Random thought

[Kokopelli]

If there's something I really fail to fully understand is why do people feel that if another person believes something different, it somehow contests his own personal beliefs- and not only that, but some are so driven that they will try to disprove the others' beliefs.

I fully believe in evolution. I do. I also believe in God though, because personally I feel that it is a miracle that the universe always aspires to be at balance with itself(homeostasis) which just so happens to be necessary for the existence of life.

Balance between predator and prey populations, concentration of chemical substances and so forth- and if one overflows over the other, a new balance will eventually occur.

I believe in evolution completely, I also believe that it is guided by God- I don't buy it that the chain of events that led to where we are today is just random. I believe, based on some fact, that life require very specific conditions to exist... and the abundance of dead planets around us is a proof to that.

The God described in the bible is not the God I believe in. I do not consider him an accountant that has nothing better to do than weight my every thought and condemn me for it. I do not believe he needed to bring a child to this planet as his son and I certainly do not believe that some cosmic rule forced a situation where said child had to die on the cross in order to absolve mankind.
I do believe that a person called Jesus existed, and I do believe he should be appreciated and everyone has allot to learn from his messages... even in the face of the face that I am Jewish.

I honestly feel that the bible was written for OUR sake, and it has served that purpose and instilled some measure of fear against hurting one another.... beyond that, some have taken advantage of the bible/new testament to gain power and wealth, and impose a stasis because it suits them and serves their personal gain. I see no other reason why religious organizations opt for political and financial power(and boy do they ever).

I don't know how it is for Christians... but for Jews, Hassidic men are taught that the spoken Torah(the unwritten, passed through generations sacred knowledge) is just as important as the written one... basically, somewhere in the past, a bunch of people translated the Torah and they know better than yourself what the Torah means and what you're supposed to learn from it...
This entire concept is unacceptable by me.

I honestly don't care what others feel though... most of the time, I think that many beliefs do not contradict each other as much as people make them out to be... and usually, those who insist that they do, are following man(or woman) dictated ideas rather than the bible itself.

I don't recall reading in the bible that the universe was created 5000 years ago.... nor that Adam and Eve didn't look like apes at first for that matter- the moment certain factions began to take charge of how people translated the writings for themselves, and started restricting it to narrow points of view... that's when people all over the world, who believe in a creating force that is good and righteous(regardless of the name you wish to give Him) , started slaughtering one another.

 

[SnakeAround]

Still I see a difference between any god worshipping religion and the 'belief in evolution'.
Evolution has many existing proofs, though of course many stil miss. I don't know of any god worshipping religion that actually has proofs for it being true. Now that is why it is called a belief, and evolution is not. The fact that some people choose to compare those two in a way of 'probability' and decide that for them the existence of a creator is more probable than the evolution theory being true, does not turn the evolution theory into a belief. Those people just ignore the proofs that do exist for evolution, and prefer to believe something else. I'm fine with that, but don't go telling me that the evolution theory is a belief just because you decide it is. I think I can have loads of fun with that way of thinking.

 

[Shiari]

For me, having someone close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears when faced with the overwhelming evidence for how evolution happens (small changes over time due to selective pressures; I will not argue divine intervention or not, don't care about that) and when faced with evolution the occurence (changes over time leading to branching of species slowly into new forms that eventually genetically distinct) just baffles me. It's childish. Evolution does NOT have to challenge ones belief in a deity. All it does is challenge testable claims. However, I guess if people have built the entirety of their belief system on the edge of an unstable cliff, they're going to cling to that certainty even more... but when it crumbles.... yeesh.

 

[Lavender]

That sounds like something useless grant would say.

