stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

[dave partington]

Does it really matter? Not that I really took offense but it was completely inappropriate. No one needs to be calling anyone stupid.

I quite agree. Glad nobody called anyone a troll or some other name. Nobody can make themselves look good by trying to make someone else look bad. Except politicians, because they're pro's at it. I really need to hire me a wordsmith.

 

[beautifullywild77]

Actually, it wasn't Christen who called him a troll it was another member I believe.


Anyways, I do have an okeetee Cleo, who hates to cuddle with anyone human or reptile. She only will cuddle with her rodent long enough to think it is dead (silly girl, they are already dead lol)

 

[Christen]

I quite agree. Glad nobody called anyone a troll or some other name. Nobody can make themselves look good by trying to make someone else look bad. Except politicians, because they're pro's at it. I really need to hire me a wordsmith.

Well Sir you are no longer worth my time. I did not personally see Lyion calling him a troll wrong since it was obvious that his actions were exactly that. Have a nice day!

 

[Nanci]

Then everyone here is a troll, read back the last several pages.

In case anyone is confused,

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Thread drift is a natural progression, not intentional provocation. There's a difference, which I'm sure Americans and Europeans alike can understand.

 

[dave partington]

Half of this thread is off topic. I am a troll. I apologize.

 

[Nanci]

Did you even read what I wrote???

 

[SnakeAround]

I've always wondered what goes on totally unseen to who cohab and say it works fine for them.

BloodyBaroness, see above. Since we were talking about co-habbing and cannibalism, I took this as a suggestion that co-habbers won't tell if cannibalism happens in their collection but say it works just fine. I did however reread it and now I understand that he thinks that maybe co-habbing causes things to happen or change they do not notice. However, that goes for any snake keeper. Who knows what is going on unseen to non-co-habbers in their vivs? They can only watch and check their snakes to see if they are healthy/thriving, just like co-habbers can. Who knows what living in a plastic tub does to a snake unseen by its keeper? If non-co-habbers are assumed to be able to know when their snakes are thriving, why would co-habbers not?

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

The creation of hybrids does not enlarge the genetic pool, but rather taints it with foreign blood. Mass breedings of jungle corns and what not only pollutes the natural or pure corn genetic pool. The genetic pool is getting muckier and slushier with the selling and eventual breeding of hybrids.

I'm sorry, but this is blatantly false. Anytime you increase the genetic pool by increasing the members/species you are increasing the genetic pool of possibilities. I don't mind differences of opinions, but I will definitely state that a fallacy has occurred when a fallacy has occurred. In short, I don't short the truth/fact.:cheers:

 

[Shiari]

As mentioned many times before, over here in Europe it is a very common practice, many people reach their goals with healthy snakes whilst co-habbing.

So, how do these people prevent outbreaks of crypto running through their entire collection if they cohab?

 

[Chip]

BloodyBaroness, see above. Since we were talking about co-habbing and cannibalism, I took this as a suggestion that co-habbers won't tell if cannibalism happens in their collection but say it works just fine. I did however reread it and now I understand that he thinks that maybe co-habbing causes things to happen or change they do not notice.

I am so glad I read every post instead of quoting your original and replying from there! Yes, I mean UNSEEN. And sure, we don't monitor our solo snakes either, but they aren't having interactions with anything that can be negative (but their hide and water bowl, much to the chagrin of an earlier poster). There can't be a whole lot of stress in an enclosure where you are the only occupant. I have long felt that our snakes needed to exercise more than they do in captivity, and if I felt co-habbed snakes were more active, I would see that as the lone benefit for the animals. But judging from my breeders, when the deed is done, they can pretty much both be found under the same hide, whether it's noon or 3 AM.

 

[Shiari]

But judging from my breeders, when the deed is done, they can pretty much both be found under the same hide, whether it's noon or 3 AM.

Mine are usually squished as far apart from each other as they can be in the bins. My snakes do NOT "like" each other after the deed is done!

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

If you don't introduce no bacterium, there won't be no bacterium. The same goes for virus, parasite, or any other entity. The long and short of it is this... it takes one to make one or to contaminate one.
Now, to dress another issue... left unattended until now.... If you have a problem with a member stating, "I like hybrids." You might as well have a problem with that member saying, "I like ice cream." You have no real reason to take offense to another person stating something so simple as they like something or for that matter they dislike something... It is opinion after all and subject to various personal subjective criterion... nothing objective at all in either statement.

Now, can we all just agree to have differences of opinion? I wanna get to know each and every one of you in a positive light. Love is my religion and science is my medicine.

