Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns

[SnakeAround]

I agreed with your whole post except this is where you are either being inexperienced or dishonest. You aren't protecting YOUR wallet by selling babies for whatever you can get from them, far from it. You are protecting the wallets of other investors, and especially the people who bought them from you! I assure you if you bought a high end morph from me for $1000 today, and found out I was selling it's het siblings for 50 bucks, you'd be less than happy. I don't advocate feeding them to kingsnakes, but my point stands.

So, if I have to keep a bunch of hatchlings because I can't sell them for the price I want to sell them for, will money get into my wallet from nowhere? If nobody is ever gonna buy them for the price I think they should be sold, I'm better of selling them a.s.a.p., before buyers already got what they want from other sellers whom did drop prices. I'm sorry, I'm not noble enough to make no money at all myself, and even loose more money every day I keep them, to protect my buyers, if that would work anyway. By the way, I don't even have the room to do so. Is that honest enough?

For example, I bred 6 amel tessera's, started with prices like €475,- on the first fair I went to, but found out at the end of the day another breeder already offered them for just over €300,- and had sold a couple. I had sold none. You have to know that there might have been 4 or 5 tables with any tessera on it on the fair. After a few price drops I ended up selling one for €200,- a few months later at another fair. I also have one reserved at the moment through facebook for €275,- but that's it, I still have 4 of them left, and I don't have spare vivs for them. What am I gonna do? How is keeping them protecting my wallet? I might end up selling them next year for €100,-. Meanwhile they need a viv, food and warmth. Should I sell other snakes to accomodate them? Like that's easy these days.... I simply cannot protect the market, hence my buyers or my own wallet if there are not enough people to buy the rest of the clutch for the same price. Is that my fault? I'd love to have a corn that would only produce my target morph an no other offspring... would spare me the efforts and the money to care for them and sell them! If I had bred like 10 clutches I'd say yes, it's your own fault hun. But I bred only one couple because I wanted to make myself an amel Tessera. Can't do less than that to reach my goal.

I think the only true remedy would be if we would not breed as much snakes. If all breeders limited themselves to maybe 6 breedings a year, the flood of animals would dry up quickly. It's said so often by serious breeders that people who don't know genetics and just breed for fun and not for certain purposes, hence usually offering the offspring for low prices, should stop doing that so the market would not be flooded. Let's say all large scale breeders would limit their amount of projects to 25%, don't you think that would help? And what if the medium scale breeders also reduced their breeding by 50%? That way those hobbyist breeder are gonna buy each others snakes and there won't be a surplus. But are those large scale breeders willing to do so? Are the high end medium scale breeders whom plan 3 or 4 or maybe even more breedings a few years in a row for a project willing to decrease the chance of hitting their target morph because they would only do one breeding for a project a year to protect the market? Guess not..... They want to be the first and make the little money there is to make! I think some breeders need to look at their own practice and see what they can do.

I am gonna breed one or two clutches with tessera's next year, and they migth end up being sold for €150,- each if they are as lovely as I think they will be and because one clutch will have some nice hets. I never gave any investment guarantee with the snakes I sold, and anyone willing to pay a few hundred bucks most probably knows the market and would logically not expect to sell normal average looking tessera's for more than maybe €50,- - €75,- by the time the hatchlings they bought are big enough to breed in 2 - 3 year. At least not over here. Investing and be sure of at least breaking even is just not something to expect these days in the corn snake market.

 

[Chip]

I owned roughly 80 breeders and paired up 4 females last year -and froze the double clutches. I am not alone in my ratios of snakes to pairings. Don said in Daytona he only bred two clutches that weren't Palmetto or scaleless, if I recall. Many of us have certainly realized that the demand isn't meeting the supply. One solution if you really just want to make a single amel tessera is hatch only 6-8 eggs. Odds are very good you still get at least one, and you don't have too many babies to place.

My point with my last post was that selling babies for whatever you can get out of them would seem the selfish route, not holding prices.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I owned roughly 80 breeders and paired up 4 females last year -and froze the double clutches. I am not alone in my ratios of snakes to pairings. Don said in Daytona he only bred two clutches that weren't Palmetto or scaleless, if I recall. Many of us have certainly realized that the demand isn't meeting the supply. One solution if you really just want to make a single amel tessera is hatch only 6-8 eggs. Odds are very good you still get at least one, and you don't have too many babies to place.

My point with my last post was that selling babies for whatever you can get out of them would seem the selfish route, not holding prices.

I can definitely see only pairing up 4 females out of 80 breeders if those 4 females are the best you have. If you had 80 heterozygous palmetto breeders though and 80 heterozygous scaleless breeders.... I can bet you might make a few more pairings than just 4. I might even bet there was a scaleless palmetto in the works if I was a betting man and what a beautiful sight that would be.

 

[Chip]

What worries me about a scaleless Palmetto is you are taking a rather bug eyed mutation in the Palmetto and removing it's eye scales, which already gives that illusion in normal corns. I am sure I will do it, though, and will be floored if I am the first.

