Implying that our modern species evolved as a result of various hybridization events is also unsound. Evolution occurs due to natural selection as individuals exhibiting the most advantageous characteristics reproduce. This, over very long periods of time changes a population so that it is different, even reproductively incompatible, with neighboring populations. If two of our modern species have a single common ancestor then I don't see how hybridization can be used to explain speciation. Evolution occurs in populations, not individuals, and over a long period of time.
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Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns
- Thread starter Isoldael
- Start date
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Evolution is simply genetic change over generations and yes, each generation and even each individual is a part of that generation. A change in a single individual through a natural mutation or through hybridization can indeed have an effect on the evolution or what is selected for if these mutations or morhps if you will are selected for be it by nature or by man. When someone breeds or selects for traits they are affecting the evolution of a species by the unnatural if you will, selection of traits that the man/woman is selecting for. To suggest that an individual specimen or individual is not the first to mutate or allow for an advantageous or otherwise selected for trait that is then distributed to a population over a period of generations in which other traits are also simultaneously being selected for or against is pretty sound. Hybrid speciation has occurred and has been very well documented.
dave partington
Crazy Dave
Well Carpe, since you enjoyed that,
you might find these old beaten horses a good read too
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9769
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13577
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8153
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39057
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=171393
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=203805&postcount=8
here's some answers I couldn't find the questions to.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1936
and oh yeah, this thread has happened before, sorta...
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17882&highlight=hybrid
Nitey nite.
you might find these old beaten horses a good read too
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9769
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13577
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8153
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39057
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=171393
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=203805&postcount=8
here's some answers I couldn't find the questions to.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1936
and oh yeah, this thread has happened before, sorta...
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17882&highlight=hybrid
Nitey nite.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Wow, I read through the first two posts you linked Dave... took two hours... and all I can say is anyone who takes the time to read the first 3 links you have shared understands there is likely no such thing as a pure corn in any remote sense of the word in the hobby. My opinion, backed by...""I am now working with several examples of Upper Keys corns. At one time they were classified as a separate species (Elaphe rosacea), but now they aren't. Who is to say two years from now that could change back. Then where am I? Or suppose that the Miami Phase corn is considered distinctive enough that some bright eyed and bushy tailed taxonomist somewhere makes a strong case and suddenly that version of the corn snake gets a different subspecific name. It could happen.
On the other side of this same coin, suppose this same taxonomist makes a sufficient case that emoryi (as well as the Kisatchie - sp?) are simply locality variants of Elaphe g. guttata (yeah I know about Pantherophis, but I am not inclined to use that name)? Then all of a sudden the "crosses" with guttata and emoryi are now ok?
Take this all with a grain of salt. You can take a firm stand, but you may be standing on quicksand. Everyone is at the complete mercy of what someone else may have done 20 years ago that is represented in the stock you now have. I heard rumors of a guy that bred many of the tricolors and the way he kept them was in huge outdoor pits. They all interbred together and he sold off those babies for years based simply on what they looked like. This is not a comfirmed story, but I heard it from several sources.
So "purity" is an ideal that may not even be realistic any longer." Rich Z
"A "pure" thing of any species doesn't exist in nature, it only exists in our minds. How precisely can you or anyone else define a "pure" cornsnake? Whatever that definition is, I assure you it is arbitrary, so even then it is a matter of opinion...
IMO if it looks, eats, acts, lives, and breeds like what you expect from a cornsnake, then it is a cornsnake, regardless of if there is some "impure blood" in its ancestry. In fact, as you said, you never do know in the first place, so how is it bad if you don't know in the second place?...We are changing the "species" either way. Look at the captive population compared to the wild population... it's obvious that our selection pressures are very different from natural selection pressures. We are in the process of reshaping the captive population to match our tastes, and everyone who breeds is doing so in their own direction. We are heading toward snakes that will be as different from their wild counterparts as dogs are from wolves. Since all of our tastes as breeders differ, on what grounds can anyone claim the authority to say that their idea of how the species should be changed is the "correct" one?" Serpwidgets
"I definitely lean toward the "hybrid" side of the "scales" (no pun intended). I am really partial to them. I think they are beautiful animals, and I feel as if I should be able to produce them if I choose to. " CORNCRAZY
"Interestingly Darin, your example of the purebred dog registry is a good one, but it may be worth noting that many livestock (cattle and sheep - I am not sure about others) will actually accept 'upgraded' livestock into the registry. A commercial producer who has crossbred animals of no confirmed pedigree can breed them to pure bulls through several generations (I believe 7/8 pure is what is required in the progeny) and they will then be considered purebred and acceptable to the registry, and considered pure for future registration purposes." VanderKM
Interestingly enough, I've heard the same thing from many breeders of animals other just bulls.
