Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns

[Nanci]

What percentage of people buying a pet cornsnake even care about any of that, though? I would imagine the "serious breeders" are a very tiny percentage of all snake owners.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Who's going to pay for DNA testing? The market's already saturared with the current non-certified Corns. Would buyers seriously pay another $200 on top for a DNA-confirmed Corn? That must be a very small and specialist market.

It's not like breeding is so lucrative that costs could be borne by the breeder.

Thats the beauty, your not going to have to charge $200 dollars for a dna confirmed corned. Your only going to have to pay for the paternity test for the parents or breeders if you will. If your 100% certain your breeding is as you say it is then the cost of getting the babies dna tested/proven will fall on the new owners if they choose to get their line proofed if you will back the parents. This can be done before or after purchase. If before purchase, then yes they are going to have to pay extra for that testing. If not, then as long as you keep your breeders and hold back breeders tested your line is secure. I've seen testing done for as low as 17 dollars. So even if you tested all of your snakes your only looking at charging a few dollars more and not 200 dollars more unless you have a particularly impressive pedigree dna proven and you think that warrants a markup.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

What percentage of people buying a pet cornsnake even care about any of that, though? I would imagine the "serious breeders" are a very tiny percentage of all snake owners.

Anyone concerned that hybrid dna was leaking into their pure gene pool or anyone that wanted to be 100% certain they were getting a boy or girl , snake would be interested I imagine. Those interested in being able to track heterzygous specimens back to their founding member would also be interested in such testing. Never mind those doing this would have a reputation above reproach as rumors are not stronger than dna testing.

 

[beautifullywild77]

But how do we know if the parents are not hybrids... There would be no point in doing a paternity test if you know for sure who the parents are.

People can lie about the grandparents or what not. paternity test includes DNA from the baby and the parents.

I guess I just don't understand the reasons for paternity test, if you are going to pay to test your snakes you might as well save up and do the DNA test on what species are in the snake, not who the parents are.

 

[MysticExotics]

I skimmed yor post, but this quote here:

"I'm not a big fan of purebreed anything. Sure they're pretty, but about all they're good for is a show. Every purebreed animal I've ever had has had some sort of genetic defect and ended up dying on me, or had to be euthanized. Purebreed to me = inbred. Everything I currently own is a mut and they're all the much healthier for it I believe; cats, dog, ferret, goats, bird, etc. So who's to say that by mixing in a smidgeon of a very very closely related (and maybe genetically identical) isn't bad to add new genes to the mix? I've seen what inbreeding peacocks can do, you end up with short-legged birds, birds with mental problems (yes it happens), and chicks that die days after hatching due to skeletal deformities. "Taceas

There's different lineages of ferrets, but not different breeds that are crossed. There's no crosses between a Black Footed Ferret, which is a cousin to the domestic ferret & would also be illegal.
There's private bred ferrets & commercial/mill ferrets -mass produced by big ferret breeders-all of the ferrets you see in pet stores come from these types of "breeders". There are private ferret breeders who work with different lines, but they're not "mutts". All of my ferrets are private bred as opposed to the commercial bred/store bought ferrets. They are selectively bred for better health, as opposed to for just looks, like the pet store ferrets.
My ferrets have pedigree papers & some come from lines that are show champions.

You should probably know more about the topic of the quotes if you're going to post them.

That is why we need a breeding standard that defines the standard traits of captive cornsnakes.

Is it just me that feels that angry, musking and snakeating snakes have got to much undesireble traits from other species?

It is time to leve the hybrid discussion behind. A true captive cornsnake is a cornsnake that fits the cornsnake breeding standard, independent of its origin.

That's quite an assumption, on your part. Where's your information backing that musking & snake eating snakes are from other species?
It's an individual personality thing. You can have a variety of personalities in a single clutch. It does not indicate that they have bloodlines from other species.

There are a few members here that say w/c Okeetees are some of the meanest snakes around. :eatpointe

What he said. Okeetees originated as a locality, & have been known to have mean temperments.