 

[SnakeAround]

I owned roughly 80 breeders and paired up 4 females last year -and froze the double clutches. I am not alone in my ratios of snakes to pairings. Don said in Daytona he only bred two clutches that weren't Palmetto or scaleless, if I recall. Many of us have certainly realized that the demand isn't meeting the supply. One solution if you really just want to make a single amel tessera is hatch only 6-8 eggs. Odds are very good you still get at least one, and you don't have too many babies to place.

My point with my last post was that selling babies for whatever you can get out of them would seem the selfish route, not holding prices.

If nobody is gonna buy them for the price you want, you end up having them until they die. As long as there are not enough people whom want to pay what the breeders think is a reasonable price, prices are gonna drop, you can't keepp rices high artifically if people are not gonna pay them, especially if not every breeder commits to it, it's how a market works. And of course selling them for what ever you can get for them is selfish, I told you I am not noble enough to take my loss, let it increase day by day and keep hatchlings for ever and sell other snakes to make room to protect the market, whilst I could have sold them for lower prices. When are people gonna realise that the market is as it is, and one can only at least not breed more than necessary and try to sell for reasonable prices first. That is what I did but someone else took the money I deserved as the good sheperd of the market I tried to be (whilst I hoped to make some more money too, I'm not gonna lie about that).

Kuddo's for your choices Dave, I was talking in general when I said some breeders might need to take a look at themselves, not about someone specific. If you have animals left now, I can't accuse you of not trying to protect the market. Yet I do think your motivation might also have been to not get stuck with a bunch of snakes next year which are not sold. Your knife cuts both sides.

 

[dave partington]

Kuddo's for your choices Dave, I was talking in general when I said some breeders might need to take a look at themselves, not about someone specific. If you have animals left now, I can't accuse you of not trying to protect the market. Yet I do think your motivation might also have been to not get stuck with a bunch of snakes next year which are not sold. Your knife cuts both sides.

I did not want to assume you were referring to someone else, which would be to ignore the validity of your point. (And would be disrespectful to you for taking the time to express your thoughts).

Bitsy makes good points.
We can easily find demographics on how many dogs, cats, & the older kinds of traditional pets are destroyed every year. I have not been able to find a global demographic. Yet I have not seen public advertisements for "Please have your reptile pet spayed or neutered".

 

[SnakeAround]

I did not want to assume you were referring to someone else, which would be to ignore the validity of your point. (And would be disrespectful to you for taking the time to express your thoughts).
.

Looking back I actually meant to say to Chip kuddo's for your chocies, breeding only 4 females and freezing 2nd clutches But I also saw your post about giving me reps, thanks!

 

[dave partington]

For example, I bred 6 amel tessera's, started with prices like €475,- on the first fair I went to, but found out at the end of the day another breeder already offered them for just over €300,- and had sold a couple. I had sold none. You have to know that there might have been 4 or 5 tables with any tessera on it on the fair. After a few price drops I ended up selling one for €200,- a few months later at another fair. I also have one reserved at the moment through facebook for €275,- but that's it, I still have 4 of them left, and I don't have spare vivs for them. What am I gonna do? How is keeping them protecting my wallet? I might end up selling them next year for €100,-. Meanwhile they need a viv, food and warmth. Should I sell other snakes to accomodate them? Like that's easy these days.... I simply cannot protect the market, hence my buyers or my own wallet if there are not enough people to buy the rest of the clutch for the same price. Is that my fault? I'd love to have a corn that would only produce my target morph an no other offspring... would spare me the efforts and the money to care for them and sell them! If I had bred like 10 clutches I'd say yes, it's your own fault hun. But I bred only one couple because I wanted to make myself an amel Tessera. Can't do less than that to reach my goal.

How many yearling size (bigger older larger individuals show better) were at the exposition? How often do you see larger older Tessera available, at any price? There seems to be some sort of eagerness to sell off little ones for as much money as possible as quickly as possible. Not just within Tess, but within ALL reptiles across the board. How are all of these little ones going to color up? Personally I hang on to all target, and raise them up a good ways, before parting with any of the individuals which might color up to holdback quality. People seem eager to get their dollars back as fast as possible, and to compete for sales, but often totally miss out on keeping the best phenotypes of what they produce. The prettiest baby that grows up to be a not so attractive adult, and vice versa. Established hardy older stock sells quite well at shows has been my experience. I'll take slow dollars over quick nickles any day.

 

[SnakeAround]

I don't have room to keep them until the next season..... I own about 40 corns now, from '12 to adults, and every year is a battle to be able to keep whant I want/need for my breeding plans space wise. I HAVE to sell some animals each year to do so, whilst there are a few favorites I want to keep for ever. I do like the fact by the way that I have seen my amel t's grow up for half a year now

I have not walked around the show extensively but I know two breeders whom sold hatchlings themselves, together with the quick scan I did and what people told me, I do think there were no juvenile or adult tessera's at the show, except the classic adult male I took with me to hand over to his buyer That buyer was a Tsjech guy whom handed me a very reasonable price no Dutch breeder would ever have paid for him (had a nice amount of money left after buying an 16g 4th generation Ipad from it), so I was very happy to have met him through a Facebook snake group

Apparently over here the market is even worse: even proven adults don't sell well anymore I started keeping snakes in 2005 and really expanded/replaced my collection in the next few years. Since 2011 it's getting harder to even sell proven breeders. I recently sold a better than average looking, '08 proven amel male het anery, motley dilute as a pet to someone whom had to drive 2 hrs to my place. I accepted her offer of €20,- euro since she had to pay for her gas already and because I had him for sale for two years already. Starting list price if I remember right about €75,-, dropped till €40,- at the last fair I went in 2012. I still want to sell my proven lovely '08 amel Abbot's okeetee female, I feel €150,- is a fair price but I'm pretty sure I'm not gonna sell her for that...