"I'm not a big fan of purebreed anything. Sure they're pretty, but about all they're good for is a show. Every purebreed animal I've ever had has had some sort of genetic defect and ended up dying on me, or had to be euthanized. Purebreed to me = inbred. Everything I currently own is a mut and they're all the much healthier for it I believe; cats, dog, ferret, goats, bird, etc. So who's to say that by mixing in a smidgeon of a very very closely related (and maybe genetically identical) isn't bad to add new genes to the mix? I've seen what inbreeding peacocks can do, you end up with short-legged birds, birds with mental problems (yes it happens), and chicks that die days after hatching due to skeletal deformities. "Taceas
"Jim Stelpflug has done many emoryi crosses, including Butter and emoryi. You can check out some pics on his site if you follow this link:
Southwest Wisconsin Reptiles
ButterCream, CandyCream and SunCream come to mind."Clint Boyer
" Once mankind touches anything in nature, it is no longer "natural" anyway, if I understand the meaning of that word. So if I take a corn snake out of the wild, and control what other corn snakes it will mate with, are the offspring still "natural"?" Rich Z
"I often get customers who tell me they prefer my "natural" okeetees over all of the "un-natural" morphs. I have always felt that, even though I have (as far as I can determine) kept my okeetee lines pure okeetee, they are still not much more natural than an amel corn. I certainly have been choosing (for MANY generations) very different criteria than Mother Nature would have chosen to continue the line. Selectively bred okeetees certainly are much brighter and more appealing (to the average person, anyway) than a typical wild-caught specimen.
There are some people who argue against amels and other "mutants" as vehemently as others argue against hybrids. Personally, I don't think there is a truly "natural" corn in my collection, except for one wild-caught animal that I have, and he has a little white spot on him, but I guess it occured "naturally" in his case. So I don't see huge differences here. As long as these are more or less domestic animals, and will never be released into the wild, I can only see why keepers would want to KNOW the heritage of their animals, not why they would be so much against somebody producing any particular type. There are several breeds of dogs that I think are really ugly, but I am not against somebody breeding and keeping them!" Kathy Love
"Most biologists aver that there is no really pure species, since everything is always changing and evolving. Any individual is only a snapshot of the group in time, and not a perfect definable example of a species anyway.
If hybidizing happens at all, then there is no such thing as "pure."
__________________
Austin Herpetological Society" Shaky
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9769&page=9
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now Mike tells me that the female was unrelated to the Ultra line so it shouldnt have produced any Ultras!!!? I'll leave that for you guys to hammer out."mike panic
"I dont really wont to dampen anyones spirits but i do know that the whole line originated from snowcorn x greyrat.I believe they were called greysnows.I used to have pics of some snows Andy reproduced, they had that awesome yellow way more than any others i have ever seen.I do know that over the years Rich has purchased snakes from Andy and some from this line.I cannot tell you the entire background of the ultra hypos but i do know they originally came from this line.Also if you will notice the males are always the nicest ones kind of like the nicest hypo lavs are the males.Could they be related?Makes you wonder.Do you think the lavenders could have derived from this?
Mike”Originally Posted by ecreipeoj
"Hmm, interesting.....
The only way that animals Andy Barr is (was?) working with could be the same Caramel line that I am, is if he released related stock carrying this gene near the Cape Coral, Florida area (near Ft. Meyers), and that mom and pop pet shop where I bought the original female this line came from, was one of those animals.
"As for the animals I purchased from Andy Barr, yes, at one of the earlier Tampa shows, I did purchase a group of babies from Andy that he had displayed on his table. At the time I grilled him about he ancestry, and the ones I was interested in (which he called "Frosteds") he swore were pure corns. Others on his table he indicated were from a gray rat x corn snake project. I bought a couple pairs of Snow Frosted and Anerythristic Frosteds from him at that time....Now after a couple of years of raising up the survivors, I became more and more convinced that they really were not pure corns. I don't believe I ever did breed them, and once I came to this conviction I wanted nothing more then to just get rid of them. Don Soderberg offered to take them, so I made him a really good deal on the entire group, and off they went. End of that story."Rich Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Z
It appears that all of the things I have been told cannot all be true in light of this admission by Mike Shiver. The question is, what exactly IS the truth?
Another question is how many times has this same situation occurred but has gone undiscovered? How many times has animals such as these been sold as Space Garbage and then become a breeder in someone’s collection or it shows up in a pet shop? Is the lack of knowledge that a line may have non-pure corns in its background; enough to say our corns are pure? Are we kidding ourselves?
A few hours ago, Ultra Caramels were pure and now? If this information did not surface, they would be pure tomorrow. Are they any less beautiful? Will they be considered along the lines of Creamcicles now? How many offspring are out there from the Ultra Caramel line? I have an Ultramel het Lavender and many other people have offspring with similar lineage. What do you think of my Ultramel het Lavender now?
__________________Joe Pierce
CornSnakesAlive
"Well, I guess a decision of what to believe and from whom, is in order. At one point Mike Shiver told me the line he was working with are pure corns. Now he is saying they are not.
This indicates a credibility problem......
And yes Joe, you bring up a good point. We can no longer tell by sight which corns are "pure" and which ones are not." Rich Z
"Hopefully there won't be too much damage control to have to go through... I've notified the buyers I've sold ultra-line hatchlings to (with the exception of a petstore which insisted that all corns were hybrids anyway... they may be right, at this rate)... it's up to them whether they feel it's necessary to return the snakes... not much more I can do on my end. I don't envy any of the larger breeders who got caught up in this..."Kat
"I'd just like to say "I don't care." Not one bit. Not even a teensy tiny amount. If it hatches, sheds, looks, breeds, eats, sleeps, craps, and acts like a cornsnake, it is a cornsnake.
I find this whole "purist" thing ridiculous. I know it hasn't really had much discussion in this particular thread, but it always comes up in such discussions and I'm sure it'll come into this one too. I think the whole concept is like trying to define "cool" and then acting like everyone else is wrong or evil because they don't agree with your arbitrary definition. Like I said, ridiculous.