No kidding. And really, I've never once been concerned that a reputable seller was offering me babies that weren't from the parents they were claiming.



This has been my experience.

They aren't the most prone to feeding response bites, but they are sure defensive for a while. Pretty much every locality Okeetee baby tail rattles, triangle heads, and bites and musks when picked up. They grow out of it with some handling, and probably even without it. But whereas 9 out of 10 "regular" corns are calm babies, maybe one out of ten early generation okeetees were for me. At any rate, I wouldn't dare suggest that defensive behavior is influenced by other species. I think a lot of it has just been bred out of captive lines.

Between knowing reputable breeders, & the ACR, I see no need for DNA testing.

A paternity test only proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the parents are who one says they are. It eliminates the possibility of retained semen or parthenogenesis as being the culprit of one of the babies if used as a breeder and paternity tested. It also makes tracking of ones line, lineage, or pedigree beyond repute. If any foreign gene or even an undesired gene of corn origin is found, it enables one to quickly track the origin of that gene into the pool. Dna also helps to keep track or even find carriers of a heterozygous trait so as to make possible heterozygous specimens proven heterozygous specimens that can then be traced to other progeny to produce more known or suspected heterozygous specimens than might otherwise be uncovered. Dna also allows the sexing of snakes to enable one to more accurately determine sex. Dna testing eliminates immaculate misconceptions. As for Chips comment about breeding defensive behavior out of wild caught corns, I have no doubt that some breeders would not also like to select for the best behaved corns so to speak whether it is intentional or not.

If you have doubts that the baby is not what the breeder says it is, then maybe you need to find a different breeder.

Who's going to pay for DNA testing? The market's already saturared with the current non-certified Corns. Would buyers seriously pay another $200 on top for a DNA-confirmed Corn? That must be a very small and specialist market.

It's not like breeding is so lucrative that costs could be borne by the breeder.

This.

 

[MysticExotics]

Thats the beauty, your not going to have to charge $200 dollars for a dna confirmed corned. Your only going to have to pay for the paternity test for the parents or breeders if you will. If your 100% certain your breeding is as you say it is then the cost of getting the babies dna tested/proven will fall on the new owners if they choose to get their line proofed if you will back the parents. This can be done before or after purchase. If before purchase, then yes they are going to have to pay extra for that testing. If not, then as long as you keep your breeders and hold back breeders tested your line is secure. I've seen testing done for as low as 17 dollars. So even if you tested all of your snakes your only looking at charging a few dollars more and not 200 dollars more unless you have a particularly impressive pedigree dna proven and you think that warrants a markup.

Anyone concerned that hybrid dna was leaking into their pure gene pool or anyone that wanted to be 100% certain they were getting a boy or girl , snake would be interested I imagine. Those interested in being able to track heterzygous specimens back to their founding member would also be interested in such testing. Never mind those doing this would have a reputation above reproach as rumors are not stronger than dna testing.

So are you going to be the one to tell someone like Don S. that he should DNA test all of his breeder snakes, otherwise buyers might not trust that what he's selling is in fact true?
He's got a good reputation for a reason. As do many other breeders.

If someone wants to do DNA tests on their own snakes, thats their choice, I highly doubt this is something you will see well-known reputable breeders doing.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

A paternity test only proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the parents are who one says they are. It eliminates the possibility of retained semen or parthenogenesis as being the culprit of one of the babies if used as a breeder and paternity tested. It also makes tracking of ones line, lineage, or pedigree beyond repute. If any foreign gene or even an undesired gene of corn origin is found, it enables one to quickly track the origin of that gene into the pool. Dna also helps to keep track or even find carriers of a heterozygous trait so as to make possible heterozygous specimens proven heterozygous specimens that can then be traced to other progeny to produce more known or suspected heterozygous specimens than might otherwise be uncovered. Dna also allows the sexing of snakes to enable one to more accurately determine sex. Dna testing eliminates immaculate misconceptions. As for Chips comment about breeding defensive behavior out of wild caught corns, I have no doubt that some breeders would not also like to select for the best behaved corns so to speak whether it is intentional or not.

