• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Random thought

atmox said:
Actually if you see the skulls of the ancient ape specie where the human is thought to decent from and all the skulls in between it's not such an huge change between each skull. It's not like there is one skull from an ape and our current skull. Every skull (and skeleton) is the result of an adaptation.

Just a question to people who know the bible, is there a story of all of humanity originating from adam and eve or am i wrong here? Just trying to remember and it annoys me if i can't remember something that is stuck in my head.
Click to expand...

1. The differences in skull may be subtle, but you have an entire skeleton to consider, and other differences such as internal structure, DNA and so forth.
Again, I totally believe in evolution, I personally don't buy it that the progress to this point all occurred by chance is all.

2. Technically, yes, the entirety of humanity derived from Adam and Eve. There's also a tale about Lilith, but that's in the Talmud/Kabalah. According to the Torah itself, Adam and Even were the first, and therefore founders, of the human race.

theorem said:
“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.”
Click to expand...

That's a really over-simplified statement and it really doesn't apply to all forms of religion.
 
Kokopelli said:
1. The differences in skull may be subtle, but you have an entire skeleton to consider, and other differences such as internal structure, DNA and so forth.
Again, I totally believe in evolution, I personally don't buy it that the progress to this point all occurred by chance is all.

2. Technically, yes, the entirety of humanity derived from Adam and Eve. There's also a tale about Lilith, but that's in the Talmud/Kabalah. According to the Torah itself, Adam and Even were the first, and therefore founders, of the human race.



That's a really over-simplified statement and it really doesn't apply to all forms of religion.
Click to expand...

So we're all inbreds? xD Maybe that's why we changed so hard, that's no evolution, that's just a handicap. (Just kidding)

It's by chance that we turned out the way we did but the changes were triggered by changes in the natural environment, this forced monkeys to walk on 2 legs and later makes their brains their main weapon, forcing them to evolve it. Due to changes of the brain our skull changed. Our skeleton and internal structure didn't change that much but i believe it's still changing, we still have a tail bone and an organ that we don't use (don't know the English name) and some scientists think our little toe might start go away.
Speaking over DNA, we have a hell of a lot DNA in common with an other strain of apes that is believed to descent from the same monkeys we do (they got separated at some point and their environment let them evolve in an other way) I don't know how much exactly but it was 98% i think.
 
atmox said:
So we're all inbreds? xD Maybe that's why we changed so hard, that's no evolution, that's just a handicap. (Just kidding)

It's by chance that we turned out the way we did but the changes were triggered by changes in the natural environment, this forced monkeys to walk on 2 legs and later makes their brains their main weapon, forcing them to evolve it. Due to changes of the brain our skull changed. Our skeleton and internal structure didn't change that much but i believe it's still changing, we still have a tail bone and an organ that we don't use (don't know the English name) and some scientists think our little toe might start go away.
Speaking over DNA, we have a hell of a lot DNA in common with an other strain of apes that is believed to descent from the same monkeys we do (they got separated at some point and their environment let them evolve in an other way) I don't know how much exactly but it was 98% i think.
Click to expand...

The environment did not force the monkey's to walk on two legs, but the ones which were able to and did so had better chances on survival, so they survived and reproduced and their offspring gained the ability from them and copied their parents doing it and so on. It's a slight difference but I feel it is an important difference because it is all about spontaneous mutations surviving better than the regular form of a gene.

further; go Atmox, go Atmox :)
 
I'm aware of the similarities, and again, you aren't really proving anything by re-affirming the existence of evolution- as I said several times already, I am a firm believer. The only difference is that you call it chance and I call it divine guidance.
 
Kokopelli said:
I'm aware of the similarities, and again, you aren't really proving anything by re-affirming the existence of evolution- as I said several times already, I am a firm believer. The only difference is that you call it chance and I call it divine guidance.
Click to expand...

See i understand people like you, but i don't understand why anybody would say that evolution didn't happen. Saying that the big bang happened because of god and men originated by divine guidance (through evolution) i can say you're wrong. But people who say the earth originated 6000 years ago are like kids to me who put their fingers in their ears and go "NANANANANA..." for their entire lives.
 
Mnyah... I know quite a few of those.
I have had religious folk argue with me that snake's gestation lasts 7 years because it's written somewhere in the Kabalah or Talmud.
My reply is usually, "well, I guess my snakes haven't read that chapter yet".
 
Kokopelli said:
Mnyah... I know quite a few of those.
I have had religious folk argue with me that snake's gestation lasts 7 years because it's written somewhere in the Kabalah or Talmud.
My reply is usually, "well, I guess my snakes haven't read that chapter yet".
Click to expand...

Well that would be cheap on food!
 
Human and ape ancestors were prosimian creatures not monkeys. Monkeys have their own evolution tree as do lemurs and the like from prosimians as well. Great apes evolved in conjunction with hominids. These misplaced terms bother me. I'm reading Lucy: The Beginnings of Humankind; anthropology is an interesting field.
 