Can someone please define what a "pure" corn is? I mean--if you could know anything you wanted about a particular corn, including it's complete genotype, or any/all of its ancestors, all the way back to single-celled organisms if you want, or whatever--what criteria would determine whether or not it's "pure?"Serpwidgets
"There are a lot of issues to consider in everyone’s mines concerning the current issue at hand. Do we ignore information that a particular line of Mutant Corns has hybrid Corns contained in its lineage? The majority of people would immediately answer no to that question. Is there a point in time or multiple generations of creating project corns that an Ultra Caramel Corn would be considered a pure corn? Most people would say that if it is “known” that a hybrid was ever in its lineage then, NO!, exactly like Creamcicles....I have always been a purist in the past, but I am on the fence now. What are we really trying to accomplish with our Mutant Corns anyway. A Hypo Lav Caramel Bloodred Corn in no way resembles a wild caught Corn Snake, genotypically or phenotypically. We can argue that when the Hypo Lav Caramel Bloodred Corn is bred to a wild corn snake that the normal phase looks just like a Corn Snake. When Kat bred her Ultramel Motley Corn Snake to my Lava Corn, the offspring looked just like a Corn Snake as well. What is the difference. Something is “known“. What do your really “know”?
__________________
Joe Pierce
CornSnakesAlive!
"Clint has a very good point. At this point in time, I feel that the Ultra gene originated in Corn Snakes and the Ultra “Ambers” were a result of hybridization. There are a couple of reasons that I believe this to be the case. Falcon has maintained that the original female that produced the Ultra Hypo was wild caught. I just got off of the phone with Carlos, who lives in Florida and has actually talked to Falcon at the time and has seen this wild caught Corn Snake. Carlos, told me that Falcons story was very believable and he saw this snake himself and it looked like a pure Corn Snake to him
Although Falcon has always maintained that the origin of the Ultra Hypo gene was a wild caught Corn, I do not see how he could not have any knowledge that the Ultra “Amber” line was a hybrid. He has Ultra “Ambers” from Shivers and he was friends with Barr. I suppose that it is possible that he had no idea, but is seems very unlikely...Andy Barr did breed hybrid Corn and Rat crosses and now Shivers has admitted that the Ultra “Amber” line was a result of Andy’s hybrid Corns. I also have information that the “Frosted” Corns that Andy sold were also a result of Hybrids. This leaves very little room for doubt that the Ultra Amber line is hybridized"Joe Pierce
CornSnakesAlive!
"To echo what's been said already, I don't believe that hybrid corns are wrong or inferior, and it's certainly likely that alot of existing corns probably have one or more non-corn ancestor if you trace back far enough" Kat
"Now, as most of you could easily do the math, you know that within 12 years you can have a "corn" from a 50/50 mix at 98.437% pure.
This is if the snakes are bred at two years of age, which many people do.
corn to rat... each breeding thereafter to "pure" corn
F1: 50/50
F2: 75/25
F3: 87.5/12.5
F4: 93.75/6.25
F5: 96.875/3.125
F6: 98.437/1.562"..Jimmy Johnson
.......Draybar
. Draybars Snakes
"I have avoided Hybrids in the pass, because of the label that can be attached to a breeder who has them. This label is not fair. A breeder of pure corns, or both hybrids and corns can be just as honest or dishonest as the next guy. I guess my point in my previous post is that I feel that “Pure” Corns, at least of the mutant type, are most likely a myth. Trying to keep them as pure as possible is very respectable and I will always do my part to keep them pure. I also realize that what we are trying to obtain is an absolute impossibility under current conditions and past practices. Since I know this, I think that if somebody wants to have hybrids they should be respected as well as the Hybrid Morph. I have a feeling that the Ultra Caramels will go down the same road as Creamsicle Corns.
I have never heard anybody ever say that they did not like Goldust Corns in the past. They are very beautiful and perhaps better in many ways than Amber Corns. Even Rich Z, seemed to be impressed by them and participated in naming them. I am sure that everybody is anxiously waiting to see what his opinion is about the current situation with the Goldust Corns. He can send them to me if he doesn’t want them. "Joe Pierce
CornSnakesAlive!
"It is not known where this particular gene came from. It is only known the effect it has on the phenotype. There is no such thing as a "pure cornsnake gene." No gene belongs to any one species...This is a circular argument against hybrids. They are bad because they are bad.
I agree: that is the best argument that can be made against them. It isn't even an argument" Serpwidgets
Agreed, many genes are shared between related species and that very relatedness is what allows them to breed and produce viable offspring.
"Any Corn Snake Mutant morph could be hybridized, by breeding it to a Gray Rat Snake. The Amel gene originated in Corn Snakes, but the Creamsicles are a result of a hybrid cross. The Amel gene did not originate from this cross and I do not believe that the Ultra Hypo did either.
I am not sure why anybody would say that the Ultra Hypo is a hybrid, except that they will certainly be tainted in many peoples minds because they will believe that if the Ultra Caramels (Goldust) are hybrids then the Ultras are suspect as well. They will most likely be lumped into the same group. The Goldust Corns are the corns that have been focused on as a hybrid, not the genotype of Ultra hypo.
There can be Ultras that are not hybrids and Ultras that are. No different than an Amel Corn and Creamsicle Corn. If an Ultra Hypo came from a lineage prior to the Goldust, then they could be “pure”. If you bred a Goldust to a normal Corn and then recover the Ultra Hypo gene from this cross, you would get the genotype of Ultra Hypo, but the phenotype would be a Hybrid.