 

[atmox]

Now this is a random thought and quote:

"I tawt I taw a puddy tat!
I did, I did taw a puddy tat!"
~tweety bird

 

[Kokopelli]

Still I see a difference between any god worshipping religion and the 'belief in evolution'.
Evolution has many existing proofs, though of course many stil miss. I don't know of any god worshipping religion that actually has proofs for it being true. Now that is why it is called a belief, and evolution is not. The fact that some people choose to compare those two in a way of 'probability' and decide that for them the existence of a creator is more probable than the evolution theory being true, does not turn the evolution theory into a belief. Those people just ignore the proofs that do exist for evolution, and prefer to believe something else. I'm fine with that, but don't go telling me that the evolution theory is a belief just because you decide it is. I think I can have loads of fun with that way of thinking.

Science doesn't -really- give proof to evolution though. It gives a series of facts and links them together logically. You can't physically proof that one life form transformed into the next- you can't really see it happen. You show facts and piece them together logically.
Science doesn't really know why the big bang occurred or what preceded that, it doesn't have even the slightest idea why life formed from substance(said primordial ooze) and so forth.
It doesn't mean that it happened as by magic- I believe that an explanation will be provided at some point, all I am saying is that it took one hell of a coincidence to arrive from that to where we are now.... and I don't buy it as being a stroke of luck.... but that's really a personal belief, and it doesn't have to clash with anyone else's.

 

[Kokopelli]

For me, having someone close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears when faced with the overwhelming evidence for how evolution happens (small changes over time due to selective pressures; I will not argue divine intervention or not, don't care about that) and when faced with evolution the occurence (changes over time leading to branching of species slowly into new forms that eventually genetically distinct) just baffles me. It's childish. Evolution does NOT have to challenge ones belief in a deity. All it does is challenge testable claims. However, I guess if people have built the entirety of their belief system on the edge of an unstable cliff, they're going to cling to that certainty even more... but when it crumbles.... yeesh.

Not always... sometimes it what they were taught... and allot of people are too scared to nip at their own belief systems because it can cause instability.
On the other hand though, who cares what another person believes? As long as it doesn't impose me in any way, more power to them.

It's the organized religion that I have a few issues with.

 

[SnakeAround]

Science doesn't -really- give proof to evolution though. It gives a series of facts and links them together logically. You can't physically proof that one life form transformed into the next- you can't really see it happen. You show facts and piece them together logically.
Science doesn't really know why the big bang occurred or what preceded that, it doesn't have even the slightest idea why life formed from substance(said primordial ooze) and so forth.
It doesn't mean that it happened as by magic- I believe that an explanation will be provided at some point, all I am saying is that it took one hell of a coincidence to arrive from that to where we are now.... and I don't buy it as being a stroke of luck.... but that's really a personal belief, and it doesn't have to clash with anyone else's.

Ok, that's true. But still that is more than there is to ground the idea of a creator. I do understand the idea that the complicated 'systems' we and other beings are build of are way too complex and adapted to be the result of a series of coincidences, yet the fact that we are not able to grasp it, does not make me think it cannot be true. Honestly to me the idea of some divine creator who put all of this together is even less easy to grasp. What form is it? Where and what is it? How come it can 'live' for so long? I stick with the theory that has some grounds to begin with

 

[atmox]

Ok, that's true. But still that is more than there is to ground the idea of a creator. I do understand the idea that the complicated 'systems' we and other beings are build of are way too complex and adapted to be the result of a series of coincidences, yet the fact that we are not able to grasp it, does not make me think it cannot be true. Honestly to me the idea of some divine creator who put all of this together is even less easy to grasp. What form is it? Where and what is it? How come it can 'live' for so long? I stick with the theory that has some grounds to begin with

This reminds me of Hans Teeuwen:
How do you know it's true?
- Well it's written.
And how do you know everything that's written is true?
- That's also written
Well here is something completely different written *Takes book* Look: "God doesn't exist"

 

[Kokopelli]

Ok, that's true. But still that is more than there is to ground the idea of a creator. I do understand the idea that the complicated 'systems' we and other beings are build of are way too complex and adapted to be the result of a series of coincidences, yet the fact that we are not able to grasp it, does not make me think it cannot be true. Honestly to me the idea of some divine creator who put all of this together is even less easy to grasp. What form is it? Where and what is it? How come it can 'live' for so long? I stick with the theory that has some grounds to begin with

Again, this ends up being a debate between "deliberate intervention" and "chance"... I honestly don't mind anyone believing differently than me though... and God doesn't care more about me than he does about someone who doesn't believe in him as far as I am concerned so... really, it's all good.