A paternity test will not tell you all of that.

It will take a significant amount of DNA testing with a good bit of money spent to establish that level of data.

Who on earth is going to be able to afford that?

 

[bitsy]

Thats the beauty, your not going to have to charge $200 dollars for a dna confirmed corned. Your only going to have to pay for the paternity test for the parents or breeders if you will. If your 100% certain your breeding is as you say it is then the cost of getting the babies dna tested/proven will fall on the new owners if they choose to get their line proofed if you will back the parents. This can be done before or after purchase. If before purchase, then yes they are going to have to pay extra for that testing. If not, then as long as you keep your breeders and hold back breeders tested your line is secure. I've seen testing done for as low as 17 dollars. So even if you tested all of your snakes your only looking at charging a few dollars more and not 200 dollars more unless you have a particularly impressive pedigree dna proven and you think that warrants a markup.

A paternity test and DNA sequencing designed to identify genetic species markers, are two entirely different things. I can imagine that a paternity test is quite cheap (although I'm not sure any court would accept the results of a $17 dollar test!) but the level of analysis which would identify non-Corn DNA in an alleged "pure" Corn (or prove the absence of it) would be far more involved and expensive.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I'm not talking about paternity tests and its nothing new or special. Many breeders do employ the use of dna tests outside of the snake world. I think many have missed the point I am trying to make. Quite simply, a dna test can establish beyond a reasonable doubt paternity and sex. Other than that, the rest is assuming the original snake were "pure" and as for how do you figure out possible hets or known hets using a dna pedigree.... it is as simple as following back a lineage that is dna proven to a common ancestor and observing that a, b, c, x, y, z greatgrandbabies all are proven to carry that trait. While perhaps that trait was not recognized in the parents or even the originators of the trait.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

The above should be I am talking about paternity test, not dna sequencing or mapping. Wish there was an edit feature, but there you go.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

So, where is:

Quite simply, a dna test can establish beyond a reasonable doubt paternity and sex. Other than that, the rest is assuming the original snake were "pure" and as for how do you figure out possible hets or known hets using a dna pedigree.... it is as simple as following back a lineage that is dna proven to a common ancestor and observing that a, b, c, x, y, z greatgrandbabies all are proven to carry that trait. While perhaps that trait was not recognized in the parents or even the originators of the trait.

is coming from? A paternity test will not even get close to telling you those things.

Those things require DNA testing and really in depth amount. That is much more than a fiddly $17 paternity can tell.

Want an edit button and other perks? Become a contributing member! Click here.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

A paternity test will not tell you all of that.

It will take a significant amount of DNA testing with a good bit of money spent to establish that level of data.

Who on earth is going to be able to afford that?

You are very right a dna test will not in and of itself tell you all of that, but it will tell others that information who could figure out this information without the use of dna testing. Dna testing for paternity merely proves that there were no mishaps and all of your own data that you have collected through test breeding, etc. is accurate. There is a reason other breeders outside of the snake world utilize dna testing. Dna testing without accurate record keeping is nothing more than a long line of proven parents.

 

[Lennycorn]

Wish there was an edit feature, but there you go.

If you wish to spent the money, you can click on the sentence in orange at the top of the page and have such a feature.

Want an edit button and other perks? Become a contributing member! Click here.

 

[bitsy]

But why would that help? We're discussing the presence of hybrid genes in existing bloodlines. At some point, for your paternity test strategy to work, someone has to start with a pool of DNA-sequenced breeding Corns which can be proven hybrid-free. You can't just paternity test existing Corns. If they're carrying unknown hidden hybrid genes, then they'll be carried down to the offspring. The paternity test will just show that particular offspring came from two particular parents. If the parents haven't been proven hybrid-free by more detailed DNA testing, then the paternity test gets you nowhere.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

But why would that help? We're discussing the presence of hybrid genes in existing bloodlines. At some point, for your paternity test strategy to work, someone has to start with a pool of DNA-sequenced breeding Corns which can be proven hybrid-free. You can't just paternity test existing Corns. If they're carrying unknown hidden hybrid genes, then they'll be carried down to the offspring. The paternity test will just show that particular offspring came from two particular parents. If the parents haven't been proven hybrid-free by more detailed DNA testing, then the paternity test gets you nowhere.