Another possibility could be that the wild caught corn that carried the Ultra gene in one way or another was bred to a Gray Rat Snake which would have produced a hybrid without producing an Ultra Corn in the first place. I do not believe this was the case."Joe Pierce
CornSnakesAlive!
"I'm willing to believe that the ultra line has ratsnake hybridization in it not just because of what MS said... but rather from what I've seen in pictures and seen in my own experience... The headshape is slightly different, the behavior is slightly different... the eggs have been on the large side, and the hatchlings have been on the more aggressive side. Even if not all ultras are hybrids, the line I have most likely is, and since the one I have came from Shiver... well, the evidence I see fits. There's not enough there for me to come to the conclusion of 'hybrid' on my own, but with the statement made of their lineage... yeah, I'd believe it.
-Kat"
"I have asked Mike Shiver to provide information about these snakes so many times its not funny. I have gotten different stories on each occasion. I do not believe a word he says. I will share some of the emails when you guys are ready.
__________________
Mike Panichi"
"The original story I heard from Mike Falcon was that the Ultra Hypos came from a wild caught animal that they ("they" is not defined at this point) thought was a naturally occuring hybrid. But later on, "they" decided that it was not. Not having seen the animal itself, nor a photograph...The head shape in the Ultra Hypos I have worked with are nowhere near the "ratsnake" look that I saw in those Frosted Corns I got from Andy Barr when they matured....The babies I have produced from the Ultra Hypos/GoldDust line have not been excessively aggressive. Actually, if you want to use that as a hybrid marker, then you cannot exclude this consideration from the Sunkissed line, as they are EXTREMELY aggressive. And the head shape is quite at variance with what is typical in corn snakes, more like a kingsnake than anything else."
" Rich Z
"This says that the original female was bred to a grey rat/corn cross.
That would be a 50/50 to the original Ultra female making the original F1's from that female 75/25 corn.
This was supposedly the early '90's right?
So, if each subsequant generation was bred to "pure" corns that would mean that by now these snakes would be at a minimum of 98 % corn snake. And more likely to be 99% Corn.
that is 98 to 99 % pure corn.
is 100% the only allowable percentage. Do we know this exists?" Jimmy Johnson
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13577&page=31
"I don't disrespect people just for disagreeing with me, but there are many ideas that I definitely do not respect. The whole "pure" thing is one of them." Serpwidgets
"So now we know what and why Carlos did what he did lets get back to the main topic of this thred. Well , well , well so what do we have here does any rember me Vinman.I warned everbody out there a few months ago about corns being contaminated with other snakes genes. I have seen 3/4 corns that look like pure corns so what about 7/8 & 9/10 ect. So he who laughs last laughs the loudest. "VINMAN
"Quite frankly, I am not jumping just when anybody posts a rumor somewhere and automatically accepting it as the truth. I consider the credibility of someone who tells me something is NOT a hybrid, so why wouldn't I do the same for someone who makes an unsubstantiated "out of the blue" claim that something IS a hybrid? Especially when this person has for YEARS claimed that it is NOT a hybrid? At which point was this person telling the truth? Or does he even KNOW the truth? I have run the BOI for long enough to know that there are all kinds of motivations for why people do the things they do. Not saying this is the case with Mike Shiver, but I have seen my fill of people who like nothing better then to just cause trouble and conflict. And, in my opinion, right now there is an unknown motivation behind this "revelation" about the Ultras, which makes me skeptical of accepting anything at face value." RICH Z
On the other side of this same coin, suppose this same taxonomist makes a sufficient case that emoryi (as well as the Kisatchie - sp?) are simply locality variants of Elaphe g. guttata (yeah I know about Pantherophis, but I am not inclined to use that name)? Then all of a sudden the "crosses" with guttata and emoryi are now ok?
Take this all with a grain of salt. You can take a firm stand, but you may be standing on quicksand. Everyone is at the complete mercy of what someone else may have done 20 years ago that is represented in the stock you now have. I heard rumors of a guy that bred many of the tricolors and the way he kept them was in huge outdoor pits. They all interbred together and he sold off those babies for years based simply on what they looked like. This is not a comfirmed story, but I heard it from several sources.
So "purity" is an ideal that may not even be realistic any longer." Rich Z
"A "pure" thing of any species doesn't exist in nature, it only exists in our minds. How precisely can you or anyone else define a "pure" cornsnake? Whatever that definition is, I assure you it is arbitrary, so even then it is a matter of opinion...
IMO if it looks, eats, acts, lives, and breeds like what you expect from a cornsnake, then it is a cornsnake, regardless of if there is some "impure blood" in its ancestry. In fact, as you said, you never do know in the first place, so how is it bad if you don't know in the second place?...We are changing the "species" either way. Look at the captive population compared to the wild population... it's obvious that our selection pressures are very different from natural selection pressures. We are in the process of reshaping the captive population to match our tastes, and everyone who breeds is doing so in their own direction. We are heading toward snakes that will be as different from their wild counterparts as dogs are from wolves. Since all of our tastes as breeders differ, on what grounds can anyone claim the authority to say that their idea of how the species should be changed is the "correct" one?" Serpwidgets
"I definitely lean toward the "hybrid" side of the "scales" (no pun intended). I am really partial to them. I think they are beautiful animals, and I feel as if I should be able to produce them if I choose to. " CORNCRAZY
"Interestingly Darin, your example of the purebred dog registry is a good one, but it may be worth noting that many livestock (cattle and sheep - I am not sure about others) will actually accept 'upgraded' livestock into the registry. A commercial producer who has crossbred animals of no confirmed pedigree can breed them to pure bulls through several generations (I believe 7/8 pure is what is required in the progeny) and they will then be considered purebred and acceptable to the registry, and considered pure for future registration purposes." VanderKM
Interestingly enough, I've heard the same thing from many breeders of animals other just bulls.