I don't like it when people try to convince you that you're wrong though... and when that doesn't work, they just try use scare tactics that you're a heathen.

I have yet to see a religious fanatic that did too much good in the world. I saw men and women of faith doing so, yes. But never people who forcefully tried to convert others.

 

[SnakeAround]

I don't mind too, but I do like a good debate with a person who has different views than me yet is able to understand other peoples reasoning. I do understand your reasoning but have different values, that is ok indeed. I also agree about people using scare tactics, it is no good, especially when used on children.

 

[Shiari]

Actually, evolution and the beginnings of speciation have been observed. And we have, in the veterinary field, seen a new "species" emerge. Species is in quotes there for two reasons: one, viruses are technically not 'alive'. and two, we don't know exactly which strain it mutated from.

And that is the parvovirus that infects dogs. It likely either came from a type that infects cats (98% identical), or one that infects raccoons and foxes. The cat one is more likely.

This virus developed a mutation that made it different enough to jump hosts, and because dogs had no exposure to this before the 1970s, they are decimated by it. Untreated, 9 out of 10 dogs die of it.

Other examples: bacteria that can eat nylon and rubber and paint. They evolved that trait.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

A particularly important bit from the above article:

"In 2008, Lenski and his collaborators reported on a particularly important adaptation that occurred in one of the twelve populations: the bacteria evolved the ability to utilize citrate as a source of energy. Wild type E. coli cannot transport citrate across the cell membrane to the cell interior (where it could be incorporated into the citric acid cycle) when oxygen is present. The consequent lack of growth on citrate under oxic conditions is considered a defining characteristic of the species that has been a valuable means of differentiating E. coli from pathogenic Salmonella."

 

[Dreamsnake]

The Galapagos finch is evolving before our very eyes if you care to open them and look. There is arsenic based life in Mono Lake. Life is in a constant flux. I had to have three teeth pulled because they couldn't fit into my slim jaw. Only three because one of my wisdom teeth never grew. Evolution. Is there any need for the appendix? No. Evolution. Why is it that whales have hip bones? At some time they had legs. Refusing to see evidence does not dispute the fact that life has evolved and continues to do so.

 

[Lavender]

We have had monkeys in cages for 6000 years and not a one of them have rubbed off their tale and started teaching in a university yet.

 

[Carinata]

Are we really still having this conversation?

 

[atmox]

We have had monkeys in cages for 6000 years and not a one of them have rubbed off their tale and started teaching in a university yet.

That's because evolution is the art of adapting to your environment.
So 1. They should have been 1 breeding group in the same cage for 6000 years.
2. They would evolve in a way to suit the cage, not to humans.

I think it's more logical that an animal who lives in trees and is forced by nature to a Savannah will learn to walk on 2 legs so he can see predators and food than the idea of some dude (or woman or whatever you wanna call it) creating a planet with live and billions more as scenery.

 

[atmox]

And boas still have evidence of legs, TADAH! Evolution.

 

[starsevol]

Are we really still having this conversation?

I'm still trying to figure out what a "tale" on a monkey is, I mean considering "tales" CAN'T be physically tampered with and the fact that monkeys can't talk and all.......

 

[Lavender]

Ok why don't somebody jump on that. Take a monkey, put in hmmm let's byu because monkey's are probably already poligamists any way. Any way put a monkey in a cage at byu every day. At least by the time we are 80 or 90 years old it should be saying mama and dada.

 

[atmox]

I was just thinking Christianity is based on people who heard and saw things that others didn't. If they would live now they probably would be locked in a mental facility with medication. Not insulting Jesus because i have respect for people who believe him but it's just the truth that he would be locked away now.

I think the bible has great stories but you should think what they are trying to say with it, don't take it literally.