 

[screamindemon17]

America rules..... This thread is going forever ... Carpe keep fighting the fight. And i have cohabbed 4 females in a 55 gal for about 4 years and have had no problems. But im triing to make a rack to see how my snakes act in a individual habitat . All my males on the other hand are separated do to typical male dominance in most animals

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Now, can we all just agree to have differences of opinion? I wanna get to know each and every one of you in a positive light. Love is my religion and science is my medicine.

Yes to all of this.

:cheers:

 

[Shiari]

And i have cohabbed 4 females in a 55 gal for about 4 years and have had no problems.

Hope you don't have any crytp versions of "typhoid Mary" then.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Hope you don't have any crytp versions of "typhoid Mary" then.

Again, if you don't introduce a pathogen there won't be any. There are standard precautions to ensure that pathogens are not introduced into a community. One of these precautions include isolating new arrivals for a given period of time before introducing into the general population. Another of these precautions is never keeping all of your eggs in one basket... the same goes for snakes. You could say, that this is important when hybridizing as well. You don't want to simply rely on a corn female x king male.... you want to make king female x corn male cross of the same if possible for more than the simple reason of sex linked traits... Simply put you want to have more than one line of a given trait your working towards to help prevent inbreeding depression deformities/sterility. Again, you don't put all of your eggs in one basket.

Ideally, this means to keep from introducing pathogens you have a period of isolation before introducing a snake into your general population. Testing fecal matter, making bacterial and fungal cultures etc. Growing these out and looking at them under the microscope, preparing stained slides, etc. all help to ensure that your not introducing pathogens into your lines. The more important your projects are and the larger your collection is... the more important these things become. Even given these precautions, something may slip by.... again, never put all your eggs in one basket. Some... fine, but not all. Just my 21 cents on the matter. :eats02:

 

[screamindemon17]

My females are feed in sterile feeding containers . There tank substrate is changed weekly poo is cleaned daily most of the time.. it can still happen... I now. My very first male i got passed away today. Do to parasites..... I didnt catch on to his sickness until i noticed he was losing weight even until females are eating the same amount and shedding monthly. Im getting off topic sorry just in a mood about it. I should just be happy i bred him and got 2 clutches from him. None r bloodreds but they are het im going to keep one from each clutch.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

My females are feed in sterile feeding containers . There tank substrate is changed weekly poo is cleaned daily most of the time.. it can still happen... I now. My very first male i got passed away today. Do to parasites..... I didnt catch on to his sickness until i noticed he was losing weight even until females are eating the same amount and shedding monthly. Im getting off topic sorry just in a mood about it. I should just be happy i bred him and got 2 clutches from him. None r bloodreds but they are het im going to keep one from each clutch.

Sorry for your loss. I understand that you have taken precautions, but suffice it to say even with your precautions something snuck into your collection and that something did not simply spontaneously generate itself. You are also right that you should be happy you have two clutches from him. Something... is always better than nothing. Can you imagine how you might feel if you had a one of a kind morph, mutation, or hybrid line you were working on to stabilize and you lost the entire project? This is one reason why hybridizers never keep all of their eggs in one basket. Many of the most successful hybridizers/breeder work with at least one other hybridizer/breeder for this very reason. A mutation can be lost to the world if it is kept in one breeders hands and not distributed. :argue:

 

[ceduke]

Again, if you don't introduce a pathogen there won't be any. There are standard precautions to ensure that pathogens are not introduced into a community. One of these precautions include isolating new arrivals for a given period of time before introducing into the general population.

The snake in question was quarantined for three months. In fact, he did not show any signs of illness until TEN MONTHS after purchase. Until then, he was eatingm shedding, pooping, growing, THRIVING.

Even excellent quarantine practices are not foolproof when we're talking about a pathogen that can be present for a snake"s entire life without seeing clinical signs, while the snake sheds pathogens.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

For a hybridizer, it is especially important to first outcross. Second, inbreed and select for desired traits. Third, breed back into the desired population those desired traits while continually testing for the desired genes one is attempting to introduce to ensure they are not lost. This allows for new phenotypes to be developed. If a new phenotype is not developed, then there is no real point to hybridizing in my opinion. I know, there are many would disagree, but those arguments tend to go hand in hand with severely bottlenecked populations which I will not get into. The bottom line, hybridizing requires extensive work…. Just as line breeding does to stabilize a morph or a new mutation with non-hybrids. People will hybridize and people will select for traits such as color, pattern, and even temperament. If the ability to cohabit peacefully is selected for or lost is largely up to what the hybridizer or breeder finds important at that stage in his/her goals.