"I'm not a big fan of purebreed anything. Sure they're pretty, but about all they're good for is a show. Every purebreed animal I've ever had has had some sort of genetic defect and ended up dying on me, or had to be euthanized. Purebreed to me = inbred. Everything I currently own is a mut and they're all the much healthier for it I believe; cats, dog, ferret, goats, bird, etc. So who's to say that by mixing in a smidgeon of a very very closely related (and maybe genetically identical) isn't bad to add new genes to the mix? I've seen what inbreeding peacocks can do, you end up with short-legged birds, birds with mental problems (yes it happens), and chicks that die days after hatching due to skeletal deformities. "Taceas
"Jim Stelpflug has done many emoryi crosses, including Butter and emoryi. You can check out some pics on his site if you follow this link:
Southwest Wisconsin Reptiles
ButterCream, CandyCream and SunCream come to mind."Clint Boyer
" Once mankind touches anything in nature, it is no longer "natural" anyway, if I understand the meaning of that word. So if I take a corn snake out of the wild, and control what other corn snakes it will mate with, are the offspring still "natural"?" Rich Z
"I often get customers who tell me they prefer my "natural" okeetees over all of the "un-natural" morphs. I have always felt that, even though I have (as far as I can determine) kept my okeetee lines pure okeetee, they are still not much more natural than an amel corn. I certainly have been choosing (for MANY generations) very different criteria than Mother Nature would have chosen to continue the line. Selectively bred okeetees certainly are much brighter and more appealing (to the average person, anyway) than a typical wild-caught specimen.
There are some people who argue against amels and other "mutants" as vehemently as others argue against hybrids. Personally, I don't think there is a truly "natural" corn in my collection, except for one wild-caught animal that I have, and he has a little white spot on him, but I guess it occured "naturally" in his case. So I don't see huge differences here. As long as these are more or less domestic animals, and will never be released into the wild, I can only see why keepers would want to KNOW the heritage of their animals, not why they would be so much against somebody producing any particular type. There are several breeds of dogs that I think are really ugly, but I am not against somebody breeding and keeping them!" Kathy Love
"Most biologists aver that there is no really pure species, since everything is always changing and evolving. Any individual is only a snapshot of the group in time, and not a perfect definable example of a species anyway.
If hybidizing happens at all, then there is no such thing as "pure."
__________________
Austin Herpetological Society" Shaky
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9769&page=9
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"Now Mike tells me that the female was unrelated to the Ultra line so it shouldnt have produced any Ultras!!!? I'll leave that for you guys to hammer out."mike panic
"I dont really wont to dampen anyones spirits but i do know that the whole line originated from snowcorn x greyrat.I believe they were called greysnows.I used to have pics of some snows Andy reproduced, they had that awesome yellow way more than any others i have ever seen.I do know that over the years Rich has purchased snakes from Andy and some from this line.I cannot tell you the entire background of the ultra hypos but i do know they originally came from this line.Also if you will notice the males are always the nicest ones kind of like the nicest hypo lavs are the males.Could they be related?Makes you wonder.Do you think the lavenders could have derived from this?
Mike”Originally Posted by ecreipeoj
"Hmm, interesting.....
The only way that animals Andy Barr is (was?) working with could be the same Caramel line that I am, is if he released related stock carrying this gene near the Cape Coral, Florida area (near Ft. Meyers), and that mom and pop pet shop where I bought the original female this line came from, was one of those animals.
"As for the animals I purchased from Andy Barr, yes, at one of the earlier Tampa shows, I did purchase a group of babies from Andy that he had displayed on his table. At the time I grilled him about he ancestry, and the ones I was interested in (which he called "Frosteds") he swore were pure corns. Others on his table he indicated were from a gray rat x corn snake project. I bought a couple pairs of Snow Frosted and Anerythristic Frosteds from him at that time....Now after a couple of years of raising up the survivors, I became more and more convinced that they really were not pure corns. I don't believe I ever did breed them, and once I came to this conviction I wanted nothing more then to just get rid of them. Don Soderberg offered to take them, so I made him a really good deal on the entire group, and off they went. End of that story."Rich Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Z
It appears that all of the things I have been told cannot all be true in light of this admission by Mike Shiver. The question is, what exactly IS the truth?
Another question is how many times has this same situation occurred but has gone undiscovered? How many times has animals such as these been sold as Space Garbage and then become a breeder in someone’s collection or it shows up in a pet shop? Is the lack of knowledge that a line may have non-pure corns in its background; enough to say our corns are pure? Are we kidding ourselves?
A few hours ago, Ultra Caramels were pure and now? If this information did not surface, they would be pure tomorrow. Are they any less beautiful? Will they be considered along the lines of Creamcicles now? How many offspring are out there from the Ultra Caramel line? I have an Ultramel het Lavender and many other people have offspring with similar lineage. What do you think of my Ultramel het Lavender now?
