction in bloodred-ness."

It should be fun when a form of hypoerythrism pops up... then "hypo" will no longer have an exclusive attachment to melanin, unless we use "infraerythrism." (Mmmm, that just rolls off the tongue! LOL.)

 

[Serpwidgets]

Hypo A kind of "ghosts" out the melanin.

Hypo B kind of makes it more of a "phantom" appearance.

Actually, Phantom is used by a LOT of people to describe "HypoA Charcoal" (what Rich calls "Charcoal Ghost.")

Here's a regular run of the mill amel motley I produced last year from a normal motley het amel female and a normal stripe het amel (who I think is actually motley-stripe). I *could* earn a few more bucks and call her a Sunglow, but I'm an honest person.

I don't get why you would not call that a sunglow. It's lacking white, it's an amel, it's got bright colors. IMO that's a very nice sunglow motley. (Good pattern, too.)

 

[elaphe4herps]

Yeah, your right Serp.... i had just been using the term "hypo" to mean hypomelanism, just to abbreviate. I am sure when other hypos come out, hypoxanthism, hypoerythrism and such, we will not use the term "hypo" to mean soley hypomelanistic. Hypo lavender was just a short way of saying hypomelanistic lavender...not hypo-lav, as in a reduction of lavender. Sorry about any confusion .

BTW-= IMHO, that is an excellent example of a sunglow mot. I am pretty sure that sunglows started out being an amel animal with no white, and some people used hypomelanism to reduce the amounts of white also; therefore, giving us two ways to get a sunglow, selective breeding and a d.homo amel, hypo animal.

Wes Spinks

 

[Rich Z]

I agree with Wes. "We are using "Hypo" just as a shortened form of saying "Hypomelanism". Just as we will often say "Corns" instead of "Corn Snakes", or "Amel" for "Amelanistic".

Of course, who is to say that 10 years from now that the long names may become forgotten by being unused.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Right, but that's my point: we're using Ultra in the same way in the same context. If Hypo works, so does Ultra.

 

[Drizzt80]

Name suggestion

Okay, I backtracked through this thread, and didn't see the following suggestion mentioned anywhere, but I may have missed it. Let me just say that I was talking with a co-worker tonight at the pet shop, and we were looking at a piece of amber colored marble, and this thread jumped into my head. Now amber itself is often not an intense yellow, but some amber corns are etc. Amber is actually kind of a brownish yellow, burnt sugar look . . . kind of what I'd expect in a hypo caramel name. Okay, so I'm rambling. I pointed to a piece of clear hamster tubing for cages that was a brighter yellow, and asked her what she would call that as far as color. Her immediate response was "CITRINE, my birthstone for November."

Now looking it up on the internet showed that it's not really as yellow as this snake may be, but there is a lot of variance, and the name 'sounds' brighter in my ears etc. It's not any brighter or duller than gold or gold dust would be, which would probably be my personal other two choices.

Here's a couple links to citrine the gemstone (there is variability within the gem's color) and also, it would mesh well with Amber since amber is petrified tree sap and often used as gemstone pendants, etc.

http://www.gemstone.org/gem-by-gem/english/citrine.html
http://www.gemhut.com/citrine.htm

Just a though/idea/brainstorm.

D80