Dreamsnake said:
Human and ape ancestors were prosimian creatures not monkeys. Monkeys have their own evolution tree as do lemurs and the like from prosimians as well. Great apes evolved in conjunction with hominids. These misplaced terms bother me. I'm reading Lucy: The Beginnings of Humankind; anthropology is an interesting field.
Click to expand...

i may sound like a hypocrite but i know they aren't apes but i can't remember that name to save my life (let alone in 2 languages)
 
Carinata said:
Here's my opinion on Christianity, Christians say that god is watching over them and will protect them, but when they cross the street they still look both ways. This proves that they have a false sense of faith. They don't believe themselves when they say god protects them, because they still have to look both ways. If they were really representative of their faith they would allow god to just stop the semi trucks!
Click to expand...

Haven't we gone over your over generalizations before?

Just because I believe in God, and that he will protect me. In no way means that I should not try to protect my self by taking precautions when I am able. I personally would rather not be run over by a car, so I look both ways. I therefore lessen my chances of getting hit by said car. People who do not look both ways and yield to speeding vehicles, are idiots, in my opinion.

I have been in situations that I know, the only way I got out of them, was through Gods grace. It is hard to play chance when an RPG, (Rocket Propelled Grenade) For those who do not know the acronym, is flying at your head, just to miss you by mere feet.

So yes, in my mind, God protected me through my deployments to Afghanistan. And, that Golden BB did not find me. There have been many times growing up, where I came close to loosing my life. And, more than a few times I have had a guiding voice keep me out of troublesome areas.
 
That could be confirmation bias, though. Statistically, some people will return from a situation that doesn't have a 100% mortality. Some of those individuals will have come very close to death, but did not die. In a case like that, the person who experienced it could find it divine intervention, and I don't really have a problem with that.

But it is still based on a bias. Someone who had never heard of God before that moment would not suddenly assume that a higher power had kept them safe. It is only the pre-existing belief shoehorning events in to fit that belief. It's not unusual or even inherently bad, but I don't think that it's very honest.
 
I agree with you Nova. I just had a conversation today at school about evolution. Some people look around and see the divine creation, others see evolution at work, and some see a mixture between the two. The guiding hand of God, controlling the tool, evolution.
I happen to be in the third group of people.

I knew a guy who was on a team with some spec ops guys. As they got out of the cave they were clearing, an insurgent popped out from behind a bush and fired an RPG. One of the men got hit square in the chest, but he RPG never went off.

Yes there is a chance that it was a dud, but with the fuses that are used in those things, it is few and far between. Those things are dangerous enough, that when my fellow EOD guys find them, and cannot tell if they had been fired, we blow them up right where we find them. Because, the slightest movement can set them off, after being fired.
Even though there was a chance of duding out, I still see the hand of God at work. You have more of a chance getting attacked by a shark, or struck by lightening, than getting hit by a dud RPG.
 
"That could be confirmation bias, though. Statistically, some people will return from a situation that doesn't have a 100% mortality. Some of those individuals will have come very close to death, but did not die. In a case like that, the person who experienced it could find it divine intervention, and I don't really have a problem with that.

But it is still based on a bias. Someone who had never heard of God before that moment would not suddenly assume that a higher power had kept them safe. It is only the pre-existing belief shoehorning events in to fit that belief..."

I have to agree. I think a lot of people are bolstered by their belief / faith, and I wouldn't want to take that from them. BUT, logically, if you see a miracle of God in saving you - for some unknown reason - in a narrow escape, then you would also have to believe the inverse to be true. Such as, that somebody (maybe a loved one) who DID die in a weird, unlikely, circumstance was singled out by God to die that way, also for some unknown reason. That seems much less comforting than the first situation.

I always thought that if there really is a God (in the omniscient, omnipotent way we usually think of Him), then He would want us to use the logic that He gave us, to the best of our abilities. To me, it seems that evolution is a pretty solid "theory". BUT - what started the "big bang" or whatever began it all? I don't know. Maybe it could have been random, given enough time. Or maybe by the hand of some supreme intelligence (God?). Maybe such a supreme being set up the rules for physics, evolution, etc, and then went about some other business? I don't feel that humans have the capacity to know that at this time. I am open to evidence one way or the other. But personally, it seems to me that God wouldn't give us logic, and then want us to toss it out in favor of faith when trying to figure out the meaning of life, or any other important idea. It just doesn't make sense to me to think that way.

If somebody has faith that they know the answer, and it makes their life and those around them better, then I am very happy for them. If it makes their life (and those around them) worse, then I see it as a problem. I am all for everyone doing whatever suits them as long as it doesn't hurt others. And if it helps others, then I am even more supportive of whatever seems to work for them.
 
Well, have any of you had an experience that you just cannot explain via "common sense" or "logic"?

Here's one I posted on another site a while back:
Man, I absolutely got goose bumps reading this. I've had a similar experience and also had similar thoughts about it. I doubt I have mentioned this to more than a handful of people in the 40 some years since it happened.