__________________Joe Pierce
CornSnakesAlive
"Well, I guess a decision of what to believe and from whom, is in order. At one point Mike Shiver told me the line he was working with are pure corns. Now he is saying they are not.
This indicates a credibility problem......
And yes Joe, you bring up a good point. We can no longer tell by sight which corns are "pure" and which ones are not." Rich Z
"Hopefully there won't be too much damage control to have to go through... I've notified the buyers I've sold ultra-line hatchlings to (with the exception of a petstore which insisted that all corns were hybrids anyway... they may be right, at this rate)... it's up to them whether they feel it's necessary to return the snakes... not much more I can do on my end. I don't envy any of the larger breeders who got caught up in this..."Kat
"I'd just like to say "I don't care." Not one bit. Not even a teensy tiny amount. If it hatches, sheds, looks, breeds, eats, sleeps, craps, and acts like a cornsnake, it is a cornsnake.
I find this whole "purist" thing ridiculous. I know it hasn't really had much discussion in this particular thread, but it always comes up in such discussions and I'm sure it'll come into this one too. I think the whole concept is like trying to define "cool" and then acting like everyone else is wrong or evil because they don't agree with your arbitrary definition. Like I said, ridiculous.
Can someone please define what a "pure" corn is? I mean--if you could know anything you wanted about a particular corn, including it's complete genotype, or any/all of its ancestors, all the way back to single-celled organisms if you want, or whatever--what criteria would determine whether or not it's "pure?"Serpwidgets
"There are a lot of issues to consider in everyone’s mines concerning the current issue at hand. Do we ignore information that a particular line of Mutant Corns has hybrid Corns contained in its lineage? The majority of people would immediately answer no to that question. Is there a point in time or multiple generations of creating project corns that an Ultra Caramel Corn would be considered a pure corn? Most people would say that if it is “known” that a hybrid was ever in its lineage then, NO!, exactly like Creamcicles....I have always been a purist in the past, but I am on the fence now. What are we really trying to accomplish with our Mutant Corns anyway. A Hypo Lav Caramel Bloodred Corn in no way resembles a wild caught Corn Snake, genotypically or phenotypically. We can argue that when the Hypo Lav Caramel Bloodred Corn is bred to a wild corn snake that the normal phase looks just like a Corn Snake. When Kat bred her Ultramel Motley Corn Snake to my Lava Corn, the offspring looked just like a Corn Snake as well. What is the difference. Something is “known“. What do your really “know”?
__________________
Joe Pierce
CornSnakesAlive!
"Clint has a very good point. At this point in time, I feel that the Ultra gene originated in Corn Snakes and the Ultra “Ambers” were a result of hybridization. There are a couple of reasons that I believe this to be the case. Falcon has maintained that the original female that produced the Ultra Hypo was wild caught. I just got off of the phone with Carlos, who lives in Florida and has actually talked to Falcon at the time and has seen this wild caught Corn Snake. Carlos, told me that Falcons story was very believable and he saw this snake himself and it looked like a pure Corn Snake to him
Although Falcon has always maintained that the origin of the Ultra Hypo gene was a wild caught Corn, I do not see how he could not have any knowledge that the Ultra “Amber” line was a hybrid. He has Ultra “Ambers” from Shivers and he was friends with Barr. I suppose that it is possible that he had no idea, but is seems very unlikely...Andy Barr did breed hybrid Corn and Rat crosses and now Shivers has admitted that the Ultra “Amber” line was a result of Andy’s hybrid Corns. I also have information that the “Frosted” Corns that Andy sold were also a result of Hybrids. This leaves very little room for doubt that the Ultra Amber line is hybridized"Joe Pierce
CornSnakesAlive!
"To echo what's been said already, I don't believe that hybrid corns are wrong or inferior, and it's certainly likely that alot of existing corns probably have one or more non-corn ancestor if you trace back far enough" Kat
"Now, as most of you could easily do the math, you know that within 12 years you can have a "corn" from a 50/50 mix at 98.437% pure.
This is if the snakes are bred at two years of age, which many people do.
corn to rat... each breeding thereafter to "pure" corn
F1: 50/50
F2: 75/25
F3: 87.5/12.5
F4: 93.75/6.25
F5: 96.875/3.125
F6: 98.437/1.562"..Jimmy Johnson
.......Draybar
. Draybars Snakes
"I have avoided Hybrids in the pass, because of the label that can be attached to a breeder who has them. This label is not fair. A breeder of pure corns, or both hybrids and corns can be just as honest or dishonest as the next guy. I guess my point in my previous post is that I feel that “Pure” Corns, at least of the mutant type, are most likely a myth. Trying to keep them as pure as possible is very respectable and I will always do my part to keep them pure. I also realize that what we are trying to obtain is an absolute impossibility under current conditions and past practices. Since I know this, I think that if somebody wants to have hybrids they should be respected as well as the Hybrid Morph. I have a feeling that the Ultra Caramels will go down the same road as Creamsicle Corns.
I have never heard anybody ever say that they did not like Goldust Corns in the past. They are very beautiful and perhaps better in many ways than Amber Corns. Even Rich Z, seemed to be impressed by them and participated in naming them. I am sure that everybody is anxiously waiting to see what his opinion is about the current situation with the Goldust Corns. He can send them to me if he doesn’t want them. "Joe Pierce
CornSnakesAlive!
"It is not known where this particular gene came from. It is only known the effect it has on the phenotype. There is no such thing as a "pure cornsnake gene." No gene belongs to any one species...This is a circular argument against hybrids. They are bad because they are bad.