How would it help? Simply put, it would not help unless an agreed upon standard was already in place. This means, already established lines would have to be grandfathered in bases on a general consensus that we trust those breeders and hope for that trust to be well deserved. Any new corn snakes found in the wild would then have to be vetted by experts and while nothing is perfect, thats a perfect a system as I can personally see and given the hoopla that I have seen and read repeatedly about suspect this or that... it could put an end to some or all of that ideally. But then who really knows what is pure anyways? Who is going to be the golden standard or set the golden standard?

 

[BloodyBaroness]

But why would that help? We're discussing the presence of hybrid genes in existing bloodlines. At some point, for your paternity test strategy to work, someone has to start with a pool of DNA-sequenced breeding Corns which can be proven hybrid-free. You can't just paternity test existing Corns. If they're carrying unknown hidden hybrid genes, then they'll be carried down to the offspring. The paternity test will just show that particular offspring came from two particular parents. If the parents haven't been proven hybrid-free by more detailed DNA testing, then the paternity test gets you nowhere.

This. Bisty is 100% correct.

A paternity test ONLY gives a confirmation of parentage. It does not tell you anything beyond that unless you pay for all the extra DNA work ups.

 

[Nanci]

A picture of a coupling simply does not prove that another snakes retained semen is not the culprit of the baby or parthenogenesis for that matter.

I know. That was my point.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

How would it help? Simply put, it would not help unless an agreed upon standard was already in place. This means, already established lines would have to be grandfathered in bases on a general consensus that we trust those breeders and hope for that trust to be well deserved. Any new corn snakes found in the wild would then have to be vetted by experts and while nothing is perfect, thats a perfect a system as I can personally see and given the hoopla that I have seen and read repeatedly about suspect this or that... it could put an end to some or all of that ideally. But then who really knows what is pure anyways? Who is going to be the golden standard or set the golden standard?

So who is paying for the thousands of dollars worth of DNA profiling required to accomplish that? Also who is paying for registry to be built and maintained?

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

This. Bisty is 100% correct.

A paternity test ONLY gives a confirmation of parentage. It does not tell you anything beyond that unless you pay for all the extra DNA work ups.

I will agree with you here in part as it is true in part. The rest comes from accurate detailed notes of phenotypes and genotypes as they are figured out by the breeder sometimes generations later and that detailed record can then be extrapolated to help you figure out some of the unknown hets in a long dead parent or in a long since retired breeder. Given a paternity tested lineage that goes back a significant distance, one can eventually figure things out like for instance... who might be a carrier for star gazer and who might be stargazer free etc.

 

[bitsy]

How would it help? Simply put, it would not help unless an agreed upon standard was already in place. This means, already established lines would have to be grandfathered in bases on a general consensus that we trust those breeders and hope for that trust to be well deserved. Any new corn snakes found in the wild would then have to be vetted by experts and while nothing is perfect, thats a perfect a system as I can personally see and given the hoopla that I have seen and read repeatedly about suspect this or that... it could put an end to some or all of that ideally. But then who really knows what is pure anyways? Who is going to be the golden standard or set the golden standard?

If designed to assure hybrid-free bloodlines, standards based on trust aren't worth the paper they're written on.

What if a reputable breeder has a Butter which they earnestly believe to be pure, but they don't realise that it's derived from Ultra bloodlines, which have the suspicion of hybrid hanging over them? That breeder could register it as a standard pure Corn in all good faith, and everyone would believe them.

The only way of proving a Corn "pure", is to run a full DNA sequence (and that assumes the existence of a DNA library for other snake species as comparators to identify hybrid components). Standards in the way you're proposing, are pointless for that. Standards in this situation can only effectively be used to set visual traits and desirable physical attributes which can be observed and/or measured.