I am 60 years old now. I guess I was maybe 17 or so years old and had just recently gotten my driver's license. I was living in Maryland at the time. My mom let me take her car (a '61 Pontiac Bonneville) and like most kids that day and age, I just wanted to take a DRIVE. No destination in mind, just experiencing the new found freedom of WHEELS.

I was driving down Harford Road heading towards town and had gotten in the left hand turn lane to make a left onto Cold Spring Lane. I was able to make the turn without stopping so I had turned the wheel to make the left hand turn when I heard a car horn to my left. Like a dumbass I turned to look to see if someone was beeping at me, while right in the middle of that turn. Now there was a drug store on the right side of Cold Spring, and if I remember correctly, a used car lot on the left. Hell, I can't remember what I did yesterday, but this is all so vivid in my mind.... Anyway, after I had turned looking for the source of that car beeping it's horn, I turned my head back to look forwards and to my horror I saw that I had turned too wide and I was about to smash into a parked car on the right hand side of the road. It was just getting to be dark and I had the headlights on, and all I could see in front of me was the back end of that parked car. All I could see were it's taillights and license tag with NO room to spare. I don't know how fast I was going, but certainly faster than I should have. Anyway, I KNEW there was no way to avoid hitting that parked car so all I did was SHUT MY EYES and think "Mom is going to KILL me!" I did not hit the brakes nor turn the wheel. I knew neither would make any difference at all as close as I was to that parked car.

Next thing I knew I opened my eyes and I was PAST that parked car, maybe about 100 feet, maybe going 10 or 15 miles per hour. I pulled over to the side of the road and just sat there dumbfounded and shaking like a leaf. I don't know about any lost time but I swear my memory is of it being LIGHTER out than it was when I started making that turn. Maybe my eyes were just dilated in shock.... When I could bring myself to drive again, I headed right back on home and didn't say a word to anyone about that incident. But I have thought about it constantly over the years.

I have absolutely NO idea what happened. There was just no way in hell I could have missed hitting that parked car. I didn't even TRY to avoid it because I knew my goose was cooked, but good. Of course I tried to come up with all sorts of explanations. Did I unconsciously whip the wheel to the left and miss the parked car? With my eyes closed? And then whipped it back again to put me straight on the road instead of plowing into that used car lot? Heck, I drove back to that intersection MANY times afterwards to try to figure it out, and nothing seemed possible. I couldn't have done anything to miss that parked car. But yet I did and I did NOTHING at all to make that happen. I had my eyes closed and was clenching the steering wheel with all my might waiting for the impact. That never came.....

Yeah, I often wondered if I had actually died in that car crash that day. And perhaps when that happens my consciousness simply "switched channels" to "something, somewhere else". Another copy of me and my life where I didn't make that dumbass mistake that killed me. Pretty much an unprovable theory. I had no witnesses. All I know is that an impossible event happened that I just cannot explain. And even at this late date, I sure wish I could...... But I'm not about to go out and purposely try to test any theory such as this. Even more terrifying, what will happen if I should be laying in my death bed from some terminal illness. Will I be there FOREVER in that death bed, never really dying, just "switching channels" again to another version of me that still keeps on living.
Click to expand...

It's part of this rather interesting thread -> http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread693715

Now granted, that site has some pretty off the wall stuff, but there are actually some discussions that get the grey matter to smoking...

Anyway, to this day I have no explanation for what happened. There is no rational reason I can come up with as to how I could NOT have hit that parked car. But at least it seems that others have experienced the same thing.
 
Well Rich, some things are better left unexplained as simply accepted as is. None of us will ever really "know" until we do, and no amount of discussion or theorizing will ever really change it.
 
Nova_C said:
That could be confirmation bias, though. Statistically, some people will return from a situation that doesn't have a 100% mortality. Some of those individuals will have come very close to death, but did not die. In a case like that, the person who experienced it could find it divine intervention, and I don't really have a problem with that.

But it is still based on a bias. Someone who had never heard of God before that moment would not suddenly assume that a higher power had kept them safe. It is only the pre-existing belief shoehorning events in to fit that belief. It's not unusual or even inherently bad, but I don't think that it's very honest.
Click to expand...

I see your logic,
On the reverse though, I would like to remind that no single culture on the face of the planet has not exhibited SOME sort of worship towards a higher power. It doesn't matter if it's a pantheon like the Norse or Greek Gods, Spirits or whatever.

People tend, from the very early days, to associate phenomena of great power which they do not understand, with the supernatural/divine.

So... While I can agree to degree that some of our reactions are the outcome of biased education, believing in a higher power precedes modern society and has accompanied man-kind since it's very beginning.

It is simply not as easy to impress us anymore. Once...the ocean, the mountain, fire, storms, the sun, the moon... these were all gods to be worshiped.

So yes, we may be biased. But believing in a higher -something- is deeply rooted into mankind and proof for that can be seen in examining every single culture, regardless of how ancient.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top