I agree: that is the best argument that can be made against them. It isn't even an argument" Serpwidgets
Agreed, many genes are shared between related species and that very relatedness is what allows them to breed and produce viable offspring.
"Any Corn Snake Mutant morph could be hybridized, by breeding it to a Gray Rat Snake. The Amel gene originated in Corn Snakes, but the Creamsicles are a result of a hybrid cross. The Amel gene did not originate from this cross and I do not believe that the Ultra Hypo did either.
I am not sure why anybody would say that the Ultra Hypo is a hybrid, except that they will certainly be tainted in many peoples minds because they will believe that if the Ultra Caramels (Goldust) are hybrids then the Ultras are suspect as well. They will most likely be lumped into the same group. The Goldust Corns are the corns that have been focused on as a hybrid, not the genotype of Ultra hypo.
There can be Ultras that are not hybrids and Ultras that are. No different than an Amel Corn and Creamsicle Corn. If an Ultra Hypo came from a lineage prior to the Goldust, then they could be “pure”. If you bred a Goldust to a normal Corn and then recover the Ultra Hypo gene from this cross, you would get the genotype of Ultra Hypo, but the phenotype would be a Hybrid.
Another possibility could be that the wild caught corn that carried the Ultra gene in one way or another was bred to a Gray Rat Snake which would have produced a hybrid without producing an Ultra Corn in the first place. I do not believe this was the case."Joe Pierce
CornSnakesAlive!
"I'm willing to believe that the ultra line has ratsnake hybridization in it not just because of what MS said... but rather from what I've seen in pictures and seen in my own experience... The headshape is slightly different, the behavior is slightly different... the eggs have been on the large side, and the hatchlings have been on the more aggressive side. Even if not all ultras are hybrids, the line I have most likely is, and since the one I have came from Shiver... well, the evidence I see fits. There's not enough there for me to come to the conclusion of 'hybrid' on my own, but with the statement made of their lineage... yeah, I'd believe it.
-Kat"
"I have asked Mike Shiver to provide information about these snakes so many times its not funny. I have gotten different stories on each occasion. I do not believe a word he says. I will share some of the emails when you guys are ready.
__________________
Mike Panichi"
"The original story I heard from Mike Falcon was that the Ultra Hypos came from a wild caught animal that they ("they" is not defined at this point) thought was a naturally occuring hybrid. But later on, "they" decided that it was not. Not having seen the animal itself, nor a photograph...The head shape in the Ultra Hypos I have worked with are nowhere near the "ratsnake" look that I saw in those Frosted Corns I got from Andy Barr when they matured....The babies I have produced from the Ultra Hypos/GoldDust line have not been excessively aggressive. Actually, if you want to use that as a hybrid marker, then you cannot exclude this consideration from the Sunkissed line, as they are EXTREMELY aggressive. And the head shape is quite at variance with what is typical in corn snakes, more like a kingsnake than anything else."
" Rich Z
"This says that the original female was bred to a grey rat/corn cross.
That would be a 50/50 to the original Ultra female making the original F1's from that female 75/25 corn.
This was supposedly the early '90's right?
So, if each subsequant generation was bred to "pure" corns that would mean that by now these snakes would be at a minimum of 98 % corn snake. And more likely to be 99% Corn.
that is 98 to 99 % pure corn.
is 100% the only allowable percentage. Do we know this exists?" Jimmy Johnson
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13577&page=31
"I don't disrespect people just for disagreeing with me, but there are many ideas that I definitely do not respect. The whole "pure" thing is one of them." Serpwidgets
"So now we know what and why Carlos did what he did lets get back to the main topic of this thred. Well , well , well so what do we have here does any rember me Vinman.I warned everbody out there a few months ago about corns being contaminated with other snakes genes. I have seen 3/4 corns that look like pure corns so what about 7/8 & 9/10 ect. So he who laughs last laughs the loudest. "VINMAN
"Quite frankly, I am not jumping just when anybody posts a rumor somewhere and automatically accepting it as the truth. I consider the credibility of someone who tells me something is NOT a hybrid, so why wouldn't I do the same for someone who makes an unsubstantiated "out of the blue" claim that something IS a hybrid? Especially when this person has for YEARS claimed that it is NOT a hybrid? At which point was this person telling the truth? Or does he even KNOW the truth? I have run the BOI for long enough to know that there are all kinds of motivations for why people do the things they do. Not saying this is the case with Mike Shiver, but I have seen my fill of people who like nothing better then to just cause trouble and conflict. And, in my opinion, right now there is an unknown motivation behind this "revelation" about the Ultras, which makes me skeptical of accepting anything at face value." RICH Z
NiklasTyreso
New member
That is why we need a breeding standard that defines the standard traits of captive cornsnakes.
Is it just me that feels that angry, musking and snakeating snakes have got to much undesireble traits from other species?
It is time to leve the hybrid discussion behind. A true captive cornsnake is a cornsnake that fits the cornsnake breeding standard, independent of its origin.
SnakeAround
Formerly Blutengel
Amen to that!
dave partington
Crazy Dave
While I don't mind it being a bit off-topic, the number of relevant posts towards making an agreement about what's pure and what's not can be counted on one hand.
No agreement was made 20 years ago.
Carpe, you seem to like that sciency stuff. Here's a base formula to play with.
Bon apetit!