 

[NiklasTyreso]

This thread is of topic.
It is not about a breeding standard that defines which traits that are cornsnake traits and which that is hybrid traits.

 

[dave partington]

All the good threads go off topic, but eventually get back on topic.

I'd been looking for this for a very long time:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73663

 

[Susan]

This thread is of topic.
It is not about a breeding standard that defines which traits that are cornsnake traits and which that is hybrid traits.

It is not against the rules for threads to go off topic. That actually happens more times than not on this forum, and most members don't mind.

 

[Isoldael]

While I don't mind it being a bit off-topic, the number of relevant posts towards making an agreement about what's pure and what's not can be counted on one hand . I know this thread was doomed to fail from the moment I started it as it's extremely hard to reach consensus in such a large and diverse group, but I was expecting a bit more on-topic discussing

 

[airenlow]

The poll is pretty telling...

 

[SnakeAround]

Looking at the last option, wouldn't any corn be a hybrid? There was a day when the first corn was born, and his or her parents were not corns...

 

[Isoldael]

Agreed, and the odds of them having hybridized somewhere along the line are pretty great as well.

 

[SnakeAround]

So...... no happy end for the anti hybrid breeders......

 

[beautifullywild77]

Looking at the last option, wouldn't any corn be a hybrid? There was a day when the first corn was born, and his or her parents were not corns...

Sure, so we are back to "What came first? The chicken or the egg?

Again that would be a discussion for either evolution or creation theories! Depending on which you believe in.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

You don't believe in evolution. You either understand the science behind it or your don't. The theory of evolution is science plain and simple while creation theories no matter what culture they derive from are simply not scientific theories as they can not be tested. In science, a theory is not a guess, not a hunch. It's a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations and valid predictions. It ties together all the facts about something, providing an explanation that fits all the observations and can be used to make predictions. In science, theory is the ultimate goal, the explanation. It's as close to proven as anything in science can be. Creation theory on the other hand no matter what cultures theory one uses is neither well-substantiated, well supported, or well-documented, and do not enable valid predictions. All cultures creation stories stand or supported by the mythology that goes with them which are supported by the beliefs/feelings/hunches of those that believe in a similar manner. Evolution is a fact. Evolution is simply genetic change over generations and that has been proven and supported by observation and testing. Micro-evolution has been tested and proven repeatedly. Macro-evolution is nothing more than micro-evolution on a larger time scale. So, the bottom line is once one understands evolution one realizes that such a simple view as proposed by the statement, "If a snake has any hybrid ancestor, no matter how many generations ago, it's still a hybrid" is logically unsound as we all share a common ancestor. There was once a point in our earths history where we were all unicellular organisms. Remember, Homo habilis, Homo rudolfensis, and many other Homo species came long before Homo sapiens came onto the scene. I look at those that answered, "If a snake has any hybrid ancestor, no matter how many generations ago, it's still a hybrid" as clearly not having a firm grasp on evolution or the processes thereof.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

All the good threads go off topic, but eventually get back on topic.

I'd been looking for this for a very long time:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73663

"Nothing is really certain about the genetic lineage of this group of animals, but some of the red on white animals were spectacular and Kevin coined the name 'Candy Cane' based on this original look. Although Glen Slemmer was well known for creating the original emoryi crosses with corns, none of the animals were apparently labeled, so there was no way to determine what any of the individual animals actually were. Certainly not ALL of his corn snakes were involved in the hybrid crosses, so some surely must have been pure corn snakes. Some of Glen Slemmers stock also went to Bill & kathy Love as well as Mark Bell around the same time. I believe Kathy Love mentioned infusing emoryi stock into their Candy Cane project in an article in Reptiles Magazine several years ago, but I'm not certain when this took place in relation to the animals they received from Glen Slemmer's stock. " Thanks for that link Dave. I missed it at first, but caught what you were getting at now. Strictly speaking, I don't believe any animal to be pure or stable as I tend to believe in evolution as it is a fact and I believe in facts that can be observed and proven mountains of supporting evidence. If there was ever a single fact that disproved evolution I would have to re-evaluate my belief or understanding of evolution in much the same manner that I would have to re-evaluate my belief in Kali, Wakinyan, Thor, Hercules, etc. if there was any credible evidence to believe any of those mythological beings were real. Suffice it to say, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" as popularized by Carl Sagan (1934 - 1996).