Nanci
Alien Lover
"Quite frankly, I am not jumping just when anybody posts a rumor somewhere and automatically accepting it as the truth. I consider the credibility of someone who tells me something is NOT a hybrid, so why wouldn't I do the same for someone who makes an unsubstantiated "out of the blue" claim that something IS a hybrid? Especially when this person has for YEARS claimed that it is NOT a hybrid? At which point was this person telling the truth? Or does he even KNOW the truth? I have run the BOI for long enough to know that there are all kinds of motivations for why people do the things they do. Not saying this is the case with Mike Shiver, but I have seen my fill of people who like nothing better then to just cause trouble and conflict. And, in my opinion, right now there is an unknown motivation behind this "revelation" about the Ultras, which makes me skeptical of accepting anything at face value." RICH Z
Pertains to Tesseras, IMO.
Pertains to Tesseras, IMO.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Very valid thought process and another reason I think dna testing to prove parents would be useful and scary at the same time. No matter how many generations if something that was deemed as impure snuck into the pool the progeny would all be too easily identified. After reading so many peoples thoughts on the matter though I have to lean even more to the side of those that say, " If it looks like a corn and acts like a corn in temperament does then it must be a corn." If you drop of milk falls in the ocean is the ocean milk or is it still the ocean?
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Originally Posted by Carpe Serpentis
So "purity" is an ideal that may not even be realistic any longer." Rich Z
This would resolve many issues as well if this happened.
So "purity" is an ideal that may not even be realistic any longer." Rich Z
This would resolve many issues as well if this happened.
airenlow
hope is not a strategy
There are a few members here that say w/c Okeetees are some of the meanest snakes around. :eatpointe
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Another thought, is the desire to keep ones stock labeled as pure along with the lack of dna testing to prove parents helping anyone? Is there a motive to not know or be able to trace the lineage of ones snakes 100% back to the wild? Even with DNA testing to determine parents, would that preclude someone from "finding" a wild specimen that was not pure by whatever standard is agreed upon? is the desire to keep ones stock labeled as pure possibly motivation for not uncovering a hybrid origin of a line? I look at all of these questions and realize the only thing that makes any sense to me is to have a standard as so many others have already said or to simply breed and be known by the quality of ones work whether they be the most beautiful hybrids the world has ever seen or the creation of the worlds meanest line of sunkissed Okeetees.
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
No kidding. And really, I've never once been concerned that a reputable seller was offering me babies that weren't from the parents they were claiming.
This has been my experience.
They aren't the most prone to feeding response bites, but they are sure defensive for a while. Pretty much every locality Okeetee baby tail rattles, triangle heads, and bites and musks when picked up. They grow out of it with some handling, and probably even without it. But whereas 9 out of 10 "regular" corns are calm babies, maybe one out of ten early generation okeetees were for me. At any rate, I wouldn't dare suggest that defensive behavior is influenced by other species. I think a lot of it has just been bred out of captive lines.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
A paternity test only proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the parents are who one says they are. It eliminates the possibility of retained semen or parthenogenesis as being the culprit of one of the babies if used as a breeder and paternity tested. It also makes tracking of ones line, lineage, or pedigree beyond repute. If any foreign gene or even an undesired gene of corn origin is found, it enables one to quickly track the origin of that gene into the pool. Dna also helps to keep track or even find carriers of a heterozygous trait so as to make possible heterozygous specimens proven heterozygous specimens that can then be traced to other progeny to produce more known or suspected heterozygous specimens than might otherwise be uncovered. Dna also allows the sexing of snakes to enable one to more accurately determine sex. Dna testing eliminates immaculate misconceptions. As for Chips comment about breeding defensive behavior out of wild caught corns, I have no doubt that some breeders would not also like to select for the best behaved corns so to speak whether it is intentional or not.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
A picture of a coupling simply does not prove that another snakes retained semen is not the culprit of the baby or parthenogenesis for that matter. If ones reputation is not beyond repute due to the slandering of another breeders rumors, etc... dna testing proves those rumors false as the progeny can all be linked to their respective parents beyond a reasonable persons doubt. Or conversely, if one has a reputation beyond repute, it allows a light to be shown on heterozygous traits that the breeder may have known about or suspected, but not listed. The dna testing gains value the further one goes with it or the longer the lineage is of that corn. Can you imagine if through dna testing one could prove all of your corn snakes lineage beyond a shadow of a doubt to their wild caught specimens the value that might have both in sales as well as the ability to track new or exciting morphs that might arise in your lines? Imagine finding out that the retained semen of a previous breeding was responsible for even a single baby in your clutch or that parthenogenesis was responsible for even a single baby in your clutch. These are the things that dna testing could prove or help one discover if used on the breeders alone. Dna testing could allow one to make earlier decisions on which to keep from a breeding if one knew 100% that the snake you were dealing with was 100% the sex and result of the breeding you wanted. If you found out otherwise, it might also affect your decision on what to breed your hatchling with later on saving you time and embarrassment if sold as one thing when in fact it was not what you thought.
airenlow
hope is not a strategy
And all based on a paternity test???
bitsy
Owned by Corns since 1991
Who's going to pay for DNA testing? The market's already saturared with the current non-certified Corns. Would buyers seriously pay another $200 on top for a DNA-confirmed Corn? That must be a very small and specialist market.
It's not like breeding is so lucrative that costs could be borne by the breeder.
It's not like breeding is so lucrative that costs could be borne by the breeder.